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Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.
So, I am horrible at documenting projects or making threads. I figured I should probably write up something about my latest project, as I am finding a lot of conflicting information online.

You may remember my last thread, in which I rebuilt a 12A rotary. Everything is still fine and well with that car, it has just become an occasional driver.

It's a 1985 Mazda Rx-7, 12A engine with dual weber 36DCD carbs. Has pretty much everything else done to it from suspension to engine.





Sadly, this thread isn't about any rotaries. Changing a waterpump on a rotary isn't exactly difficult anyway. I did help a friend make a 13b turbo AE86 rotorolla, but that is for another time.

A few years back, I picked up a new daily driver, a 2010 BMW 335i M-sport. It's got a 3.0L twin turbo inline six, coupled to a six speed manual transmission. BMW tossed their sport stuff all over it, so it certainly sets itself apart from a regular three series. It's also a hoot to drive, the thing is tuned for somewhere around 350-400 horsies and 425 torques.

I've spent most of my time fooling around with coding and software on this car. It's really neat that you can program each ecu to have different config and enable new features. I've added things like brake light strobing for stops over a certain G level, to mundane things like rolling the windows up remotely.

The BMW has an electric water pump. I am sure it will be a pain to change one day, but today is not that day.





and the standard BMW service shot:



Now where does that leave us. Oh yes. A 1990 Mazda 323 hatchback. This has a peppy 80hp 1.6L 4 cylinder SOHC, coupled to an automatic transmission made of glass. Absolute hoot to drive, just like a gokart.

(I don't even have a picture, I'll take one tomorrow)

Years back, this used to be my grandmother's car. It's served the family well and I just can't get rid of it. Unfortunately, this summer, I had some problems with the cooling system. My mother borrowed it, ran it without coolant and it overheated. I don't think it warped the head, I did a chemical test for exhaust gasses in the coolant, a leakdown/compression test etc and they all were okay. I tossed in some new coolant and ran it for a few more weeks.



Disaster struck. I parked the car and saw a huge puddle of coolant on the ground. Taking a closer look, and taking off the accessories, I could see coolant just pour out from between the waterpump and the block. Well poo poo. I guess the engine overheated enough to cook all the soft seals.

So yes, this is a thread about replacing the water pump in a 1990 Mazda 323.






Let's consult the Mazda Factory Service Manual for what to do:



Oh. Oh dear. This just got interesting. :getin:

Sgt Fox fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Nov 21, 2017

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Adiabatic
Nov 18, 2007

What have you assholes done now?
Hahahaha what the gently caress

Terrible Robot
Jul 2, 2010

FRIED CHICKEN
Slippery Tilde
Voted 5

Beverly Cleavage
Jun 22, 2004

I am a pretty pretty princess, watch me do my pretty princess dance....
Step one: remove B6.
Step two: insert BP

:f5:

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug
I just saw a KLZE-swapped BG 323 in the junkyard. I was in awe that someone would actually perform my life-goal swap.

Now I will be doubly blessed.

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.

Beverly Cleavage posted:

Step one: remove B6.
Step two: insert BPKLZE

:f5:
Fixed that for you.

Fender Anarchist
May 20, 2009

Fender Anarchist

Ground floor, this should be excellent. At one point AI was pushing me to do this swap on my MSP, I shall live vicariously through you.

Junk
Dec 20, 2003

Listen to reason, man. Why make your job difficult?
Friend of Sgt Fox reporting in. This is gonna get weird.

Maksimus54
Jan 5, 2011
Nice choice on water pump. Excellent job on recovering a service manual for it, glad to see the factory knew best

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.
The only way this could be more awesome would be if that was a real page from the service manual. My first car was a BA 323f and I always wanted to put a KL-ZE in it...but then Soarers happened, so thanks for (mostly) completing my first dream engine swap.

Are KL-ZE's easy to find now? In the UK you could pull them from Mazda MX6's for next to nothing...not sure what cars came with them in other parts of the world.

I'm assuming you're going manual with this swap?

Pomp and Circumcized fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Nov 21, 2017

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.
So, as you have all guessed, I am swapping a KLZE and a 5 speed standard into the car. Basically a friend was given a trashed 1993 Mazda MX-3 GS (which had the 1.8L K8 V6) which someone had tried to swap a KLDE into and failed. It was then left in a field for five years. Also in the field was a KLZE, which had been pulled from a running MX3 after it was rear ended.

This means that I should be able to use the ECU, engine harness and lower motor support from the MX3 to bolt the KLZE into the 323 chassis. I also need to use the MX3 power steering, axels and maybe spindles, along with some other small parts. Over the next few weeks, I'll try to catch up this thread on the progress, as I started this all a couple months ago.

