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chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Maxwell Lord posted:

I do think a consideration was, KB was easily the most stunt-heavy project he'd done up until that point. It's possible the logistical complexity of that contributed to a breakdown in communication. Since then his stuff has featured some more elaborate setpieces (Death Proof most prominently) and there haven't been reports of recklessness or unnecessary endangerment so I think whatever lesson he did need to learn, he has.

There was definitely some recklessness with a guitar on Kurt Russell's part recently...

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sponges
Sep 14, 2011



chitoryu12 posted:

There was definitely some recklessness with a guitar on Kurt Russell's part recently...

What a gently caress up that was haha

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


That was actually kinda funny.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Basebf555 posted:

There were limits to what the public would look the other way on though, even then. I remember a famous musician's career basically came to an end after he became engaged to like a 12 or 13 year old girl, I just can't remember what his name was.

Are you thinking of Gary Glitter, perhaps?

e: oh you said "engaged", yeah that's Jerry Lee Lewis, but that didn't end his career

sleep with the vicious
Apr 2, 2010


hmmm...lol at the people in this thread rushing to rationalize noted weirdo quentin tarantino defending child rape because in 2002 people didn't know that raping children was wrong, or at least it was morally gray. yes thats why polanski had to flee to europe because he was wanted for arrest, because people just didn't realize it was kinda weird to drug and rape a kid.

OR, try this one on: quentin tarantino doesn't care and is probably at minimum an enabler for sexual harassment. see, as evidence b: his long-term friendship with well-known sexual assault king harvey weinstein.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


sleep with the vicious posted:

hmmm...lol at the people in this thread rushing to rationalize noted weirdo quentin tarantino defending child rape because in 2002 people didn't know that raping children was wrong, or at least it was morally gray. yes thats why polanski had to flee to europe because he was wanted for arrest, because people just didn't realize it was kinda weird to drug and rape a kid.

OR, try this one on: quentin tarantino doesn't care and is probably at minimum an enabler for sexual harassment. see, as evidence b: his long-term friendship with well-known sexual assault king harvey weinstein.

You didn't read what people said, did you?

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


sleep with the vicious posted:

hmmm...lol at the people in this thread rushing to rationalize noted weirdo quentin tarantino defending child rape because in 2002 people didn't know that raping children was wrong, or at least it was morally gray. yes thats why polanski had to flee to europe because he was wanted for arrest, because people just didn't realize it was kinda weird to drug and rape a kid.

OR, try this one on: quentin tarantino doesn't care and is probably at minimum an enabler for sexual harassment. see, as evidence b: his long-term friendship with well-known sexual assault king harvey weinstein.

Yeah, this is what I'm driving at. He didn't care because the guy had effectively got away with it. It was unfathomable to even imagine someone that powerful would suffer any kind of consequence, therefore you get the chucklefuck cokeheads like Tarantino and MacFarlane with their mock nihilism, smirking and sneering and winking at everything, later claiming that they were just drawing attention to it in their own quirky way. Obviously it persisted in part because they know drat well where the power lies and would never challenge it because they have their own careers to think about.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

I suppose the larger question that goes unanswered is "why were so many people on the wrong side of the Polanski thing" 10 years ago? It's not like people thought raping children was good in 2007.

there was a sizable polanski defense squad in this very sub years back. not so much that what he did wasn't bad but that the judge was a big meanie for possibly rejecting the deal (which he should've, it was a poo poo deal) so polanski was justified in fleeing. their argument tended to be it was a one off thing but they never had a response when someone would bring up that after polanski fled to europe he started loving a 15 year old.

Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Feb 7, 2018

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





There was also that doc by a Polanski apologist that some people here took as gospel

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



When people argue that rape culture is not a real thing I just point towards one of the millions of cases where complete strangers will eagerly and vehemently defend accused rapists despite they themselves having virtually no skin in the game.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


Groovelord Neato posted:

there was a sizable polanski defense squad in this very sub years back. not so much that what he did wasn't bad but that the judge was a big meanie for possibly rejecting the deal (which he should've done it was a poo poo deal) so he was justified in fleeing. their argument tended to be it was a one off thing but they never had a response when someone would bring up that after polanski fled to europe he started loving a 15 year old.

