Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


Blazing Ownager posted:

Frankly the fact the Aziz Ansari was the moment it really went completely sideways. A bad date and some lovely game is not rape but somehow #MeToo takes every single level single thing and throws them all in the one-and-only rape pile, black & white with no sense of scale.

This isn't what happened though, you dumb poo poo. The thread went over this about a dozen times. Even if you hadn't read the thread, if you actually read the account, you'd know that isn't what happened.

And even then you don't get to decide whether someone else felt like they were raped

Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Feb 10, 2018

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


If we don't have a 'mentally stable' figurehead, then soon the movement will go 'too far' in accusing ideology and not just individual perverts. We can't have that, the truth is somewhere in the middle, after all.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

I mean, the goal, independent of the virtue or lack thereof of any one individual, is to reduce/eliminate harassment and assault in the business by making things more transparent- i.e., act like a creep, get called out on it in public- and theoretically reducing the power imbalances that exist. The way #TimesUp is organizing itself does seem like it's aware this is a systemic thing and they're targeting systems as well as calling out individuals.

And let's hold some perspective here- Aziz Ansari has not had projects cancelled on him, QT's doing what he does, it's not "everyone who gets named instantly has their career come to an end." That's not happening.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


Maxwell Lord posted:

I mean, the goal, independent of the virtue or lack thereof of any one individual, is to reduce/eliminate harassment and assault in the business by making things more transparent- i.e., act like a creep, get called out on it in public- and theoretically reducing the power imbalances that exist. The way #TimesUp is organizing itself does seem like it's aware this is a systemic thing and they're targeting systems as well as calling out individuals.

And let's hold some perspective here- Aziz Ansari has not had projects cancelled on him, QT's doing what he does, it's not "everyone who gets named instantly has their career come to an end." That's not happening.

The idea that 'a false accusation can ruin a career' is an astonishingly resilient one, especially given it's demonstrably bullshit. Actual accusation, and sometimes convictions, don't seem to reliably ruin careers.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser




Right now there's a large contingent going after Nolan Bushnell based on the word of a woman who wasn't born until twenty years after Atari's hey day, because it had a work culture in the seventies that would never fly today and shouldn't have flown there, with hot tub parties, coke, etc.

Nolan Bushnell is being called a serial harasser.

The only problem: nobody who actually worked there has ever made any accusation against him and any woman who's spoken about her time there has said he was always wonderful and they were willing participants in the hot tub culture, or not punished at all if they didn't want to participate. He employed more women than almost anyone in tech, and not a single one has come out with anything negative.

And the women who have come out to say that "We had agency, we have nothing but positive memories of working there" are being completely ignored, because a self proclaimed activist who wasn't even born has made baseless accusations without talking to anyone first, and because she's an internet celebrity journalists have just latched on.

It's another godawful hijacking of the #metoo movement.

The slander on Bushnell is upsetting, but not as upsetting as all of these people infantilising the women who actually worked there and ignoring their experiences.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

Snowman_McK posted:


And even then you don't get to decide whether someone else felt like they were raped

Yeah but feeling like you were raped might not always accompany having been sexually assaulted. What should anyone do in that situation? What if you want to be supportive of the victim and their emotional trauma, what if you truly believe they felt scared and confused and threatened, but you also genuinely believe that what they endured isnít what they want you to believe it is?

Is there any room in the #TimesUp movement for this line of reasoning? Can someone be an ally and still raise questions, or is blanket acceptance at face value the only path forward for feminism?

Iím not trying to antagonize anyone, I just wonder if the issue will ever move into the extremely nuanced and grey territory most of these situations are going to end up in. We could lose more allies than we gain if the message becomes muddied. We will have a lot more Aziz Ansariís than Weinsteins and Polanskis.

Iíve read every word on SA and Twitter about Aziz, and I think he made a bunch of extremely gross moves and made this girl feel like poo poo, but acting like her issue is in the same league as Eliza Dushku or Ke$ha or Uma Thurmanís absolute horror stories just fractured the base, drove a bunch of old head feminists to call out babe.net and Grace, and the resultant backlash has been digital infighting and cannibalism.

