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Pendragon
Jun 18, 2003

HE'S WATCHING YOU
I work for an ~50 employee company that's basically a leader in it's niche field. said company incubated a startup that had some cool tech. I worked with said startup for two years doing all kinds of nifty poo poo and loving it.

recently my time working with the startup came to an end. I decided to gamble:

me: how would you like it if I joined your company?
startup CEO: gently caress yeah let's talk!
my company: ACTIVATE NO POACHING CONTRACT CLAUSE
startup CEO: sorry man :(

on the plus side my company is basically begging me to stay and go into management. on the other hand I feel like I'm missing out.

how pissed should I be, or is this a grass is greener thing?

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Coffee Jones
Jul 4, 2004

. . . .
eh, do you wanna go into management?
if you were, would you get appropriate coaching and support from your directors, etc?

trading off individual contributor vs management is a big move

moving to management means moving to senior management when those guys move elsewhere, and lateral moves to other companies for management roles is also easier.


on the other hand Iíve left two companies over lousy managers (though Iím hardly blameless) so, no pressure :nsacloud:

Pendragon
Jun 18, 2003

HE'S WATCHING YOU
good points. my company had all managers go through coaching last year and I saw the impact it had on my manager (I went from looking for a new job because of him to sticking around). they basically said that coaching would be available in future years along with mentoring in the meantime.

management vs contributor is something I'm working on, leaning towards management. just was thinking about how I would give it up to go with the other company but I should probably let that go as it does me no good to think about a job that doesn't exist.

Workaday Wizard
Oct 23, 2009

by Pragmatica
the manager two levels from me is being poached by our parent company and i am sad :(
he shielded us from so much bullshit i miss him already. you can tell he is a really good manager because the ceo of the parent company had a big fight with our management to get him by name.

Jimmy Carter
Nov 3, 2005

THIS MOTHERDUCKER
FLIES IN STYLE
non-competes should be illegal because gently caress someone owning your brain

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Jimmy Carter posted:

non-competes should be illegal because gently caress someone owning your brain

They aren't illegal here in BC but from what I understand, they are about as enforceable as a contract written on poo poo stained toilet paper.

Ellie Crabcakes
Feb 1, 2008

Stop emailing my boyfriend Gay Crungus

Jimmy Carter posted:

non-competes should be illegal because gently caress someone owning your brain
That's the thing: you can put whatever you like in a contract, but if anything in it is contrary to the law or public policy, it is unenforceable.

California is one such state.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

if one company is a subsidiary of another, or effectively one the dynamics are rather different

Pendragon
Jun 18, 2003

HE'S WATCHING YOU

Jimmy Carter posted:

non-competes should be illegal because gently caress someone owning your brain

agreed. even my manager admitted I probably could force the issue if I wanted (he's liberal but with a libertarian bent) but on the other hand the startup is still heavily dependent on my current company so instigating that kind of bad blood between them isn't good for either one.

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine
Move to management, work there for several years gaining responsibility and trust, then gently caress them in the rear end by leaving at a critical time. If they ask why remind them of this episode.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


i dont like startups and im not sure if thats me being immature and having no idea what it means to be an engineer, or if its me just not jiving with the work-50-hours-a-week-for-peanuts-and-no-stability culture

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


honestly the grand, grand majority of startups could go out of business overnight and the world wouldnt change a bit, which makes me wonder why the startups exist in the first place

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine

Pollyanna posted:

honestly the grand, grand majority of startups could go out of business overnight and the world wouldnt change a bit, which makes me wonder why the startups exist in the first place

Low bond yields leading to pants-on-head retardedly large amounts of VC money getting sprayed around like piss at a Trump party?

TLDR: :capitalism:

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


it sucks cause you trip over startups here in the boston area but most of them arent very good opportunities

prime way to get unemployment payouts tho by having shitloads of stuff to do each week so the unemployment people cant claim youre doing nothing and refuse to pay you

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Pollyanna posted:

honestly the grand, grand majority of startups could go out of business overnight and the world wouldnt change a bit, which makes me wonder why the startups exist in the first place

Because occasionally one succeeds and produces more money than all of losses of the other unsuccessful ones combined.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


qhat posted:

Because occasionally one succeeds and produces more money than all of losses of the other unsuccessful ones combined.

that money should go to the people and not some fat cat's swiss bank accounts

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Peeny Cheez posted:

That's the thing: you can put whatever you like in a contract, but if anything in it is contrary to the law or public policy, it is unenforceable.

California is one such state.

if you have to hire lawyers to fight it out, you have already lost

the company is way more willing to pay for legal work than you are

Pendragon
Jun 18, 2003

HE'S WATCHING YOU

Pollyanna posted:

i dont like startups and im not sure if thats me being immature and having no idea what it means to be an engineer, or if its me just not jiving with the work-50-hours-a-week-for-peanuts-and-no-stability culture

this was the other aspect. the startup may not be around in three to five years as it's still in the somewhat early stages (it has customers but it's burning money to expand). my current company will almost definitely be around for that long and more.

considering I've always looked down on startups in the past it's strange how I approach this one. guess I feel a sense of responsibility towards them and really want to see them succeed after the work I put in.

Pendragon fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Feb 18, 2018

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
if you like the idea of working 60+ hrs/wk to make somebody who is not you extremely rich then go for it!