Also, he hosed a 13 year old. If one is concerned about a judge 'making an example of you for loving a 13 year old' the problem is that you hosed a 13 year old.

Like, not a single defence of Polanski actually holds any water. All of them are people working backwards, Scalia style. They can't quite reconcile that a brilliant director did something so awful, and so they perform some mental gymnastics until it's not a big deal.

sponges
Sep 14, 2011



I still enjoy his films

Gargamel Gibson
Apr 24, 2014


Yeah, he raped some kids, but he's delightful in Rush Hour 3. Swings and roundabouts.

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"



sponges posted:

I still enjoy his films

eh, whatever. I will never watch a Polanski movie but that's my own personal decision because it's hard to reconcile watching it with what he did, but I understand if there are people who love his movies (because they're really good still) who don't want to give that up.

On the other hand, I think *continuing* to watch new movies made by him (or Allen, or whoever) is a different story and I'll happily yell at people who go to see Wonder Wheel. I mean gently caress, it wasn't even that good. (and that goes double for people who agree to be in them, although that tide seems to be coming around)

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

ASK ME WHY THE HYUNDAI KONA IS THE GREATEST CAR ON GOD'S EARTH, I HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ON THIS SUBJECT


Snowman_McK posted:

Like, not a single defence of Polanski actually holds any water. All of them are people working backwards, Scalia style. They can't quite reconcile that a brilliant director did something so awful, and so they perform some mental gymnastics until it's not a big deal.

I think the random, gruesome murder of his wife and unborn son also feeds into some of the sympathy toward Polanski specifically. There may have been a collective feeling that, yeah, that was really hosed up and traumatizing, so maybe we cut him some slack on the rape thing.

That's not the right thing to do, obviously, but it's at least somewhat understandable.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


sponges posted:

I still enjoy his films

The thing is though that separating the art from the artist has now become so thoroughly ingrained as a defensive talking point that it's actually contributing the paradigm of simply ignoring injustice. I know you're not driving at this, you enjoy Polanski's films, I enjoy Polanski's films. But the conflation of the art with the artist is basically a non-issue. Yes, some people make a personal decision to not patronize his films, but if there were an actual crisis of filmmakers' unethical or immoral behavior negatively effecting their work, it would mean that Polanski wouldn't work anymore. But structurally and politically, the opposite is true, Polanski has not actually been separated from his art, he continues to be conflated by his defenders and collaborators essentially with his art. It's denial at best and apologetics at worst.

You can still think that The Pianist is a beautiful film worthy of praise and preservation, and at the same time think Polanski should be thrown on a bonfire. To actually separate the art from the artist would be to treat the artist as the number one threat to their own art as the collective right of the people.

PT6A posted:

I think the random, gruesome murder of his wife and unborn son also feeds into some of the sympathy toward Polanski specifically. There may have been a collective feeling that, yeah, that was really hosed up and traumatizing, so maybe we cut him some slack on the rape thing.

That's not the right thing to do, obviously, but it's at least somewhat understandable.

I had a friend who once asked me if I thought Polanski's experiences during the Holocaust contributed to his pathology. My answer was, "Mate, there was rape before the Holocaust."

sponges
Sep 14, 2011



Just donít watch any Polanski film made after 1977

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




sponges posted:

Just donít watch any Polanski film made after 1977

The Ninth Gate is decent.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back






The Pianist is loving amazing.

21 Muns
Dec 10, 2016

by FactsAreUseless


At some point I'd like to see Polanski's films just so I can have some idea what's supposedly so amazing that it's worth letting a child rapist go free. I'd prefer he be dead before I watch it, though, so that I don't have to worry about providing him any form of support.