In the games journalism thread weíve been talking for pages about how Brianna Wu had an award stripped from the former CEO of Atari because he ďpromoted a hostile work environmentĒ and a dozen women that worked at Atari in 70ís were like ďuh were were free-wheeliní hippies smoking weed in hot tubs and stuff but Nolan never, ever hurt anyone or made anyone uncomfortable and everything you are saying is completely baselessĒ and Wu and her followers response was ďyou have dated views of feminism and it was all actually extremely problematicĒ as though these women are all brainwashed victims of the Atari rape Illuminati.

Again, Nolan has never been accused of anything, Wu fabricated every claim against him, and now her team are defending her completely baseless accusations on the basis that all victims should be believed against the VERY WOMEN they were attempting to speak on behalf of.

I donít know where any of this is headed, but I agree with Dave Chappelle (most of his last Netflix special is about this), the monsters are very scared and when this dies down in a little while it will get worse before it gets better.

Edit: E:FB, Al Borland making GBS threads in my cornflakes all day

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


Bust Rodd posted:

Yeah but feeling like you were raped might not always accompany having been sexually assaulted.

I want you to think about this statement for a second.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser




I think he's talking about like, false memories or conflating a flashback with reality?

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


Al Borland Corp. posted:

I think he's talking about like, false memories or conflating a flashback with reality?

That's an exceptionally generous reading.

But look at our reactions here, you just brought up the CEO of a company that no longer exists losing an award as if that is a reason to stop or redirect this movement. As if his lost award is an injustice on a par with people being sexually assaulted. We still can't help worrying as much about the plaudits and future of men as the experiences and trauma of women. Now, before you say 'but these women don't feel sexually assaulted' you're upset at the future of the entire movement because of this incident, which is about the trauma (primarily) of women. At a point, you're not criticising poor representatives of the MeToo movement, you're just part of the chorus criticising the movement.

And I doubt you consciously weighed the two (the lost award vs genuine trauma) and thought they were on a par, but you did bring it up. What on earth did you think it would contribute to the conversation if not to make some kind of equivalence?

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


Bust Rodd posted:

but I agree with Dave Chappelle

If you ever find yourself agreeing with Dave Chappelle about anything regarding gender, you might want to think a little harder.

It's his massive blind spot, the way race is Amy Schumer's

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

We raised it because every single thread about this movement denies that any woman anywhere would lie about this kind of thing and completely discounts the impact this has and hereís a very current example with a prominent mouthpiece.

And the damage were highlighting is not the damage to Nolanís career, which is negligible, but the damage to the movement itself, because it highlights exactly why we all need clearer language and stronger definitions and a better venue for justice, because otherwise it just leads to internal quibbling instead of progress.

We all want less rape, I promise, and keep that in mind when you look down at someone for having a different take on this incredibly complicated and nuanced issue.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

A real hellraiser




Snowman_McK posted:

That's an exceptionally generous reading.

But look at our reactions here, you just brought up the CEO of a company that no longer exists losing an award as if that is a reason to stop or redirect this movement. As if his lost award is an injustice on a par with people being sexually assaulted. We still can't help worrying as much about the plaudits and future of men as the experiences and trauma of women. Now, before you say 'but these women don't feel sexually assaulted' you're upset at the future of the entire movement because of this incident, which is about the trauma (primarily) of women. At a point, you're not criticising poor representatives of the MeToo movement, you're just part of the chorus criticising the movement.

And I doubt you consciously weighed the two (the lost award vs genuine trauma) and thought they were on a par, but you did bring it up. What on earth did you think it would contribute to the conversation if not to make some kind of equivalence?

