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A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


Magic Hate Ball posted:

Iconoclasty isnít anathema to moral turpitude, martyrdom, or just garden variety wrongheadedness. Gilliam absolutely believes himself to be tilting at an oppressive institution, that doesnít mean he isnít a clod.
Self-styled iconoclast then. I'm not gonna support his wrongheadedness by not including that qualification.

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Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




it's virtually impossible to separate a work from its creator unless you somehow are able to wipe your own memory. and if you can, sign me right up.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




I think it's definitely true that you can't separate the work from its creator, but I also don't think it's helpful to adopt some deterministic "oh well I guess that's just the way it's gotta be" outlook on Gilliam or any other filmmaker that shows their asses, at least not while they're still alive. You can be an agitator and an iconoclast without you know, thinking women should just give it up to Harvey Weinstein because they were cast in a movie. What Gilliam is saying isn't even ideological, it's just loving heinous and wrong.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


exquisite tea posted:

What Gilliam is saying isn't even ideological, it's just loving heinous and wrong.
Everything is ideology.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




not when a white man says or believes it you silly goose.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




What I mean is that Gilliam's statements are not in any way ideologically consistent with "tilting at oppressive institutions" or w/e, they're just wrong.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



esperterra posted:

I'd argue they're good for cutting down on the kind of bullshit bullying kids of lesser means get for not having nice/designer clothes tbf

That happens anyway, it just takes different forms. Countries with school uniforms aren't exactly famous for being exceptions in bullying data.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!


exquisite tea posted:

What I mean is that Gilliam's statements are not in any way ideologically consistent with "tilting at oppressive institutions" or w/e, they're just wrong.
Which is evidence that any supposed iconoclasm on his part isn't that solidly founded - probably being more of the "stop oppressing ME!" variety than an actual universal opposition to oppression. Though I suppose that is pretty much the ideological equivalent of being wrong, so this is probably more of a semantic exercise than real disagreement.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


exquisite tea posted:

What I mean is that Gilliam's statements are not in any way ideologically consistent with "tilting at oppressive institutions" or w/e, they're just wrong.

With his perception of tilting at oppressive windmills. Iím talking about what Gilliam thinks heís doing, and why itís dispiritingly not out of line with his attitudes over the years. Heís always viewed himself as an iconoclast and that applies here with negative results.

edit: and they are ideologically consistent - being iconoclastic was the bread and butter of the Python troupe and after that almost every movie he made was critical of the status quo (see his frequent attacks on organized religion, consumerism, and social conformity). He also spent his entire career trying to buck the system and biting back at producers (see the Brazil debacle), so it's not a huge surprise that he'd approach a hot-button topic like this and try to tear it down, because he's often positioned himself as the destroyer of what he perceives as the misguidedly accepted.

Magic Hate Ball fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Mar 17, 2018

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...


Some people are flawed. In fact, sometimes their flaws are a part of why they create interesting art!

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010



davidspackage posted:

What I'd like, is, I'd like to hug and kiss you.

Not enough gibberish or references to California, 5.5/10

-Blackadder-
Jan 2, 2007

Game....Blouses.


Meh, I guess I just don't care about the whole "artist is an rear end in a top hat" thing. It's just entertainment. If it entertains me, I'll keep watching it. If it doesn't, I won't.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




*sits you down and puts on jeepers creepers*

edogawa rando
Mar 20, 2007

Ya like Little Wayne?


Groovelord Neato posted:

*sits you down and puts on jeepers creepers*

How about Clownhouse from earlier in Salva's career?

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




that was what i was making reference to!

Ok Comboomer
Oct 20, 2007


It thickens....

Hollywood Reporter: Ellen Barkin Tweets "Never Get Into an Elevator Alone" With Terry Gilliam

Tart Kitty
Dec 17, 2016

Oh, well, that's all water under the bridge, as I always say. Water under the bridge!




Fuuuuck. C'mon dude.

Power of Pecota
Aug 3, 2007

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!




RIP The Man Who Killed Don Quixote

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


LoL, but separate the art from the artist you guys come onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

wyoming
Jun 7, 2010

Like a television
tuned to a dead channel.



"The Brothers Grimm director"
Harsh.

davidspackage
May 16, 2007



Nap Ghost

Gilliam says Matt Damon got 'beaten to death' when he criticized the #metoo movement not giving any focus to men who aren't creepy lovely rapists. The dude got put on twitter blast for a few days and that's it. It's like these dudes are so used to feeling like they're on the right side, any kind of criticism is like physical violence.

Also gently caress him

Kurtofan
Feb 16, 2011

hon hon hon


wyoming posted:

"The Brothers Grimm director"
Harsh.

unlawfulsoup
May 12, 2001

Welcome home boys!

Rhyno posted:

LoL, but separate the art from the artist you guys come onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

The whole point is people can still think the movie Brazil/12 Monkeys/whatever are excellent while clearly thinking Gilliam is a scuzzbag. I don't see how separating them is so impossible, it is almost like some people have this religious furor once something bad comes out about a creator. You can't exactly unwrite history and how you address it is always going to be complicated. Awful people can make interesting work and if it really sits unwell with you, well don't engage with it. It makes more sense financially to focus on avoiding future work anyway, if you want to actually punish said people.

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


unlawfulsoup posted:

if it really sits unwell with you, well don't engage with it.

That's...what they're doing.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




Just another idealistic visionary, tragically blinded by his own principles..