Let's look at the different specs.

B6 - Stock 323 USA engine.
- Iron block
- 4 cylinder
- 1.6L displacement
- 16 valve SOHC
- 78mm bore, 83.6mm stroke
- 7.8:1 compression ratio
- 82 horsies, 90 torques

K8 - Stock MX-3 USA engine.
- Aluminum split block
- 6 cylinder - 60 degree V pattern
- 1.8L displacement
- 24 valve DOHC
- 75mm bore, 69.6mm stroke
- 9.2:1 compression ratio
- 130 horsies, 109 torques

KL-DE - Stock 626/Probe GT USA engine.
- Aluminum split block
- 6 cylinder - 60 degree V pattern
- 2.5L displacement
- 24 valve DOHC
- VRIS variable intake runners
- 84.5mm bore, 74.2mm stroke
- 9.2:1 compression ratio
- 164 horsies, 156 torques

KL-ZE - JDM engine.
- Aluminum split block
- 6 cylinder - 60 degree V pattern
- 2.5L displacement
- 24 valve DOHC
- VRIS variable intake runners
- No EGR from factory
- 84.5mm bore, 74.2mm stroke
- 10:1 compression ratio
- 200+ horsies, 165 torques

Basically, for the ZE, they added flat top pistons, different heads and cams, and a better flowing intake manifold. It's considered the best of all the K series engines and seems to be highly sought after for swaps. External dimensions of all the K series engines are the same, so they are not too bad to interchange. The main differences I have found so far is a third coolant sensor, a different distributor (external coil) and the EGR system.

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug
I've seen some good KLZE MX-3 swaps, but it still strikes me as vaguely insaner than the 323 swap, even though the cars are near as dammit identical.

Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Nov 21, 2017

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005

:discourse:

Factory knows best.

wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!
My boss had a KL-ZE mx3 at one point. It was pretty fast. I think he was using the regular MX-3 ECU.

Didn't see it mentioned but if you haven't noticed or mentioned it, you'll need the Subframe from a V6 MX3 as well.

A guy I know from a Mazda club (miss my old second gen protege) did one on an MX3 or 323 as well. I should shoot a text over his way, tell him to join up here. He's done the poo poo, so he'd have some valuable insight.

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.

Seat Safety Switch posted:

I've seen some good KLZE MX-3 swaps, but it still strikes me as vaguely insaner than the 323 swap, even though the cars are near as dammit identical.

It should be better, as the 323 looks better and is lighter. MX-3 GS: 1,171 kg (2,582 lb), 323 Hatch 910 kg (2,006 lb). The B6 versus KLZE engine weights are within 100-150lbs. I think I'll need to get a fake stuffed cat, a tissue box to put on the hatch tray and a world's best grandma license plate frame to complete the look.

wesleywillis posted:

Didn't see it mentioned but if you haven't noticed or mentioned it, you'll need the Subframe from a V6 MX3 as well.

I do have the subframe, but from what I have heard, I only need the part that bolts directly to the engine/trans mounts. I may also need the spindles, as there can be issues with the MX3 driveshafts being too long.


Actually, here is a list of what I have gathered/found online:

quote:

- KLZE Engine/Intake
- MX-3 5 speed (could also use V6 626, MX-6 or Probe GT)
- MX-3 V6 Axles (may be too long, and thus require MX-3 spindles)(1995 Kia Sephia 1.8L axles are the same spline counts, should be shorter (or the same) and have been told they will fit with 323 spindles)
- Any V6 ECU (more on this later)
- MX-3 engine wiring harness (626/MX-6/Probe harnesses are also supposed to work. Early 93 cars may have an extra coolant temp sensor. The harness I have for a 93 Probe has a mix of Mazda and Ford connectors and thus is gross)
- MX-3 brake booster vacuum line - routing is supposedly different.
- Any V6 power steering pump, lines and hoses. Different mounting position on the engine.
- MX-3 cross member (this is what I think is the metal brace that goes from the front chassis to the back of the front subframe. We will see if I need the entire subframe.)
- Passenger side V6 motor mount. All others are the same. (Incorrect, the two lower motor mounts are also different) Chassis points are also all the same.
- MX-3 shifter and linkage. V6 is different than the I4.
- V6 exhaust from engine to cats.
- V6 heater hoses
- Some sort of rad setup. We will come to that as well.
- Electric fan wiring stripped from the body harness of a V6. The 323 uses a different circuit. We will also discuss this.
- Some sort of adapter for the speedo cable. V6 is digital, 323 is cable.
- If you want rear disc brakes, you can use the rear subframe from a MX-3.
- With the straight neck KLZE intake, I hear the brake reservoir hits. We will have to figure that out too.
- If your intake manifold has square runners, the intake manifold gaskets from a 1995 Mazda Millennia 2.5L V6 are also square. All the other North American K series cars have round runners.