I'm talking about the ignoring of the actual women who worked there, true pioneers in tech who's experiences are being discarded and are being turned into anonymous victims of crimes rather than the giants of women in tech/gaming they are. I don't care about the lost award, awards are meaningless. A bunch saying there was no trauma, there being no one from the company claiming there was trauma, there being no evidence of any trauma, just sniping from someone who wasn't there, and dismissal of the women who actually were. They don't even know there women's names and they don't care

John Wick of Dogs fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Feb 10, 2018

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


Al Borland Corp. posted:

I'm talking about the ignoring of the actual women who worked there, true pioneers in tech who's experiences are being discarded. I don't care about the lost award, awards are meaningless. A bunch saying there was no trauma, there being no one from the company claiming there was trauma, there being no evidence of any trauma, just sniping from someone who wasn't there, and dismissal of the women who actually were.

Of course you are. That's why you named Atari's CEO and none of the women. That's why his name appears repeatedly, alongside what he is being slandered with, and why the women who are being ignored pop up in paragraph 4. Because you're just so upset that a bunch of pioneers are being ignored. When talking about former Atari CEO Nolan Bushnell

Bust Rodd posted:

And the damage were highlighting is not the damage to Nolan’s career, which is negligible, but the damage to the movement itself, because it highlights exactly why we all need clearer language and stronger definitions and a better venue for justice, because otherwise it just leads to internal quibbling instead of progress.

Except that you both started by talking about the damage to Nolan's career and good name. I really doubt you realise that you did. It's instinctual. It's an in built cultural response to accusations against a man: the damage it might do. For a much more extreme version, read any of the initial reporting of Brock Turner's case.

You also said this.

Bust Rodd posted:

Yeah but feeling like you were raped might not always accompany having been sexually assaulted.

Which diminishes my ability to assume the best about your intentions and take.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless


Snowman_McK posted:

And even then you don't get to decide whether someone else felt like they were raped

However, people do get to decide if they were raped. Feeling like you were raped is not rape and it's loving dangerous that people can't make that distinction. Preferably this would be a court, but today that court is twitter. Except this will NEVER see a real court trial because it is absolutely not rape in way, shape or form. It's awkward, lovely bad sex that both parties took part in.

And yeah, I've seen the thread going over it but there was no majority-consensus because it's ridiculous to be in the same pile with the rest of this. You can't act as if some judge slammed a gavel on it because frankly the whole thing was bullshit and didn't belong with the rest of this, at all.

Bust Rodd posted:

We raised it because every single thread about this movement denies that any woman anywhere would lie about this kind of thing and completely discounts the impact this has and hereís a very current example with a prominent mouthpiece.

And the damage were highlighting is not the damage to Nolanís career, which is negligible, but the damage to the movement itself, because it highlights exactly why we all need clearer language and stronger definitions and a better venue for justice, because otherwise it just leads to internal quibbling instead of progress.

We all want less rape, I promise, and keep that in mind when you look down at someone for having a different take on this incredibly complicated and nuanced issue.

It's a case of swinging too far the other way. We went from having a real problem with not taking rape claims seriously to loading shotguns the minute someone suggests they had bad sex. One extreme is not better than the other.

And people are loving crazy if they think that the culture of "one accusation = immediate obliteration of a person" won't get abused or that someone might not, holy poo poo, lie now. The fact we as a culture were awful about taking claims seriously kept these sorts of accusations on the back burner before, but now they're front page news and have immediate effect.

Seriously, all rape claims should be taken seriously but we have to stop going ape-poo poo off the deep end pretending that nobody can ever lie or mislead anyone about this ever when the culture has flipped to "say the word and we destroy your target." Can't we just get to a place where every claim is rigorously investigated and the pitchforks come out if charges are filed??

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Feb 10, 2018

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

But that's my whole point, it's not annihilation! Aziz Ansari still has a job! Quentin Tarantino's career continues!

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless


Bust Rodd posted:

Yeah but feeling like you were raped might not always accompany having been sexually assaulted. What should anyone do in that situation? What if you want to be supportive of the victim and their emotional trauma, what if you truly believe they felt scared and confused and threatened, but you also genuinely believe that what they endured isnít what they want you to believe it is?