Gatts
Jan 2, 2001

Goodnight Moon


Nap Ghost

I don't understand the Polanski thing at all. Why in the world would someone show support or acceptance or apology or whatever for that is baffling. Bring the dude to justice.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


Gatts posted:

I don't understand the Polanski thing at all. Why in the world would someone show support or acceptance or apology or whatever for that is baffling. Bring the dude to justice.

The most legalistic excuse is that, while never brought to justice in the U.S., Polanski has since reconciled with and paid reparations to Samantha Geimer nee Gailey. As for the other allegations of sexual assault that have been brought against him, just regular old misogyny.

Ego-bot
Jul 8, 2007


sponges posted:

Just donít watch any Polanski film made after 1977

Carnage was a fun movie with some great performances.

Das Boo
Jun 9, 2011

There was a GHOST here. It's gone now.




I love The Pianist and think the world will be a better place when Polanski's dead. I don't see why anyone has to reconcile one with the other.
It's like saying Ted Bundy was cool to do what he did because he also worked at a suicide hotline and saved a 2 year-old from drowning. poo poo people can do a good thing and still be poo poo people.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back






Das Boo posted:

poo poo people can do a good thing and still be poo poo people.

My stance on a lot of people discussed in this thread, in a nutshell.

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




esperterra posted:

My stance on a lot of people discussed in this thread, in a nutshell.

And also, a good thing can be done or said by a poo poo person and still be a good thing.

Tart Kitty
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!



Gargamel Gibson posted:

Yeah, he raped some kids, but he's delightful in Rush Hour 3. Swings and roundabouts.

Holy Jesus, I had forgotten that Brett "Let's Try To Sue All Of My Accusers" Ratner put Roman "My Accusers Wanted It" Polanski in one of his films.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


PT6A posted:

I think the random, gruesome murder of his wife and unborn son also feeds into some of the sympathy toward Polanski specifically. There may have been a collective feeling that, yeah, that was really hosed up and traumatizing, so maybe we cut him some slack on the rape thing.

That's not the right thing to do, obviously, but it's at least somewhat understandable.

Oh, I see the mental path they've taken for every single excuse. You can see how they get to the point of arguing, for instance, that since the girl was sexually active already, why is he being singled out? Or how is it not the mother's fault? Or everybody was doing it or whatever. I can play out all the those arguments in my head. I'm like the Will Graham of terrible rape apologists.

It's still hosed up, and not a single one of those excuses actually holds up.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001





K. Waste posted:

The most legalistic excuse is that, while never brought to justice in the U.S., Polanski has since reconciled with and paid reparations* to Samantha Geimer nee Gailey. As for the other allegations of sexual assault that have been brought against him, just regular old misogyny.

*citation needed

Last I heard he hasn't paid poo poo.

R. Guyovich
Dec 25, 1991

by Nyc_Tattoo


God Hole
Mar 2, 2016


I can understand the conviction to refrain from taking part in or engaging with the art of horrible people, but I for one find it fascinating.

If you can't bring yourself to watch Louis CK's stand-up or television within the past 15 years, you're missing out on an incredible case study of a man openly attempting to reconcile his crippling shame and toxic masculinity for laughs in front of an audience of millions.

Woody Allen's films, Crimes and Misdemeanors and Match Point in particular, are intricate insights on this man's own self-reflection on how one processes totally getting away with committing horrible atrocities for the sake of personal gain.

Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012


predatory navel gazing is not that interesting

AceOfFlames
Oct 9, 2012


DC Murderverse posted:

eh, whatever. I will never watch a Polanski movie but that's my own personal decision because it's hard to reconcile watching it with what he did, but I understand if there are people who love his movies (because they're really good still) who don't want to give that up.