DrVenkman
Dec 27, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.


Like there's a really bad point buried within what Gilliam is saying. Damon said some things in a dumb way, but it's not like his career is over for it. He'll be fine.

And yes, I have no doubt there are stars who have slept with Weinstein or others quite willingly to cement their career. There always have been and there always will be. But, that does not somehow wash away anything that he did. Just because some people slept with him willingly, doesn't magically excuse the fact that there are women he raped.

But really, isn't this just another in a long line of 'older man has lovely opinions'?

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

ASK ME WHY THE HYUNDAI KONA IS THE GREATEST CAR ON GOD'S EARTH, I HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ON THIS SUBJECT


DrVenkman posted:

Like there's a really bad point buried within what Gilliam is saying. Damon said some things in a dumb way, but it's not like his career is over for it. He'll be fine.

Yeah, it's like Bill Maher defending Billy Bush. No, he doesn't have to "go away forever." Yes, he probably should show even the barest amount of self-reflection and perhaps attempt a meaningful apology if he wants to be in the public eye again. Like that's too loving much to ask, or something...

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


DrVenkman posted:

And yes, I have no doubt there are stars who have slept with Weinstein or others quite willingly to cement their career. There always have been and there always will be. But, that does not somehow wash away anything that he did. Just because some people slept with him willingly, doesn't magically excuse the fact that there are women he raped.
A person being taken advantage of sexually in order to further their career, keep their career, make ends meat, or just be treated as an equal isn't okay either even if they technically consented.

DrVenkman
Dec 27, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.


Timeless Appeal posted:

A person being taken advantage of sexually in order to further their career, keep their career, make ends meat, or just be treated as an equal isn't okay either even if they technically consented.

There's a difference between a person being taken advantage of and a person deciding to use their body to get what they want as well though. No doubt that Weinstein and people like him are horrible, but there are people out there who will think nothing of using what they have to cement their career.

Not that I'm defending Gilliam at all, but I think his point seems to be women who willingly did what they did and then when their careers didn't go the way they wanted they called rape, which is just about the dumbest take you can have.

DrVenkman fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Mar 18, 2018

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Magic Hate Ball posted:

Or the funny uncle whoís engagingly caustic when youíre a teenager, but by the time youíre an adult heís just scathingly bitter.

lol i definitely have one of these

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



if we're not counting Monty Python stuff Gilliam only has two good movies anyway

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


DrVenkman posted:

There's a difference between a person being taken advantage of and a person deciding to use their body to get what they want as well though. No doubt that Weinstein and people like him are horrible, but there are people out there who will think nothing of using what they have to cement their career.
I guess? My issue is that Weinstein basically set himself as a blowjob troll blocking off certain careers if you didn't pay him a toll. Like yes, the women who decided they were fine just loving him and getting what they wanted could theoretically just not advance their careers or quit Hollywood. But that's lovely and they shouldn't have to. I mean power to whoever feels like they had their interactions with Harvey, got what they wanted, and didn't feel violated. But using your dick as a gate to success is just as monstrous as rape.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Mar 18, 2018

Peaceful Anarchy
Sep 18, 2005
sXe
I am the math man.



DrVenkman posted:

There's a difference between a person being taken advantage of and a person deciding to use their body to get what they want as well though. No doubt that Weinstein and people like him are horrible, but there are people out there who will think nothing of using what they have to cement their career.
There are absolutely people who are not being taken advantage of and are instead using their sexuality to get ahead which would make those specific cases "consensual." However, just because both parties are consenting and mutually using each other doesn't make it right. It creates an atmosphere where that behaviour is expected which pressures those who are not willing participants to also participate or else they get shut out of work and provides cover for more explicitly abusive situations because of the idea that "that's just how it is." If the atmosphere is such that there's an advantage to using sex to get ahead then people will feel coerced to use sex to get ahead even without an explicit "have sex with me or you won't get the part" condition.

Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


Uncle Boogeyman posted:

if we're not counting Monty Python stuff Gilliam only has two good movies anyway

Time Bandits, Brazil, Munchausen, Fisher King, 12 Monkeys, and Fear/Loathing is a pretty wild hot streak.

Uncle Boogeyman
Jul 22, 2007



Magic Hate Ball posted:

Time Bandits, Brazil, Munchausen, Fisher King, 12 Monkeys, and Fear/Loathing is a pretty wild hot streak.

i've really only ever liked the first two. Fisher King is okay i guess.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Baron Munchausen is terrible.

Judakel
Jul 29, 2004

MAGA FAN #1


Ah, I see we've arrived at the "unpopular opinions I've always wanted to get off my chest" portion of his flogging.

-Blackadder-
Jan 2, 2007

Game....Blouses.


Timeless Appeal posted:

Weinstein basically set himself as a blowjob troll blocking off certain careers if you didn't pay him a toll.
Holy poo poo, this the absolute definition of and should be the only way Weinstein is referenced going forward. The image of him looking for a bridge near Hollywood Blvd to lurk under is gold. The guy has the perfect face for it too.

-Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Mar 18, 2018

Catfishenfuego
Oct 21, 2008

Moist With Indignation


Also like, even having consensual sex with people who you have professional power over with the understanding that you will give them professional advancement is somewhere between 'wildly unethical and unprofessional' and 'straight up illegal' depending on where you are.

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Magic Hate Ball
May 6, 2007

ha ha ha!
you've already paid for this


Are millennials killing the casting couch industry??

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