Is there any room in the #TimesUp movement for this line of reasoning? Can someone be an ally and still raise questions, or is blanket acceptance at face value the only path forward for feminism?

Iím not trying to antagonize anyone, I just wonder if the issue will ever move into the extremely nuanced and grey territory most of these situations are going to end up in. We could lose more allies than we gain if the message becomes muddied. We will have a lot more Aziz Ansariís than Weinsteins and Polanskis.

Iíve read every word on SA and Twitter about Aziz, and I think he made a bunch of extremely gross moves and made this girl feel like poo poo, but acting like her issue is in the same league as Eliza Dushku or Ke$ha or Uma Thurmanís absolute horror stories just fractured the base, drove a bunch of old head feminists to call out babe.net and Grace, and the resultant backlash has been digital infighting and cannibalism.

Well said. Every part of it.

Bust Rodd posted:

In the games journalism thread weíve been talking for pages about how Brianna Wu had an award stripped from the former CEO of Atari because he ďpromoted a hostile work environmentĒ and a dozen women that worked at Atari in 70ís were like ďuh were were free-wheeliní hippies smoking weed in hot tubs and stuff but Nolan never, ever hurt anyone or made anyone uncomfortable and everything you are saying is completely baselessĒ and Wu and her followers response was ďyou have dated views of feminism and it was all actually extremely problematicĒ as though these women are all brainwashed victims of the Atari rape Illuminati.

Brianna Wu is a loving crazy person that people follow because crazy people apparently get followers these days. I don't know why anyone would ever take a single thing she does seriously. She's a cartoon parody.

ED: Jesus loving Christ, she's running for Congress? gently caress! Seriously the last thing I want having any say in running my life is a moral authoritarian who wants everything their way or gently caress you.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 02:05 on Feb 10, 2018

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless


Maxwell Lord posted:

But that's my whole point, it's not annihilation! Aziz Ansari still has a job! Quentin Tarantino's career continues!

Only because of the amount of people standing up and calling it out as bullshit. What's fracturing the base is the people calling it bullshit versus the people who think it's super serious and is on the same level as Weinsten.

But make no mistake if people hadn't called out the bullshit, this would have been much worse for him. Meanwhile, Tarantino was literally as I mentioned towing the Hollywood line at the time. He can't go down for it, because I could (and actually still might, because I loving hate Roman Polanski so much) put together a montage video of A-lister after A-lister saying the exact.. same.. bullshit. My point is if he fries for those statements like 100 people crying fake tears all over #MeToo would go down too so

sponges
Sep 14, 2011



Judakel posted:

Chinatown is so good.

As is Repulsion and Rosemarys Baby

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

Colonel, there's no exposed breasts in these dark souls

Ok hereís a little story from my life:

My brother was a gangbanger in Boston in the 90ís. When he was like 18-19 a woman on his block called 911 and reported that he had raped her a day ago. They knew him from his litany of arrests and scooped him up and basically after of few days of begging and pleading and screaming because there was a complete lack of evidence the detectives involved looked into it and discovered:

This woman was totally schizophrenic, diagnosed multiple times according to her medical history

She had stopped taking her medication a number of years ago

They actually had several 9-1-1 calls from this woman over 5 years claiming her father, husband and brother (dead for 3 years at the time of the call) had raped her.

My brother was free to go, but there are still counties in Boston that have rape charges on his file because their half-online//half-offline system is completely borked, and our family was responsible for all the legal fees.

So this thing that dramatically impacted my family for years is a real world example of someone believing they were sexually assaulted when in fact they were not. I honestly donít give a poo poo if you believe me, and I canít wait for someone to twist this around into me saying all victims are crazy or liars (Iím not), Iím just saying itís possible and it happens and treating me like a rape sympathizer because of my experience and the way it informs my view is unnecessarily antagonistic, even if you donít like it.

Judakel
Jul 29, 2004

MAGA FAN #1


Maxwell Lord posted:

I mean constantly shoving your fingers in someone's mouth because you saw it in a porn is a step beyond "lovely game".