On the other hand, I think *continuing* to watch new movies made by him (or Allen, or whoever) is a different story and I'll happily yell at people who go to see Wonder Wheel. I mean gently caress, it wasn't even that good. (and that goes double for people who agree to be in them, although that tide seems to be coming around)

I got literally screamed at by my mom for NOT wanting to see Wonder Wheel with her, claiming that refusing to keep her company because of this lovely thing that Woody Allen did was "the mark of a lesser person", that I was selfish and ungrateful, "art is separate from the artist" and all that. She ended up watching it with my dad and she really liked it.

In her (very loose) defense she was in a terrible mood that entire week and I don't know if she is aware of the more recent allegations instead of just the "dating his adopted daughter" stuff and whenever she's angry like this I tend to try to end the conversation as soon as possible so I didn't fill her in.

That's my Wonder Wheel story.

AceOfFlames fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Feb 8, 2018

jet sanchEz
Oct 24, 2001

Lousy Manipulative Dog

One of my favourite movies of all time is Chinatown, it is so well done and just an amazing, amazing film. Sucks to be me.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




woody allen's films were never that great to begin with.

Vegetable
Oct 22, 2010



jet sanchEz posted:

One of my favourite movies of all time is Chinatown, it is so well done and just an amazing, amazing film. Sucks to be me.
that sure is the worst thing to come out of polanski being a child rapist

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser



Just watch Big Trouble in Little China instead.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




God Hole posted:

I can understand the conviction to refrain from taking part in or engaging with the art of horrible people, but I for one find it fascinating.

If you can't bring yourself to watch Louis CK's stand-up or television within the past 15 years, you're missing out on an incredible case study of a man openly attempting to reconcile his crippling shame and toxic masculinity for laughs in front of an audience of millions.

Woody Allen's films, Crimes and Misdemeanors and Match Point in particular, are intricate insights on this man's own self-reflection on how one processes totally getting away with committing horrible atrocities for the sake of personal gain.

While "separate the work from the artist" is a comforting thought and I totally understand why people say that, it's uneasier but perhaps more truthful to admit that we don't get to pick and choose what elements of a person inform the works they create, it all arrives in one discrete package. And it's more uncomfortable still to consider that the output of someone like Louis CK is unique and noteworthy BECAUSE of their personal failings as people, rather than in spite of it. Like, it would be clean and convenient to believe that Polanski's pedophilia never once influenced any aspect of his filmmaking, or that it only informed the aspects we didn't like, but it would also be extraordinarily naive to think that. I don't really have a good answer for this other than to say that art entangles the whole effort of the individual, both the noble and the hosed up, and you can't just isolate them whenever it's helpful to preserve your own sense of morality

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


exquisite tea posted:

While "separate the work from the artist" is a comforting thought and I totally understand why people say that, it's uneasier but perhaps more truthful to admit that we don't get to pick and choose what elements of a person inform the works they create, it all arrives in one discrete package. And it's more uncomfortable still to consider that the output of someone like Louis CK is unique and noteworthy BECAUSE of their personal failings as people, rather than in spite of it. Like, it would be clean and convenient to believe that Polanski's pedophilia never once influenced any aspect of his filmmaking, or that it only informed the aspects we didn't like, but it would also be extraordinarily naive to think that. I don't really have a good answer for this other than to say that art entangles the whole effort of the individual, both the noble and the hosed up, and you can't just isolate them whenever it's helpful to preserve your own sense of morality
This is a pretty circuitous way of saying that people who enjoy Polanski's movies are pedophiles.

In any case, aside from what you wrote above, there is always the fact that the artist which you're supposedly separating the work from might still be benefiting from you consuming their product - and even if they somehow don't, you might still be supporting the corporate culture which allowed them to keep working despite their crimes.

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chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



When it comes to a collaborative effort like a film, I'm also loathe to try and erase it from history or retroactively condemn it because it's not a sole creation by one person. Roman Polanski was one of (according to IMDB) 41 actors and 84 crew members who put the film together. As terrible as he is, I'm sure the rest of the 125 people who worked on the film didn't assist him in his raping and deserve credit and recognition for their own contributions.

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