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Hed
Mar 31, 2004

Fun Shoe

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

lmao i can imagine some dick professor giving them an f and raising a complaint against the student for sharing answers

I sat in a presentation to the class where a professor was shocked to learn that student orgs like greek life have test files going back years. I was as surprised that he had never considered changing up his tests.

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qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Lol at good grades taking the same amount of work as a full time job

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde

qhat posted:

Lol at good grades taking the same amount of work as a full time job
the difference is you get to choose the schedule

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Funny how touchy people get when you tell them you're looking for hard evidence of competence rather than just taking their professor's word for it.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
undergraduate life is a five year paid vacation for children of the affluent

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
it used to be that going to college was proof your parents were rich, so you passed the test just by graduating

now that universities grant scholarships and poo poo, competitive industries use unpaid internships to serve as the screening function instead. "we could afford to pay you, but we don't want to accidentally hire the offspring of dirty poors"

for all of the technology industry's manifold sins, at least we generally pay our loving interns

Kudaros
Jun 23, 2006
I've had to pass up many internships that would mesh well with my work and my desired career path(s) because they were unpaid. There was some really neat postings for the UN a few years ago but they were entirely unpaid and would require relocation to loving NYC. Most of my ideal jobs seem to be the purview of the rich.

heated game moment
Oct 30, 2003

Lipstick Apathy
i worked full time in college. it was garbage, and i hated school.

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

cool startup feel posted:

i worked full time in college. it was garbage, and i hated school.

Same. I had 5 part time jobs at any given time and I still came out with debt that follows me to this day. It was hell.

Arcteryx Anarchist
Sep 15, 2007

Fun Shoe

qhat posted:

Lol at good grades taking the same amount of work as a full time job

i think this is really sensitive to universities and and what peoples goals are in school; I know its a common meme that elite schools are just for wealthy kids to have proper signaling and keep the poor away, but plenty of them have programs are much more challenging than you might encounter at another institution because they're feeding hyper competitive
research areas and/or prestige concerns, and they likewise are filled with hyper competitive students that will put graduate-level effort into things

like there was a kid from the podunk town my cousins live in that was a high achiever in high school and ended up going to Columbia; got there and discovered the place was full of students just as if not way more competitive than he was, had attended way better schools than his little rural high school; between just how competitive the environment was and how different he was from other students, he just couldn't cope and ended up dropping out and committing suicide

I sometimes think that I should have attended a top tier institution; I probably could have gotten in somewhere and given that I lived in a rural poverty shithole even worse than my cousins town really and my parents weren't exactly rolling in money, I probably could have received very good financial aid to a private school at least

I also think its a good idea sometimes that I didn't; I still notice a lot of the effects of the mediocre to poor secondary education I managed to pull out of my piss poor rural high school, between that and unmanaged mental health issues I freaked out enough just attending the average, not even really ranked state university I did attend, so attending some more elite institution might have just resulted in me turning out just like that kid did

I mean I freaked out pretty bad a few times when I was making some graduate studies attempts at Stanford, so I don't know how well undergraduate would have gone for me in a place like that

heated game moment
Oct 30, 2003

Lipstick Apathy
in my experience its more that you can study for 15 hours a week and get B's or study for 40 hours a week and get A's. There are diminishing returns after a point when it comes to the time investment required. This has an impact when it comes to students who have other obligations than studying full time. I'm not saying its better or worse from a standpoint of who will have a better career but there is a tradeoff to be made and the financial status of the student and family definitely impacts how those decisions are made.

This isn't to discount motivation and work ethic...I knew kids that had $500 per week spending allowances (on top of all their expenses paid) who were awful students, and people who worked full time or close to it and excelled. But if you were to ask me today whether I'd have quit my job and taken out $20,000 in loans to go from a 3.15 to a 3.65 or whatever I'd say no loving way

Kudaros
Jun 23, 2006
I probably should have gone to a better school but ultimately chose to better my economic position in concert with my family and stay with my partner, eventually getting married. Honestly, now having seen and worked in all these various environments ("elite" and otherwise), I'm convinced I made the right choice. My program is competitive with these others on a technical level, if not on a prestige level, and I've built strong social and support networks. I simply wouldn't have had the material access to support the same level of competitiveness. I may still be able to weasel my way into the life I've wanted, but as I grow older I'm better able to recognize the fact that my class background was the fundamental deficit in that sense.

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015
Reading this thread from a socialist hellhole with free education feels real nice right now. :v:

Workaday Wizard
Oct 23, 2009

by Pragmatica

Xarn posted:

Reading this thread from a socialist hellhole with free education feels real nice right now. :v:

:same:

in turn ship? what’s that 🧐

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER


Xarn posted:

Reading this thread from a socialist hellhole with free education feels real nice right now. :v:

:yossame:

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015

Hed posted:

I sat in a presentation to the class where a professor was shocked to learn that student orgs like greek life have test files going back years. I was as surprised that he had never considered changing up his tests.

Our program had a wiki. It was common knowledge to anyone who cared, but we never had problems with it, apart from an idiot or two who got hit with plagiarism after copy-pasting explained homework for one course.

One of our teachers even curated the page for his course, adding more example question and removing wrong answers. When I asked him, he responded that if this is what it takes to get students to learn, he is game. :shrug:

I HAVE GOUT
Nov 23, 2017

Emacs Headroom posted:

I, personally, have never read a cover letter. It takes me about 45 seconds to scan a resume, and the top things I'm looking for are experience (or projects), relevant pubs, and familiarity with frameworks / languages / tools the job uses

but I'm the type of interviewer that thinks whiteboarding some dynamic programming puzzles is a total waste of time.

How does an interview with you typically go? What questions do you ask? Do u spend most of the time going indepth on the points in their resume? What would indicate to you that the interviewee is someone to hire?

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?

cis autodrag posted:

Sorry not everyone came into their college situation with financial security like you apparently did.

I love these little tidbits of what you think my life is like

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

The Management posted:

I love these little tidbits of what you think my life is like

You talk like someone who has never struggled, why are you surprised people read you that way? If you don't think of yourself that way, you might want to reflect on the sort of person your posts portray.

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde

The Management posted:

lol at being afraid of professors.
tbh autodrag i don't see how this poast or the ones leading to it support the reading that you are assuming

I am inclined to screen candidates for a relevant college degree, and find that autodidacts can be as arrogant as anyone, but programming is not legally constituted in the US as a profession and the quality of education varies muchly. There are schools that hand CS degrees to kids who can scarcely join two strings together.

as for professors you better believe there are some who will lay down the law if they believe the future of their field depends on it

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


cis autodrag posted:

You talk like someone who has never struggled, why are you surprised people read you that way? If you don't think of yourself that way, you might want to reflect on the sort of person your posts portray.

Or maybe you just have a habit of projecting your own insecurities onto other people. "My struggle > you're struggle" is borderline adhom because even if we can agree, for the sake of argument, that your life has been much more difficult than his, it doesn't actually refute anything he's saying. That is how I read your posts, as an entitled whinger.

qhat fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Jan 29, 2018

Symbolic Butt
Mar 22, 2009

(_!_)
Buglord
I can't believe you guys are still bickering itt

Workaday Wizard
Oct 23, 2009

by Pragmatica
:justpost:

Emacs Headroom
Aug 2, 2003

I HAVE GOUT posted:

How does an interview with you typically go? What questions do you ask? Do u spend most of the time going indepth on the points in their resume? What would indicate to you that the interviewee is someone to hire?

I like to set up a process that for junior people goes:
1) resume screen
2) take-home
3) phone screen
4) on-site

If I'm doing a phone screen, I'll typically try to talk about their take-home and ask them a few follow-up questions to make sure they actually did it and can think of potential improvements. I do ML and data science, so I'll ask about some of their previous projects (gauging how involved they were, how much they led vs were given a problem) and go into a few level-setting technical questions on basics of stats, regression problems, current ML methods, etc. If they haven't done much engineering, I'll also have them do a live coding exercise (typically something like streaming mean + reservoir sampling, or turning interaction timestamps into sessions).

For the on-site, one interview set-up I really think is useful is to have the candidate architect an entire ML system -- something like "let's send a targeted up-sell promotion to some users when they log in". Then have them pick a method (e.g. logistic regression), and we walk through making the necessary back-end systems, picking features, handling cold start, handling batch training / model serialization. It's really revealing if a candidate understands computers, they start thinking about what logging needs to exist and how they'll extract it; meanwhile others just talk about the algorithm and don't think at all about how actual computer systems can implement it in a way that it touches the product.

Arcteryx Anarchist
Sep 15, 2007

Fun Shoe
lol I think I would send an invoice for that interview

Kudaros
Jun 23, 2006

Emacs Headroom posted:

I like to set up a process that for junior people goes:
1) resume screen
2) take-home
3) phone screen
4) on-site

If I'm doing a phone screen, I'll typically try to talk about their take-home and ask them a few follow-up questions to make sure they actually did it and can think of potential improvements. I do ML and data science, so I'll ask about some of their previous projects (gauging how involved they were, how much they led vs were given a problem) and go into a few level-setting technical questions on basics of stats, regression problems, current ML methods, etc. If they haven't done much engineering, I'll also have them do a live coding exercise (typically something like streaming mean + reservoir sampling, or turning interaction timestamps into sessions).

For the on-site, one interview set-up I really think is useful is to have the candidate architect an entire ML system -- something like "let's send a targeted up-sell promotion to some users when they log in". Then have them pick a method (e.g. logistic regression), and we walk through making the necessary back-end systems, picking features, handling cold start, handling batch training / model serialization. It's really revealing if a candidate understands computers, they start thinking about what logging needs to exist and how they'll extract it; meanwhile others just talk about the algorithm and don't think at all about how actual computer systems can implement it in a way that it touches the product.

I'm getting a PhD involving this stuff (though not necessarily explicitly concerned with it) and I don't know what any of this means. Not a criticism, I just honestly don't know what to make of this. I suspect there is a lot of commonality in my background, but these particular terms are super discouraging. Before writing this I googled reservoir sampling and recognize it (without any particular name) from my undergraduate studies, but man, if you interviewed me yesterday I would have no clue what you are talking about.

Emacs Headroom
Aug 2, 2003
I wouldn't say "write out the algorithm for reservoir sampling".

I'd say "let's say we have a stream of numbers showing up, they're floats and we don't know how big or small they are. I want you to write a function (or class if you want) that takes a single number, and returns the mean of all the numbers it has seen so far"

you'd write out a "naive" version (maybe after I tell you that closures or global variables in python are fine to use) that could have overflow issues, and then I'd guide to to refactor it so that it didn't anymore

Next I'd say "now let's do a similar problem. this time we have a really long list of numbers, we don't know how many, and we want to pull a single number at random from the list. can you do it without having to read the list twice to get the length?" and it should be somewhat clear what to do after the streaming mean problem.

In general though, if you want to do data science or ML, you should know enough engineering so that you can write working code and collaborate with engineers (e.g. "what's a microservice?" "what is deployment?" "what are code reviews?"). And you should be familiar with concepts like overfitting / cross validation, regularization, curse of dimensionality, frequentist hypothesis testing (maybe), bayes theorem and maybe bayesian inference, some unsupervised clustering methods, and some dimensionality reduction methods. I'd consider that the basic stuff, and things on top of that (statistical learning theory, bayesian hypothesis testing or multiple comparisons correction methods, fancy new methods like GANs or VAEs) to be nice but extra gravy. Some people are super deep in one particular area (like they only studied conv nets or something) and too shallow anywhere else to be useful.

Arcteryx Anarchist
Sep 15, 2007

Fun Shoe

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


qhat posted:

Or maybe you just have a habit of projecting your own insecurities onto other people. "My struggle > you're struggle" is borderline adhom because even if we can agree, for the sake of argument, that your life has been much more difficult than his, it doesn't actually refute anything he's saying. That is how I read your posts, as an entitled whinger.

I think let's acknowledge the point that the university experience even in commie socialist free higher education countries still is hugely different for upper class white techbros and poorer (esp. minority) people. Getting along with professors and their quirks loving matters if you are after useful experience in some certain field. In much the same way as "culture fit" gets you a cushy coding job at the local startup straight out of school.

So with that in mind I think it is important for both interviewers and applicants to know that someone's GPA or grades can be interpreted both ways depending on how they spent their university years. I would much rather hire someone with lovely grades and a ton of experience putting themselves through school on part time jobs than someone with minimal job experience but a nice shiny rap sheet.

ultravoices
May 10, 2004

You are about to embark on a great journey. Are you ready, my friend?
i like how these threads turned from support group for job seekers to cranky bastards making GBS threads on anyone daring to seek employment in the noble profession of computer touching.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

ultravoices posted:

i like how these threads turned from support group for job seekers to cranky bastards making GBS threads on anyone daring to seek employment in the noble profession of computer touching.

i blame qhat's toxic garbage posting, mostly

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?

Emacs Headroom
Aug 2, 2003

ultravoices posted:

i like how these threads turned from support group for job seekers to cranky bastards making GBS threads on anyone daring to seek employment in the noble profession of computer touching.

dunno if you're lumping me into the shitters, but at least from my pov I'm trying to give some perspective on what tech employers in places I've worked at care about so that people who want to work in tech have an idea of what to focus on

to someone who's busting their rear end getting perfect grades and doing nothing else at CMU or Stanford, it might sound disheartening to hear that those efforts don't matter so much and can still get your resume tossed in the trash (though investment banking woudl be delighted to take you). but to someone who did say arts for undergrad and is try to retrain themselves, or for someone who didn't have opportunities to attend a highly-ranked school, it's probably helpful for them to know that all they have to do is demonstrate they can do the work and they get hired

Bored Online
May 25, 2009

We don't need Rome telling us what to do.

cool startup feel posted:

i worked full time in college. it was garbage, and i hated school.

im working my way through college and yeah this

Bored Online
May 25, 2009

We don't need Rome telling us what to do.
id murder any number of endangered species to have time to do github portfolio projects

DELETE CASCADE
Oct 25, 2017

i haven't washed my penis since i jerked it to a phtotograph of george w. bush in 2003
maybe use your posting time

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

DELETE CASCADE posted:

maybe use your posting time

Lol, this whole forum posts from work. It's the only forum that slows down after 5pm (according to my totally unscientific gut feeling.)

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


i post from home, work, and everywhere in between with the power of mobile computing

HoboMan
Nov 4, 2010

i def mostly post at work

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champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER


HoboMan posted:

i def mostly post at work

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