The whole Aziz thing is extremely weird because I do think he was purposely vile (and not simply clueless), but I still don't think there is any news value to it.

K. Waste
Feb 27, 2014

MORAL:
To the vector belong the spoils.


Blazing Ownager posted:

Only because of the amount of people standing up and calling it out as bullshit. What's fracturing the base is the people calling it bullshit versus the people who think it's super serious and is on the same level as Weinsten.

Again, nothing has to be "on the same level as Weinstein." We are not hunting for Pennywise. The problem is not individual human-monsters, but the entire ideological framework from which patriarchal power is perpetuated.

What's happening in the #MeToo and #TimesUp movements is the exact same thing that happens with any significant progressive social movement. There is no fracturing of the base, the 'base' is a liberal ideological fantasy. In any progressive social movement there is inevitably a schism between individuals and groups whose agenda is specifically to undermine and dismantle systems of injustice; and liberal pragmatists who, while superficially campaigning for greater 'inclusivity' or 'sensitivity' or 'transparency' or whatever the buzzword is, are merely trying to 'reform' the status quo while fundamentally opposing any radical change in ideology.

esperterra
Mar 24, 2010

SHINee's back






I think it's silly to act as if false accusations don't exist, because they do. Are they an incredibly small percentage of rape and assault stories? Almost definitely.

But it's silly to pretend they don't exist at all, and imo silly to pretend that they may not become more visible now that victims actually feel safer coming forward and these topics are moving to the forefront of dicussion. It's lovely but it can and will happen.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

by FactsAreUseless


Bust Rodd posted:

Ok hereís a little story from my life:

I had a very dear friend that unfortunately found herself (ironically) going to some Hollywood parties where they were just throwing drugs in her direction, and I got to watch her very painfully and sadly implode as a person to the point I had to sever contact after she started doing things like robbing her parents. It was super depressing to watch someone fall like that.

I only bring it up because at the sort of 'beginning of the end' she got it into her head that she was held in a room for hours and raped by an ex. A little digging and I found said ex was literally across the country on the other seaboard at a party and actively taking photos. She only found it 'creepy' that they could somehow book a flight to CA, abduct her for hours, then book a flight back to NY in time for dinner. She was just sending tons of hate messages getting a 'WTF?' response of pure confusion, followed by an eventual restraining order. I could never convince her it didn't happen, and couldn't have happened. By all accounts I think the most likely scenario is she had a real bad drug experience on her own, in her own apartment, timeline wise.

I only bring it up because it's a pretty sad story with a woman who was absolutely sincere in her beliefs, but her beliefs were impossible (I bet her ex feels lucky they were on the other side of the country rather visibly to this day) as a case I've seen first hand where outright accusations were made that absolutely could not have been true.

Anyway, again a real sad story. She was a really, really nice person before getting an in with the crowd that runs in the Hollywood party circles and doing all of the drugs. At first I regretted not going to them just for the insanity going down, but in hindsight I really dodged a bullet falling into that well of sadness. I really hope she's okay these days but last I saw her she was not really herself at all.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Feb 10, 2018

precision
May 7, 2006

Gonna have me some good friends around
Gonna have me some good times in town




Blazing Ownager posted:

However, people do get to decide if they were raped. Feeling like you were raped is not rape and it's loving dangerous that people can't make that distinction. Preferably this would be a court, but today that court is twitter. Except this will NEVER see a real court trial because it is absolutely not rape in way, shape or form. It's awkward, lovely bad sex that both parties took part in.

Pretty sure nobody sane is saying Ansari raped that woman. Not sure why you're hung up on that point.

Hat Thoughts
Jul 27, 2012


precision posted:

Pretty sure nobody sane is saying Ansari raped that woman. Not sure why you're hung up on that point.

I get why ppl do it but it's so counter-productive getting worked up refuting an argument that exists somewhere. Like, why swat at ghosts? if someone here is saying something, sure, address it, but you're not constructing an opinion by continually adding to a list of things u disagree with

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

Blazing Ownager posted:

Only because of the amount of people standing up and calling it out as bullshit. What's fracturing the base is the people calling it bullshit versus the people who think it's super serious and is on the same level as Weinsten.