Sgt Fox fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Nov 23, 2018

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.
So where did we leave off? Oh right, Mazda told me I had to find a KLZE replacement. Luckily I knew where one was:



Can you see it? Wasting valuable hay.





So much rust. So much corrosion.

Let's take a look at the donor MX-3, who's V6 accessories we will need to scavenge:

Beautiful, one owner.


While it might be missing a light, it has two spare tires. Two donuts, what a deal!






Oh the smell. There was both mice and rats living inside the cabin. Even through a mask I wanted to hurl. Hanta Virus, a bonus! Somehow they left the precious engine wiring alone.



Time to strip the thing clean. Since I really didn't know what I was going to need for the swap, I just started removing everything.

Echotic
Oct 20, 2013
:stwoon: This is one of my dream builds after owning a manual MX-6 but being disappointed with the aftermarket. 5'd and good luck.

wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!
I'm starting to recall a few more things. Not really relevant to your swap however.

KF-ZE (or DE?) 2.0l V6 sold in Europe somewhere I believe?

As I recall, the K series engine wasn't particularly suited for forced induction, though it was supposed to be a good candidate for a high revving all motor type dealie with the appropriate work done.

Slung Blade
Jul 11, 2002

IN STEEL WE TRUST

That is quite the tool collection on your shop wall there.


Also this will be fun :v:

Fermented Tinal
Aug 25, 2005

by Pragmatica

Slung Blade posted:

That is quite the tool collection on your shop wall there.

If those saws aren't included in this project somehow I am going to be surpremely disappointed.

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal
Did you keep the MX-3 seats? If they weren't too infested I mean.

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.
Hahah, no. Between the rats, mice, wasps and mold, they were loving right dickered.

The entire interior went straight in the bin.

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

This is a strange way to replace a waterpump, but I'm diggin it so far!

Pomp and Circumcized
Dec 23, 2006

If there's one thing I love more than GruntKilla420, it's the Queen! Also bacon.

Yu-Gi-Ho! posted:

This is a strange way to replace a waterpump, but I'm diggin it so far!

The best thing is that technically the water pump is being replaced!

randomidiot
May 12, 2006

by Fluffdaddy

(and can't post for 11 years!)

Oh thank god, I thought he'd be swapping the B6 pump over to the KLZE before installing it. Phew!

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.
So we left off as I was starting to strip the crusty MX-3. I don't think I've ever had to deal with a car quite as nasty as this one. Living in a field for a few years had really taken a toll on the poor car. Inside and out was covered in mildew, algae, white mold and black mold. At least six wasp nests guarded the car, we must have gone through at least a couple cans of wasp-nuke. The inside was also filled with rat and mouse droppings. As the interior panels were removed, it became apparent that there had been a few nests inside.

The stink. My god, the stink in this car. Just absolutely disgusting. Rodent piss, mold, who knows what else festered inside. I could taste it, through a full respirator even. Absolutely unbearable. Even once the car was just a sheet metal shell the smell was just as strong.

Luckily, aside from the sound deadening, the animals didn't appear to have chewed through anything.

Car as it came on the truck:


Before anyone asks, my friend owns an Izuzu Elf flatbed tow truck. It honestly is the most fun thing. It is also an enabler for hoarding and addiction. Unlike most flatdecks, it is not a rollback. Instead the entire truck tilts, via two hydraulic rams behind the cab. Not too sure on what else, aside from it has a little four cylinder diesel and there is a japanese 24V relay which we are having trouble finding a good replacement for.



Okay, now that is out of the way, back to the MX-3.

As I said earlier, there seems to be an awful lot of conflicting information about this swap. The general engine compartment and firewall is supposedly the same between the MX-3 and the 323. The front and rear subframes are also supposedly interchangeable - though bolts may be a little off. Even the 626 subframes have been swapped around by others. In addition, the electrical systems are also compatible. While the engine runs on its own separate harness, it does connect up to either body harness. The MX-3 body harness has a slightly different electric cooling fan setup, as well as a digital speedometer. Some guys have swapped the entire MX-3 harness over into their 323.

Since I needed to get the car scrapped and I didn't know exactly what I would need, I did the logical thing and took everything that was bolted to the drat chassis.

Engine removed, and subframes held on with only a couple bolts:


Nasty, filthy, horrid interior stripped: (Imagine overwhelming piss smell)




Subframes loaded into the truck:



I even cut off the front end, as I may need to steal the radiator supports:



After it was stripped, it got loaded back onto the ramp truck to take to the scrap yard.



Soon to become a brand new KIA.

Guess how much steel I left on the car?

$23.50 CAD. Yeah, pretty stripped.

Left Ventricle
Feb 24, 2006

Right aorta
This is a lot like that old automotive "joke" I hear endlessly whenever I talk about my fleet of shitcans: What you need to do is, unscrew the radiator cap, and drive a new car underneath it! :rolleyes:

I like this though. More unassuming sleepers. That's what the world needs. Keep the ricers guessing.

beep-beep car is go
Apr 11, 2005

I can just eyeball this, right?



Is that Isuzu right hand drive?

Did someone import a 25 year old tiny Japanese commercial truck?

That.

Is.

AWESOME.

Left Ventricle
Feb 24, 2006

Right aorta

beep-beep car is go posted:

Is that Isuzu right hand drive?

Did someone import a 25 year old tiny Japanese commercial truck?

That.

Is.

AWESOME.

Not disputing that :iia: but I'm pretty sure we got the Elf badged as the NPR among others.

beep-beep car is go
Apr 11, 2005

I can just eyeball this, right?



Left Ventricle posted:

Not disputing that :iia: but I'm pretty sure we got the Elf badged as the NPR among others.

Look at the photo of it though. I think it's right hand drive.

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.
Yes, it is a Japanese RHD import. Keep in mind, this is the West coast of Canada. Not as uncommon as you would think. This particular truck was imported ten years ago by a guy who sold those minitrucks.

wesleywillis
Dec 30, 2016

SUCK A MALE CAMEL'S DICK WITH MIRACLE WHIP!!

Sgt Fox posted:

Yes, it is a Japanese RHD import. Keep in mind, this is the West coast of Canada. Not as uncommon as you would think. This particular truck was imported ten years ago by a guy who sold those minitrucks.

Are you the dude that rebuilt the Rotary and got the last set of rotor chambers in North America or something?

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.
Yes, I am. Surprised you remember that, I got the last 12A rotor housings Mazda had in North America. That engine is still going strong.

Suburban Dad
Jan 10, 2007


Well what's attached to a leash that it made itself?
The punchline is the way that you've been fuckin' yourself




This should be fun to watch. Thanks for posting it!

bolind
Jun 19, 2005



Pillbug
gently caress, I only just now got it. I blame having a seven week old keeping me up at night. This is gun be awsum!

bolind fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Dec 15, 2017

Fo3
Feb 14, 2004

RAAAAARGH!!!! GIFT CARDS ARE FUCKING RETARDED!!!!

(I need a hug)
Ha ha cool.
FF is the devil I say :v:
what's up fellow 12a enthusiast and dual carb rotary person? I ran dual 40IDFs in a 13B bridgeport and had a 12A turbo completely rebuilt with new housings a long time ago, *[Steve Buscemi - how do you do fellow kids?.gif]
I've never known anyone else to run dual carbs on any rotary or care about 12As

I'm currently into the BMW thing myself (looking for a m54b30 soon), also the aussie falcon barra; but I used to get all my past girlfriends to buy the 4cyl 323s for them to own and me to have fun in. But I never wanted to work on them. FF devil and just terrible vacuum lines and emissions solenoids and poo poo. No delete option like old rotaries, no simple system like on more advanced or modern cars - so I like them but don't want to work on one.

Fo3 fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Nov 29, 2017

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.
Since the car was now scrapped, I was left with a mountain of parts. It seems that once you remove the drat things, they occupy twice as much space as the car itself. I did what any normal person would do and spread them thoroughly around.


MX-3 Radiator, rad supports, shifter linkage and some splash guards.


MX-3 5-speed, adjustable steering column, intake manifold for a K8 (useless) and an entire cart full of interior pieces, gauges and whatnot.


Box full of RockAuto goodies, entire MX-3 body harness, laundry basket full of original KLZE parts, box full of K8 cams and some axles which won't fit, but would have cost more to ship back in boxes.


Dodge Neon radiator, Mercedes Benz front aux fans, VAF, pedal box, cruise control and fuel sender. Also, a duck.


MX-3 K8 engine harness. This one is an early 92/93, so it has the three coolant sensors wired, just like the KLZE has. This means that technically the ECU driven fan signals should work.

Now, you might be asking why is there a Dodge Neon radiator. Well, apparently they will fit quite nicely inside the front nose of a 323 to give me extra room for the V6. A few weeks back, I was able to tag along to the mainland for free, because my pops had business meetings. Normally it would cost ~$80 each way to take the ferry. I spent the day in rainy Chilliwack BC, at the Pick a Part. Its one of the last you-pull junkyards around, and does cheap, flat rate pricing on all parts.

I loaded up with two bags of tools, an electric impact, a drill and an electric sawsall. Stupidly useful to bring a saw to the yard, I was able to cut out a rust patch panel from one of the 323 wheel arches. I knew that I would be pressed for time and I would probably get excited and forget some stuff, so I made myself a double sided list with what I wanted, where it was in the yard and a picture of each car.



I got to the yard at 10am. First stop:

1994 Ford Probe. Came with a 2.5L KLDE engine. Basically the exact same engine as the KLZE, minus flat top pistons, heads, cams and intake. I grabbed the ECU, a KL48 (same as the KL55, just Feeerd.). I also took the KL02 VAF (same as the 626, MX6 etc), the engine wiring harness, distributor and the broken clips from my engine. I also snagged the fuel filter bracket, since the 2.5L uses a bigger filter than the 1.8L.

Next it was off the the *urgh* Dodge Neons *shudder*. Jesus, there was a lot of them to choose from.

I honestly can't remember which car I pulled the radiator from. It was between 1997-1999 2.0L SOHC. I took the only aftermarket replacement radiator in the yard, figuring it would be in the best shape. Interestingly, all the other Neons still had their factory radiator.

Now, I needed a fan to go with the new radiator. I wanted something that would push instead of pull, so I could mount it in front. That seemed to leave me primarily with supplemental AC booster fans. I nabbed a neat small fan out of some 1980's Toyota. I think it was a Corolla fan, judging by RockAuto. It is small and all metal, so it might be a good option. It is only a single speed though. Technically the manual transmission 323s and MX-3s had a single speed fan, while the automatics had a two speed. I am not sure if I will really need a two speed, given I am swapping a manual in.





I also nabbed the fans out of a Merc, a C200 something I think. Pretty serious fans, when I tested them with the M12 battery on the yard, the were pretty much hovering off the hood. Oddly enough, the two cars which had them both had the passenger side not work. I looked at the wiring and they were both two wires, in parallel. Seemed odd to me, I figured at first maybe one was low and one was high. Part numbers of each fan motor was the same as well. I swapped the bad fan out in the yard with a good one, so I ended up with a working dual setup. If I end up using these, I will wire up one fan for low and two for high.

After snagging a Volvo fan and relay setup for a friend, a F250 IDM and some other things, I finally had my way with the 323s in the yard. Look at these poor things:



Oddly enough, there were a few standard transmission 323s. I snagged the pedal box, since Mazda EPC shows that it had a different part number from the MX-3 one, a cable driven speedo gear assembly, the manual transmission interior trim and shift knob, and some other small bits. There was one with a brand new ignition switch, so I took that as well. I also used the sawsall to cut out a rear wheel arch, since mine has some rust. I'll either weld it in or use it as a template.

On the way out, I noticed this van in the yard:


I had a laugh at the old weathered "Future Parts Donor - Pick a Part" bumper sticker. I guess the sticker was correct.

All told, I spent six rainy hours in the yard and $300. Not a bad day.

Also, here is an awesome bumper sticker on a Landcruiser Prado we parted out the other week:

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug
I thought the Island had Pick N Pull. I know I've seen at least one car that was marked as having come from there when it transferred into our yards.

I make the occasional trip out there: we should talk.

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.
No, not that I know of. We have a couple yards on the south island, but none are you-pull anymore and are quite expensive. Mostly newer cars too.

Are you on the mainland then?

I keep watching the Pick-a-Part for one of the rear hatch spoilers which came factory on the 323. No luck yet.

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Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug

Sgt Fox posted:

No, not that I know of. We have a couple yards on the south island, but none are you-pull anymore and are quite expensive. Mostly newer cars too.

Are you on the mainland then?
Sort of, I'm in Alberta. I make trips out to the Island sort of infrequently, about once a year now.

Sgt Fox posted:

I keep watching the Pick-a-Part for one of the rear hatch spoilers which came factory on the 323. No luck yet.
Like a waist spoiler kind of deal? Might be a little large for checked baggage but I'll add it to the looking-for list. Can't say I've ever seen one in person.

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