Pendragon
Jun 18, 2003

HE'S WATCHING YOU
I thought that was the american dream I'm so confused now

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Sapozhnik posted:

if you like the idea of working 60+ hrs/wk to make somebody who is not you extremely rich then go for it!

the idea is that startups would pay you in equity/stocks so itll pay off once they make it big but 1. they dont make it big 2. they dont offer it anyway

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?

Penisface posted:

I am not really greedy in terms of money, but I do not want to do what probably amounts to charity work so that someone else gets rich, especially if this is in a startup-style environment where everyone needs to work towards eventual profitability.

getting compensated fairly for your work is not greed.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


heres my checklist for startups

- what was your last series? (less than series c is a no-go)
- do you offer equity? (if no then no, if yes then still probably no)
- whats your work life balance like? (expectation of 50+ hour workweeks + getting snippy with you when you express your belief in a good work life balance -> no, btw ask me how i came to this conclusion)
- whats your runway? (less than 18 months = dying)
- can you prove to me that you will still be around in 3 years? (they all dont know if they will be around in one year so this question has no point)

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


someone should make startup bingo

Workaday Wizard
Oct 23, 2009

by Pragmatica

Pollyanna posted:

- whats your work life balance like? (expectation of 50+ hour workweeks + getting snippy with you when you express your belief in a good work life balance -> no, btw ask me how i came to this conclusion)

ooh i love story time. tell us :allears:

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?

Pollyanna posted:

the idea is that startups would pay you in equity/stocks so itll pay off once they make it big but 1. they dont make it big 2. they dont offer it anyway

the math behind this almost never makes sense. you have to weigh the equity versus risk of failure. you also have to consider every dollar youíre passing up on from a stable job as an investment in the company.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


My startup checklist: no

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

ooh i love story time. tell us :allears:

recent interview had the people interviewing me telling me that everyone there "values hard work" and "we work hard play hard" and then got really cagey when i started asking about pto and work-life balance. the lady talked about the employees spending most of their day at the office as if it was one of the most amazing things shed seen. it was pretty weird and i didnt like where it was going

there was also a particularly hilarious line "the work life balance is great and the company is very flexible, if i have to leave at five, i can come in at eight"

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


qhat posted:

My startup checklist: no

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene
this might be a good moment to point out that pollyanna has very little industry experience and managed to derail both of the prior interviewing threads

do not engage pollyanna

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

qhat posted:

My startup checklist: no

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Notorious b.s.d. posted:

this might be a good moment to point out that pollyanna has very little industry experience and managed to derail both of the prior interviewing threads

do not engage pollyanna

too bad

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

this might be a good moment to point out that pollyanna has very little industry experience and managed to derail both of the prior interviewing threads
and all of the greyforum job hunting threads

jony neuemonic
Nov 13, 2009

qhat posted:

They aren't illegal here in BC but from what I understand, they are about as enforceable as a contract written on poo poo stained toilet paper.

they're enforceable if they're laser-focused on only limiting things that could demonstrably harm the company.

(none of them are this focused, of course)

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

Pendragon posted:

I work for an ~50 employee company that's basically a leader in it's niche field. said company incubated a startup that had some cool tech. I worked with said startup for two years doing all kinds of nifty poo poo and loving it.

recently my time working with the startup came to an end. I decided to gamble:

me: how would you like it if I joined your company?
startup CEO: gently caress yeah let's talk!
my company: ACTIVATE NO POACHING CONTRACT CLAUSE
startup CEO: sorry man :(

on the plus side my company is basically begging me to stay and go into management. on the other hand I feel like I'm missing out.

how pissed should I be, or is this a grass is greener thing?

if you asked them first it isnt poaching

if the problem is a noncompete then lol get out of your lovely state and move to CA

i am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice

Pendragon
Jun 18, 2003

HE'S WATCHING YOU

Progressive JPEG posted:

if you asked them first it isnt poaching

if the problem is a noncompete then lol get out of your lovely state and move to CA

i am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice

bad wording on my part then. basically it's a clause saying that the startup can't hire any of my company's employees.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost

Progressive JPEG posted:

if you asked them first it isnt poaching

if the problem is a noncompete then lol get out of your lovely state and move to CA

i am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice

o satan who ruleth over hell and all the souls of the damned therein, grant that i may never be forced by circumstances to move to california. hail.

never mind the horrid sprawl and cost of living, i can think of one, maybe two people who i know personally that currently reside in california who i do not utterly, utterly loathe. including a few people who were more or less alright before they moved there. i swear the put something psychoactive in the water in that loving place.

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

by Fluffdaddy
Slippery Tilde
there is no purpose in asking about work life balance in an interview because you will never get a straight answer and ultimately establishing the balance is your responsibility

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Gazpacho posted:

there is no purpose in asking about work life balance in an interview because you will never get a straight answer and ultimately establishing the balance is your responsibility

if they wonít even lie and say ďwe have good work life balanceĒ then thatís an alarm bell

just like if you donít have something ready about why you want to leave your employer

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Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


Gazpacho posted:

there is no purpose in asking about work life balance in an interview because you will never get a straight answer and ultimately establishing the balance is your responsibility

i ask the balance question not because i cant handle it but because they cant

i need to know ahead of time the expectations placed upon me and i need to know if those expectations include 50 hour work weeks

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