Then who are we even talking about? Who is the innocent man who's had their career destroyed?

The only two people I'm pretty much sure are done as a result of this are Weinstein and Spacey and even the latter, I mean he'll try sometime to come back I'm sure, not really seeing it working. The only reason I'm reasonably sure Weinstein is gone is because he's actually kind of open to legal jeopardy here.

Listing as many of the names as I can think, Louis C.K. is probably gone for a while, Takei is basically very close to retired anyway so it just means fewer cameos in nerd poo poo, Dan Harmon still has his show and Megan Ganz seems to be at peace with that for whatever it's worth, Stan Lee is retired, James Franco is kinda not facing much of anything yet, Garrison Keillor again was retired already, T.J. Miller is out of one movie but not another, I am not seeing scorched Earth here.

This is still a movement up against people who have power and connections and some people are going to dodge this more than others. Even then you're acting as though the MeToo movement is actively trying to end the career of everyone named, but a lot of these cases have in fact been "I'm not trying to destroy this person"- Uma Thurman went out of her way to make it clear she was not trying to bring Tarantino down because that was not her goal.

Like I'm not seeing #MeToo or #TimesUp as being about trying to bring low as many individuals as possible, but as trying to set things up so that this poo poo doesn't happen. Which will require those who have done some bad poo poo to face some consequences to discourage others from trying that poo poo. What actually constitutes effective deterrence has yet to be found out, but we're in uncharted territory here.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010


Blazing Ownager posted:

Feeling like you were raped is not rape

Umm...yeah...it is. Since it's a crime determined entirely by consent, it kind of is, you dumb poo poo.

"I did not consent"
"Well, I think you did"

Do you see the problem?

Blazing Ownager posted:

Only because of the amount of people standing up and calling it out as bullshit.

Show your working.

I think it's more to do with assholes like you deliberately misrepresenting what Ansari did, and the fact that it takes a hell of a lot for any accusation to actually do any damage.

Why do people still think, against all evidence 'a single accusation can ruin everything'? It's demonstrably not true.

You're also leaping from a woman who had an extremely bad drug trip (again, let's just say that's what happened and that your story isn't horseshit) to a defence of what Ansari did do, and your defence of him is largely to misrepresent what he did.

Bust Rodd posted:

Ok here’s a little story from my life:

My brother was a gangbanger in Boston in the 90’s. When he was like 18-19 a woman on his block called 911 and reported that he had raped her a day ago. They knew him from his litany of arrests and scooped him up and basically after of few days of begging and pleading and screaming because there was a complete lack of evidence the detectives involved looked into it and discovered:

This woman was totally schizophrenic, diagnosed multiple times according to her medical history

She had stopped taking her medication a number of years ago

They actually had several 9-1-1 calls from this woman over 5 years claiming her father, husband and brother (dead for 3 years at the time of the call) had raped her.

My brother was free to go, but there are still counties in Boston that have rape charges on his file because their half-online//half-offline system is completely borked, and our family was responsible for all the legal fees.

So this thing that dramatically impacted my family for years is a real world example of someone believing they were sexually assaulted when in fact they were not. I honestly don’t give a poo poo if you believe me, and I can’t wait for someone to twist this around into me saying all victims are crazy or liars (I’m not), I’m just saying it’s possible and it happens and treating me like a rape sympathizer because of my experience and the way it informs my view is unnecessarily antagonistic, even if you don’t like it.

I believe this story. What I don't believe is extrapolating from this any kind of larger cultural response, which is what we actually do. Read any discussion on rape, there will be a whole raft of people who say the real problem is false accusations. Given the conviction rates of sexual assault, that is in no way the real problem.

Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Feb 10, 2018

sleep with the vicious
Apr 2, 2010


Snowman_McK posted:

This isn't what happened though, you dumb poo poo. The thread went over this about a dozen times. Even if you hadn't read the thread, if you actually read the account, you'd know that isn't what happened.

And even then you don't get to decide whether someone else felt like they were raped

That is an insane statement. She was so upset she sucked him off twice, then we she said no he said ok and she left. That ain't rape bro

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"



Bust Rodd posted:

Ok hereís a little story from my life:

My brother was a gangbanger in Boston in the 90ís. When he was like 18-19 a woman on his block called 911 and reported that he had raped her a day ago. They knew him from his litany of arrests and scooped him up and basically after of few days of begging and pleading and screaming because there was a complete lack of evidence the detectives involved looked into it and discovered:

This woman was totally schizophrenic, diagnosed multiple times according to her medical history

She had stopped taking her medication a number of years ago

They actually had several 9-1-1 calls from this woman over 5 years claiming her father, husband and brother (dead for 3 years at the time of the call) had raped her.

My brother was free to go, but there are still counties in Boston that have rape charges on his file because their half-online//half-offline system is completely borked, and our family was responsible for all the legal fees.

So this thing that dramatically impacted my family for years is a real world example of someone believing they were sexually assaulted when in fact they were not. I honestly donít give a poo poo if you believe me, and I canít wait for someone to twist this around into me saying all victims are crazy or liars (Iím not), Iím just saying itís possible and it happens and treating me like a rape sympathizer because of my experience and the way it informs my view is unnecessarily antagonistic, even if you donít like it.

I believe this story and I understand where you're coming from, but to me the discussion about false rape accusations is remarkably similar to Donald Trump concern trolling about MS-13. MS-13 is a real problem that has hurt real people and the people in MS-13 who are committing crimes need to be punished to the full extent of the law, but a certain subset of people have glommed onto MS-13 and their crimes and is attempting to use them to paint a larger, generally innocent group of people (in this case hispanic immigrants) with a very violent, unfair brush. This hurts both the group of people who are being slandered as well as the people for whom MS-13 is a genuine problem, because it causes people who might otherwise be sympathetic to their plight to be suspicious because there are so many people who are using MS-13 as a reason to discriminate against hispanic people.

(I also think your story illustrates that the justice system's bueurocracy is broken and needs to be fixed).

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


Maxwell Lord posted:

But that's my whole point, it's not annihilation! Aziz Ansari still has a job! Quentin Tarantino's career continues!

Yeah, lol. Like what does it mean that Steve Wynn "stepped down" from his billion dollar company? The guy is like 80 and richer than God, unless someone kills him in the parking lot he hasn't suffered any consequences.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


K. Waste posted:

Again, nothing has to be "on the same level as Weinstein." We are not hunting for Pennywise. The problem is not individual human-monsters, but the entire ideological framework from which patriarchal power is perpetuated.

Which is even more of a problem when a lot of people can't even fathom that there is a system.

viral spiral
Sep 19, 2017

by R. Guyovich


I liked Tarantino's apology. Diane Kruger and Fergie both shut down the media's attempts to turn them on Tarantino as well.

I don't want Tarantino to get #MeToo'd. He's one of the last filmmakers out there who writes and directs his own films with an emphasis on characters and storytelling over big CGI scenes and spectacle. Django Unchained and The Hateful Eight are easily in my top 10 list of films, and I want him to keep making movies.

Kangra
May 7, 2012



It's just a tangent but since it was in this thread, hopefully people are aware that Nolan Bushnell was rather civil about the incident:

quote:

I applaud the GDC for ensuring that their institution reflects what is right, specifically with regards to how people should be treated in the workplace. And if that means an award is the price I have to pay personally so the whole industry may be more aware and sensitive to these issues, I applaud that, too. If my personal actions or the actions of anyone who ever worked with me offended or caused pain to anyone at our companies, then I apologize without reservation

Original:https://twitter.com/NolanBushnell/status/958770585433120768

As for the sort of actions he's talking about, which is more about promotion of a certain culture than specifically harming people, see this Playboy interview with him. (Search on 'hot tub' if you don't want to read the whole thing).

