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Rex-Goliath posted:this is fine but requires you to know what your actual market value is / have some idea of what the company is looking for. if this question was asked early in the process before the candidate had a clear picture of all the responsibilities of the job then it was absolutely correct for them to stand fast. if it was later in the process then they probably just didn't have a very good idea of what the market looked like and also were correct to stand fast. also they could have just been a stubborn rear end. yeah it's the second option, we didn't spring it on these guys before they were ready. in fact we generally asked after the phone screen, on-site, and technical interviews and we asked via recruiter. these were senior devs too so idk why they wouldn't know the market at least a bit? everyone else seemed to know what they were worth. one guy had his salary expectations in the resume that sent to us and we gave him a heads up so he could yell at his recruiter and take it out for future interviews with other companies lol i personally have never had an employer budge on the "you gotta give us a number" questions when i was being interviewed so i'm unsure who this actually works for, guess i'm not leet enough or something
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Dec 31, 2018 16:14
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to clarify we didn't always ask via recruiter. if we found some random dev on our own, we'd ask them directly, but again after the bulk of the interviews. nobody ever said "let me get back to you" which may have even been acceptable to my boss, idk i think he just uses it as a filter because if someone comes at us with our max budget + 25% we just tell them outright and thank them for their time
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Dec 31, 2018 16:21
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that's fair then. in my own experience i've always hard-refused anyone who's tried to bring salary negotiation into the picture too early and so far it's always turned out to have been the right decision in hindsight. once they're ready to make an offer and the number is the only unresolved issue i've been fine with going first. i think the article you quoted is mostly for beginners who don't know any better
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Dec 31, 2018 16:40
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Cold on a Cob posted:idk if i mentioned it in this thread but earlier this year we passed on someone because he wouldn't give us salary expectations. like, outright refused. i guess he read everyone's favourite salary negotiation article. you and your boss are idiots
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Dec 31, 2018 16:50
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probably the best advice i ever received was always ask for more than you think you're worth, always state salary expectations NOT your current salary if at all possible, and if they don't counter you didn't ask for enough the last point is only useful for future reference if you're gonna job hop though also i eventually learned to ask my friends/former colleagues what they make, i used to be reluctant to do that and i'm sure i left a lot of cash on the table doing that over the years also re-reading the article and maybe i should give it a bit more credit and give it a proper read: quote:This means that any discussion of compensation prior to hearing Yes-If is premature. If you’re still at the job interview and you’re talking price you are doing something wrong. (Read the room: it is entirely possible that you came for a job interview, finished it, and proceeded directly to a salary negotiation. That’s probably suboptimal, but it is OK. Just don’t give the employer the option of having the schedule be job interview, salary negotiation, and back to job interview if they discover that you have a spine.) i have absolutely been pressed to give a number during the interview process so maybe i just lack a spine lol i can say that the number applicants give does have swing with us i.e. we might consider a soft-pass candidate that we think may need some work if they have lower salary expectations, so not all candidates get to be "yes-if" candidates; some are "maybe-if" i guess Pollyanna posted:you and your boss are idiots gently caress you, i'm not in charge and i said that multiple times
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Dec 31, 2018 16:53
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i mean if you're gonna call me out for being an idiot at least call me out for poo poo i have any control over
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Dec 31, 2018 16:55
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Cold on a Cob posted:i mean if you're gonna call me out for being an idiot at least call me out for poo poo i have any control over fine: your boss is an idiot, and you're merely a stooge for defending his dumb rear end
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Dec 31, 2018 17:04
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Cold on a Cob posted:i have absolutely been pressed to give a number during the interview process so maybe i just lack a spine lol learn to be comfortable with silence if hr or recruiting is pressing you for a number, their most potent tool is to ask a question and just let dead air hang out there. they can't yell at you or slap you, you know? they're just hoping that discomfort will drive you to answer a question you have repeatedly deflected that's a game two can play sit still, be calm, and don't blurt out dumb poo poo.
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Dec 31, 2018 17:06
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the dangerous thing is to give a number too early when the interview is done and gone and it's just down to salary negotiations, it's perfectly fine for you to be the one giving the first number. that's ok. it shouldn't damage your negotiating ability unless you totally gently caress up your estimate of your own value the danger is to say too high a number early in the process and get redlined by some moron in hr because it doesn't match the pay bracket they had in mind for job req #3644, salary grade 29 postpone, postpone, postpone
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Dec 31, 2018 17:07
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Cold on a Cob posted:i mean if you're gonna call me out for being an idiot at least call me out for poo poo i have any control over you brought the anecdote up here without any qualifiers and then defended it with there were six other candidates who did lol, so you own it throw a ‘this is was a bad idea’ in front and you’d have skated tbh its not bad advice to read the room dont deviant urself with a big swinging dick never name your price if you don’t have options (limited market, etc)
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Dec 31, 2018 17:09
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:fine: your boss is an idiot, and you're merely a stooge for defending his dumb rear end i wasn't even defending, just relating what i have seen and what i have been told  PCjr sidecar posted:you brought the anecdote up here without any qualifiers and then defended it with there were six other candidates who did lol, so you own it fair enough, but it'd be nice to have people actually read my responses before calling me a suck-up or idiot when i'm seriously wondering if this advice is actually applicable or not and posting about at least one case where i saw it torpedo a negotiation before it even started literally everyone else we asked gave us a number, and not just that day e: eh whatever, nice meltdown, etc etc. maybe i'm just too sensitive for sa or expecting too much from it. i'll see myself out. Cold on a Cob fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Dec 31, 2018 |
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Dec 31, 2018 17:16
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y'all disqualified a candidate for not being stupid enough lol
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Dec 31, 2018 17:52
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I'll admit to not negotiating my salary, but in my defense what they offered was 30k more than I was prepared to work for. Also i really really really wanted to get out of my parent's house so.
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Dec 31, 2018 19:08
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just adding another datapoint, I'm pretty sure I hosed up a super long interviewing process this year because I asked too much money at the end of the process and that really pissed off the russian HR ladies it wasn't really my intention to ask too much, I didn't have any reference so I tried coming up with something. next time in a similar situation, even if they ask, I guess I'll just wait for an offer
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Dec 31, 2018 20:55
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lovely, they didn't even counter? that must be a hell of a spread if they just gave up. or maybe their expectations on salary are just extremely hosed up. did they at least tell you? i went too high once and i was at least told this. then i walked because no way i'm taking a 40k haircut when someone else was offering ... a 10k haircut  but i'd been laid off and just bought a new house in a small canadian city so i took what i could at the time instead of holding out now that i'm home and a bit calmer i can see how my first post on this topic was misconstrued. in the post when i wrote "we" i meant it in the colloquial "this organization that employs me" sense of the word, even though i know better than doing that (both in this forum and in general). i hope this is a satisfying end to my meltdown for y'all
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Dec 31, 2018 21:35
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Cold on a Cob posted:or maybe their expectations on salary are just extremely hosed up. if I'm correct it was probably more around this, I'm brazilian so I guess they just expected they could hire me for super cheap Cold on a Cob posted:did they at least tell you? lol of course not, but right after I emailed them my salary expectation the person who referred me to the company emailed me all panicky "what the gently caress, what did you say to them? did you offend them?" lmao he tried his best to salvage the process but my number really put a stake on the whole thing Symbolic Butt fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jan 1, 2019 |
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Dec 31, 2018 21:49
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i'm still loling at the idea of all these HR/management people offended by your salary demands "don't take it personally if we lay you off or whatever, it's just business. unless it's your salary, in which case show some decorum and restraint!!"
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Dec 31, 2018 21:59
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whenever a recruiter asks me for a number I just say 225
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Dec 31, 2018 22:34
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i say 420.69 (per hour obvs)
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Dec 31, 2018 22:45
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just show them your alpha nerd chops by saying 42 over and over and then follow up with some monty python quotes
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Dec 31, 2018 23:27
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Cold on a Cob posted:i'm still loling at the idea of all these HR/management people offended by your salary demands 
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Dec 31, 2018 23:33
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Cold on a Cob posted:i wasn't even defending, just relating what i have seen and what i have been told
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Jan 1, 2019 00:02
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Symbolic Butt posted:just adding another datapoint, I'm pretty sure I hosed up a super long interviewing process this year because I asked too much money at the end of the process and that really pissed off the russian HR ladies yeah, well, that happens. there's no way around it really. it's human nature. you don't really know how much you are willing to pay until after you evaluate the product. just like when you walk into a car dealer expecting to spend $25k, and they talk you into $30k after you play around with the higher trim package. you walk in trying to sell a product for $N dollars, and you don't know whether they'll bite until you've done the dog and pony show if you tell them $N up front, a lot of people who might have actually been willing to pay just say "no" up front. (this is why hr spends so much time trying to extract the value for $N -- they get rewarded for filtering candidates out, on any basis, so it doesn't matter whether they passed over a good hire)
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Jan 1, 2019 00:35
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I have an on-site technical interview at Google in a week as a software engineer. I'm coming to this straight out of academia (physics doctorate), so I'm not totally sure what to expect. I feel pretty confident about algorithms, code style, and unit testing, I did well on the practice problems that they gave me, and I'm comfortable at a whiteboard. To prepare, I'm working through Cracking the Coding Interview as a refresher, and also one of my friends from the industry is giving me a practice interview. Should I be doing anything else to prepare?
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Jan 1, 2019 02:00
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VikingofRock posted:I have an on-site technical interview at Google in a week as a software engineer. I'm coming to this straight out of academia (physics doctorate), so I'm not totally sure what to expect. I feel pretty confident about algorithms, code style, and unit testing, I did well on the practice problems that they gave me, and I'm comfortable at a whiteboard. To prepare, I'm working through Cracking the Coding Interview as a refresher, and also one of my friends from the industry is giving me a practice interview. Should I be doing anything else to prepare? practice solving whiteboard problems on a whiteboard or a blank piece of paper and specifically exercise explaining your thoughts as you go - what you're thinking of doing and why, and what tradeoffs or alternate routes you may have considered. you should also ask clarifying questions of the interviewer for anything that is vague or open to interpretation. ideally, this should effectively be a back and forth conversation between you and the interviewer, and most of it should occur BEFORE your marker has even touched the board to start writing a solution, to the point that writing it down is largely just a formality after you've already worked it out in the preceding conversation besides making you look good, explaining your strategy also gives the interviewer a window to intervene if you're going too far off track. the whole game is to demonstrate to them that you are methodical at solving problems in a way that even some bay area shithead could understand they generally like problems that can be answered in an hour and that don't have too much domain specific knowledge. the problems will therefore often revolve around data structures and related algorithms. for example a problem that involves applying a hash map or a tree to solve. the best problems are ones that don't require some stupid "trick" to figure out but they often end up that way regardless, particularly if the interviewer is bad at giving (this kind of) interviews. good problems will also have follow-up additions which add complexity to the solution you had provided to the original problem theyd asked. other times the problem may even have been intentionally presented in a vague way to see if you are able to ask follow-up questions (which would be done in the discussion described above) however you may also find yourself being asked some truly crazy things out of left field like "hey what's this thing on your resume about"
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Jan 1, 2019 02:52
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Progressive JPEG posted:however you may also find yourself being asked some truly crazy things out of left field like "hey what's this thing on your resume about" oh gently caress
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Jan 1, 2019 05:41
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Fyi unless you are entry level, you, the candidate, hold a lot of cards. Rejecting someone because they refused to give out salary info is dumb and is basically a giant admission that you are in the business of ripping your employees off, at least that's how it would look. At the end of the day you want the best guy for the job, and throwing that resume in the bin probably hurt your company in the long run because he's now going to go to your competitors for a job. At any rate, the whole thing about not saying salary upfront is not just about showing your hand, it's about keeping the door open with the employer to explore the true value you could provide to them and getting compensated fairly for it. Neither you nor the candidate want to be locking in expectations right at the start when you have no idea what either one of you can truly provide.
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Jan 1, 2019 08:44
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qhat posted:Fyi unless you are entry level, you, the candidate, hold a lot of cards. Rejecting someone because they refused to give out salary info is dumb and is basically a giant admission that you are in the business of ripping your employees off accurate and why i can't wait to put this
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Jan 1, 2019 12:43
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VikingofRock posted:I'm coming to this straight out of academia (physics doctorate), so I'm not totally sure what to expect. make everything an analogy to physics, they love that poo poo Symbolic Butt posted:he tried his best to savage the process
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Jan 1, 2019 15:48
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oops typo!
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Jan 1, 2019 16:19
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Gazpacho posted:it was my understanding that for japanese professionals there are no "next places" demographics are such that a japanese professional is an increasingly rare thing, thus the companies are having to adjust to this reality as well Tatsujin posted:given the standard japanese advice of 'dont make a fuss', but at the same time being a foreigner they probably think that you don't know you're expected to just shut up and sign it’s funny though, the company was founded mostly by foreigners so they should know that there uhh might be a cultural difference of course if you’ve done your phd and all professional experience in japan then chances are good you brainwashed yourself into a weeaboo
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Jan 2, 2019 11:50
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ngl I feel like living and working in japan would be a bad idea, at least for me
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Jan 2, 2019 13:57
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Pollyanna posted:ngl I feel like living and working in japan would be a bad idea, at least for me as far as i can tell from the china/asia thread in the grey forum being a foreigner in japan is second class citizen at best expect also: regressive views on women
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Jan 2, 2019 14:00
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might be a cool place for a working holiday of sorts, just do a few years then leave, but i can't imagine trying to make it there long term as a foreigner
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Jan 2, 2019 14:15
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fritz posted:im deep in the pipeline at a place, to the point where theyve contacted references, and i wish they would just hurry up and make up their minds one way or the other because yowza i want out update: i know its been the holidays but two weeks later and no updates i think maybe i should take the hint, oh well
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Jan 2, 2019 21:05
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Boiled Water posted:as far as i can tell from the china/asia thread in the grey forum being a foreigner in japan is second class citizen at best Cold on a Cob posted:might be a cool place for a working holiday of sorts, just do a few years then leave, but i can't imagine trying to make it there long term as a foreigner I’m still amazed that the us is on average more liberal than japan
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Jan 2, 2019 21:10
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Pollyanna posted:I’m still amazed that the us is on average more liberal than japan japan conceives of itself as a nation-state the united states is not, and never has been. it's literally right in the fuckin name.
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Jan 2, 2019 22:00
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see also: race riots blanketing europe
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Jan 2, 2019 22:01
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ethnostate
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Jan 2, 2019 22:07
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Many places in Europe are extremely isolated and insular and that often overlaps with xenophobia and racism. Japan and a lot or most of east and southeast asia are super conservative and xenophobic and racist. Japan and Korea are 2 of the most misogynistic countries on earth and are suspicious of any dark skinned people. To a degree that's because the populations are ethnically homogenous. So while they may be more liberal or progressive in other ways they have large blind spots.
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Jan 2, 2019 22:13
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