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




Blazing Ownager posted:

I don't know, I think at this point it's come screaming off the rails on fire. It's lost it's focus, half the stories now are ridiculously pathetic or mild compared to anything that has come before, etc. It's turned into a "say X is bad and X is ruined the end" bullshit, even if the reasoning is questionable. I cannot nor ever will be able to file "asked to bone, said no, left, no problems after" with "threatened, drug, bully or physical force."

Frankly the fact the Aziz Ansari was the moment it really went completely sideways. A bad date and some lovely game is not rape but somehow #MeToo takes every single level single thing and throws them all in the one-and-only rape pile, black & white with no sense of scale.

#MeToo started good but at this point is a raging dumpster fire the legitimate victims are trapped in with a ton of political bullshit now. Also looking it up it sounds like McGowan was mostly angry with #TimesUp, not #MeToo, which seems like a pretty blatant attempt to get a bunch of dudes off the hook for wearing a stupid pin and donating a few dollars to put out the fires.

women having to deal with bad sex, while not as bad as rape, is still a massive issue. look at any survey about positive or negative experiences with hooking up.

Bust Rodd posted:

So this thing that dramatically impacted my family for years is a real world example of someone believing they were sexually assaulted when in fact they were not. I honestly donít give a poo poo if you believe me, and I canít wait for someone to twist this around into me saying all victims are crazy or liars (Iím not), Iím just saying itís possible and it happens and treating me like a rape sympathizer because of my experience and the way it informs my view is unnecessarily antagonistic, even if you donít like it.

it happens but amounts to something like 2 percent of all accusations and it's more like .2 percent if you factor in all the rapes that aren't reported.

Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Feb 10, 2018

GrandpaPants
Feb 13, 2006


Free to roam the heavens in man's noble quest to investigate the weirdness of the universe!



So are Weinstein, Spacey, et al., going to get charged with anything, or are prosecutors building up their cases, or...?

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



Theyíre gonna run and hide forever so probably not.

DrVenkman
Dec 27, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.


GrandpaPants posted:

So are Weinstein, Spacey, et al., going to get charged with anything, or are prosecutors building up their cases, or...?

I believe there are two investigations ongoing with Weinstein and London police have said they started one on Spacey based on his time at The Old Vic, but I think that's generally it.

In other, I guess nicer news, Tarantino called Samantha Geimer personally to apologise for what he had said. In the end they just talked about movies:

http://www.indiewire.com/2018/02/roman-polanski-rape-victim-samantha-geimer-quentin-tarantino-me-too-1201927148/

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




Apologies are better than nothing IMHO but they have a shelf life of about 30 seconds before people start becoming weirdly reverent Apology Analysts critiquing just how thoughtful and Oscar-worthy the apology was until we forget the original transgression that provoked the need for one. Make the apology if you need to, then move out da gently caress out the way.

LesterGroans
Jun 9, 2009

It's funny...

You were so scary at night.


Everyone knows there's a difference between what Aziz did and what Weinstein did. It's weird and condescending to think they don't. Just because someone isn't constantly qualifying that a bad thing isn't as bad as a worse thing doesn't mean they're painting everyone with the same brush.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:

unless someone kills him in the parking lot he hasn't suffered any consequences.

If only.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

DrVenkman
Dec 27, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.


exquisite tea posted:

Apologies are better than nothing IMHO but they have a shelf life of about 30 seconds before people start becoming weirdly reverent Apology Analysts critiquing just how thoughtful and Oscar-worthy the apology was until we forget the original transgression that provoked the need for one. Make the apology if you need to, then move out da gently caress out the way.

I think apologising directly to the person is still a lot better than just issuing a press release to say how sorry you are. Throwing out a press release is the easiest thing in the world, actually facing up to it is different and to my mind at least, gives more credence to the apology being genuine. In Geimer's case, it clearly meant something to her and it's clear she harbours no ill will towards him or what he had said.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply