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FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

ThePeavstenator posted:

Countered again, had a conversation with the hiring manager and got them to move more on the RSUs and signing bonus. I'm going to accept tomorrow! :yotj:
hell yeah

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cheque_some
Dec 6, 2006
The Wizard of Menlo Park

i had pretty good experiences at faangs but my bad amazon interview they guy handed me a pen and a stack of paper and gave me a fizz-buzz level problem except it had like ten inputs and you had to do a whole bunch of things like

print true if the first number is even
print the sum of the second, third, and fourth input
print the product of the fifth and sixth inputs
print the largest number that was input

and a bunch of stuff like that. and of course it wasn't written down since he was just coming up with it off the top of his head. then he was like, "OK let me know when you're done", and went back to working on his laptop.


then in the next interview the hiring manager didn't flinch when I jokingly asked if they worked 14 hour days but just said something like, "That might be a little high."

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:



ThePeavstenator posted:

Countered again, had a conversation with the hiring manager and got them to move more on the RSUs and signing bonus. I'm going to accept tomorrow! :yotj:

another victory for the cjs interviewing thread :yotj:

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?


FMguru posted:

hell yeah



keep those figgies coming

Glorgnole
Oct 23, 2012



ThePeavstenator posted:

Countered again, had a conversation with the hiring manager and got them to move more on the RSUs and signing bonus. I'm going to accept tomorrow! :yotj:

taking notes on this powerful "double counter" technique

ThePeavstenator
Dec 18, 2012

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:

Establish the Buns

:burger::burger::burger::burger::burger:


Glorgnole posted:

taking notes on this powerful "double counter" technique

:v: more money pls
:colbert: how about just a little more
:v: a bit more than that
:colbert: ok

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'


Share Bear posted:

Huge Bank Clan - Mystery of Type Boxing

TerminalRaptor
Nov 6, 2012

Mostly Harmless


How does vacation negotiations typically go when negotiating an offer? At this point in my career I'm less interested in figgies and more interested spending as much time as possible in not doing the thing your hiring me to do.
Do you negotiate yourself higher on just overall PTO or do they put in you higher on their PTO schedule. e.g. We're going to treat your PTO as if you had 8 years at the corp and next year you'll be treated as if you had nine years?

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?


I have never met a company that had any flexibility in negotiating vacation time, and they always revert you back to square one. at least big companies. it’s an hr policy and recruiters and managers have no leeway to move it.

ADINSX
Sep 9, 2003

Wanna run with my crew huh? Rule cyberspace and crunch numbers like I do?



CPColin posted:

A coworker a few jobs ago read that one article everybody did that said volatile+synchronized in Java wasn't enough to prevent double-initialization of your precious singletons and started adding extra checks and double-locks and stuff all over. I was then excited to remove all of that poo poo, because the problem with volatile hadn't been a thing since Java 1.6, but none of the articles whining about it had been updated since before 1.6 came out.

Granny init'in, not double locking like you should

TerminalRaptor
Nov 6, 2012

Mostly Harmless


The Management posted:

I have never met a company that had any flexibility in negotiating vacation time, and they always revert you back to square one. at least big companies. it’s an hr policy and recruiters and managers have no leeway to move it.

That's one of my biggest fears about going somewhere else. I'm up to 30 days of PTO and it'd suck to go to square one. When I interviewed at Microsoft years ago I knew it was inflexible, but people have told me that it's not necessarily true elsewhere.

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:



I think it mostly depends on the size of the company. Big corps absolutely won’t budge and med-big as well. Medium size companies of about 500 you could maybe pull it off while small companies under 100 that basically don’t have an HR department you could have a ton of flexibility if they even have a formal vacation policy.

Pile Of Garbage
May 28, 2007





idk about the US but in AU full-time employees earn a mandated 4 weeks of annual leave per-year and employers are required by law to pay out accrued leave balances (personal, sick and long-service) when your employment ends. as such employers consider leave accrual to be a debt obligation that they have to work into budgets and earnings and whatnot.

as such most leave accrual regimens are uniform company-wide and set in stone, usually at the mandated minimum rate. any flexibility towards leave is geared towards encouraging you to reduce your accrued leave. e.g. my employer lets you cash-out up to two weeks (76 hours) of accrued annual leave each financial year. in addition my employer applies ~13% leave-loading which means you get paid more when you consume annual leave.

on the other hand i guess if you lived somewhere with no legally mandated leave accrual or pay-outs then employers might be more "flexible" (read: actually screw you over)

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


Pile Of Garbage posted:

idk about the US but in AU full-time employees earn a mandated 4 weeks of annual leave per-year and employers are required by law to pay out accrued leave balances (personal, sick and long-service) when your employment ends. as such employers consider leave accrual to be a debt obligation that they have to work into budgets and earnings and whatnot.

as such most leave accrual regimens are uniform company-wide and set in stone, usually at the mandated minimum rate. any flexibility towards leave is geared towards encouraging you to reduce your accrued leave. e.g. my employer lets you cash-out up to two weeks (76 hours) of accrued annual leave each financial year. in addition my employer applies ~13% leave-loading which means you get paid more when you consume annual leave.

on the other hand i guess if you lived somewhere with no legally mandated leave accrual or pay-outs then employers might be more "flexible" (read: actually screw you over)

I know Australia has a lot of issues but as far as the benefits go ffs does it sound nice, even posting from the supposedly social state europe

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



Pile Of Garbage posted:

idk about the US...on the other hand i guess if you lived somewhere with no legally mandated leave accrual or pay-outs then employers might be more "flexible" (read: actually screw you over)

Sounds like you do know about the US.

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

a bunch of tech companies now are jumping on the "unlimited PTO" train, which is dumb and bad

its like they figured out that nobody takes all their vacation anyways, and accrued PTO is effectively an exit bonus

so now we all get a system where:

1. you can't say "welp, gotta use up my PTO, so I guess it's vacation time"
2. the only rules about how much you can take are unspoken

Poopernickel fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Aug 28, 2020

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.



TerminalRaptor posted:

How does vacation negotiations typically go when negotiating an offer? At this point in my career I'm less interested in figgies and more interested spending as much time as possible in not doing the thing your hiring me to do.
Do you negotiate yourself higher on just overall PTO or do they put in you higher on their PTO schedule. e.g. We're going to treat your PTO as if you had 8 years at the corp and next year you'll be treated as if you had nine years?

I'm lucky in that I live in the US and have consistently been able to argue for extra vacation time. Honestly, it should be one of your first asks after you find out about the benefits (that is, "are you flexible on that number," not "I want 25 days" right off the bat). If they turn you down it lets you have something material to argue in terms of additional compensation. Most places were happy to get me to at least 4 weeks. If they're willing to credit you with your existing experience off the bat, all the better, but it doesn't hurt to ask for a few more (just say you have more and you'd like them to match it, worst they can say is "no"). I got a gargantuan multinational to revise their leave up 8 days from initial offer, though their salary was too low for me to consider the offer.

The exception I can think of in terms of vacay negotiation is the place that wanted to massively overpay me but only gave 1 week vacation the first year and absolutely wouldn't budge. There were a few red flags on that one. But this is definitely one of those "you have only to gain" elements of negotiation.

Poopernickel posted:

a bunch of tech companies now are jumping on the "unlimited PTO" train, which is dumb and bad

its like they figured out that nobody takes all their vacation anyways, and accrued PTO is effectively an exit bonus

so now we all get a system where:

1. you can't say "welp, gotta use up my PTO, so I guess it's vacation time"
2. the only rules about how much you can take are unspoken

Unlimited PTO is a trap 95% of the time unless there's a minimum amount of days you HAVE to take, especially as a fresh hire where most people are scared witless of appearing lazy.

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

"I believe I did, Bob."



I had to remind my employer that Canadian law mandates that my unused PTO be paid back and the HR system needed to toggle a special flag that let me track and accrue time because they got rid of it (unlimited) for the majority of employees who are US-based.

I told them I was fine not tracking my time off if they didn’t let me, but they’d have to pay all of it at the end of the year even if I took it.

Effectively working for a US employer with unlimited PTO as a Canadian gives me the best of both worlds where I still have a minimal amount of PTO but no clearly defined ceiling

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?


unlimited pto is a huge scam. one, it lets the company no longer carry a vacation balance on its books, which accountants love. two, they don’t have to pay you your unearned vacation balance when you leave. three, they know many employees reach the maximum earned leave and then feel compelled to take time off to reduce the balance. if there’s no maximum, some people will never take a vacation. it also removes the excuse of “I have to take time off now, I’ve hit the limit”.

if you work at a place with unlimited pto, select a number of weeks at minimum for yourself and enforce it. and before you quit take a few months off.

jesus WEP
Oct 17, 2004




Fun Shoe

unlimited denied pto requests

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine


Wisconsin isn't a mandatory payout state (I once worked for a place that was based in Colorado (which might be one) did pay me out, which is about the only honorable thing they ever did).

E: They did send me a legit v.:nice: floral arrangement when BVMM died but I'm pretty sure that was the receptionist/office manager.
E2: :actually: the local HR "Director" was pre-acquisition by Colorado and was also good people. But only evil and wickedness came from Colorado.

Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Aug 28, 2020

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

The Management posted:

unlimited pto is a huge scam. one, it lets the company no longer carry a vacation balance on its books, which accountants love. two, they don’t have to pay you your unearned vacation balance when you leave. three, they know many employees reach the maximum earned leave and then feel compelled to take time off to reduce the balance. if there’s no maximum, some people will never take a vacation. it also removes the excuse of “I have to take time off now, I’ve hit the limit”.
yep yep yep. also:
- the vague and undefined rules for what counts as reasonable use of the unlimited vacation policy gives employers another cause for termination of an unwanted employee for "abusing" it
- since people tend to match their effort against their coworkers (no one wants to be seen as the laziest, more vacation-taking member of the team) the policy acts as an overall ratchet downwards on people taking vacation time

it sucks and i hate it

Shaggar
Apr 26, 2006


Nap Ghost

maine has mandatory payout for "vacation" time only so if your PTO is a mix of vacation and other leave types like sick leave it doesnt have to be paid out.

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice


i’m at a place with unlimited pto that’s young enough to not have the inevitable problems with it surface (e.g. the ratcheting down has not become noticeable and you don’t “request” time off, you just inform your manager when you won’t be showing up) so it’s pretty nice. i have zero confidence that it will remain nice indefinitely though, hopefully i have a new job by the time it sucks.

EIDE Van Hagar
Dec 8, 2000

Beep Boop

The Management posted:

I have never met a company that had any flexibility in negotiating vacation time, and they always revert you back to square one. at least big companies. it’s an hr policy and recruiters and managers have no leeway to move it.

same, i have always taken the policy into account when deciding where to go, but never got an offer that says i just get more vacation.

i have worked at places that had some good policies to make it flexible, though.

one where you accrue 4 weeks a year and can carry over to the next year, and you could accrue up to 10 weeks before it started automatically being sold back to you one week at a time.

one had an “official” 3 weeks/year “guidance” but also said it was “between you and your manager” so sometimes you could get more, seemed especially useful to visit family in a foreign country.

current employer lets you decide at the beginning of the year if you want to buy an extra week, which allows some flexibility but also requires planning.

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan




i have "unlimited" PTO at my job but I have not taken much of it since I started. I have a week off coming up though and I took a few days this month just to actually use some of it since yeah if you have no balance you don't have a number compelling you to take time off.

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan




EIDE Van Hagar posted:

same, i have always taken the policy into account when deciding where to go, but never got an offer that says i just get more vacation.

i have worked at places that had some good policies to make it flexible, though.

one where you accrue 4 weeks a year and can carry over to the next year, and you could accrue up to 10 weeks before it started automatically being sold back to you one week at a time.

one had an “official” 3 weeks/year “guidance” but also said it was “between you and your manager” so sometimes you could get more, seemed especially useful to visit family in a foreign country.

current employer lets you decide at the beginning of the year if you want to buy an extra week, which allows some flexibility but also requires planning.

My old job would let you "buy" extra PTO but it actually cost you more money than just requesting unpaid leave for the extra time lol

hot dog event
Apr 17, 2002



gently caress unlimited PTO. job prior to this one instituted it while i worked there. should have kept a copy of the email when they transitioned everyone over to see what the glossed-over reasons were for changing

agreed losing your accrual rate sucks when you change jobs

EIDE Van Hagar
Dec 8, 2000

Beep Boop

“use it or lose it” is actually very good because it means the office is dead around end of the year and you can take time off around the holidays without people guilt tripping you.

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?


EIDE Van Hagar posted:

“use it or lose it” is actually very good because it means the office is dead around end of the year and you can take time off around the holidays without people guilt tripping you.

no, it means you should take time off at a different time when everyone is working. during the holidays when no one is in the office you can yospost all day

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine


How depressed is working IT for a library likely to make me?

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015


My country's government has been talking about making 5 weeks the legal minimum, because most companies already offer that much anyway (the current legal minimum is 4). It's good.

elcannon
Jun 24, 2009


Job I just left had unlimited PTO ("We're all adults here, just use your best judgement") and it was a big factor that made me start my search. I've never been somewhere that would buy out vacation days but that seems like it would create situations where some person that never takes time off becomes a single point of failure. Combined with the mentioned additional accounting burden I have no idea why a company would choose it over "use it or lose it".

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme



I do appreciate the finance/regulatory mandatory week vacation every X months as an anti-fraud measure.

Also says something about staffing levels, also margins in that industry.

Arcsech
Aug 5, 2008


elcannon posted:

Job I just left had unlimited PTO ("We're all adults here, just use your best judgement") and it was a big factor that made me start my search. I've never been somewhere that would buy out vacation days but that seems like it would create situations where some person that never takes time off becomes a single point of failure. Combined with the mentioned additional accounting burden I have no idea why a company would choose it over "use it or lose it".

in Colorado employers are required to buy out unused accrued vacation, and are required to let you bank up to two and a half years worth

it’s really nice but I feel like it certainly encourages me to take less vacation and always have an unused buffer so they gotta pay me if they lay me off or whatever

Hughlander
May 11, 2005



Is one of the things I like/dislike the most about where I am now. 5 weeks officially with no roll-over, unofficially 2 weeks roll-over.


And that policy isn't changing for 2020. I have to fight tooth and nail to get people to take time off because it's still not going to be rolled over. Basically every 1:1 I bring up their time off plans and cajole them to plan at least 1 week off a quarter in a chunk to not burn out from this plague year.

cheque_some
Dec 6, 2006
The Wizard of Menlo Park

I'd rather have a defined number of days off, but I did interview at a bigco that seemed to have a decent unlimited PTO because they also gave 4th of July and Christmas/New Years week off. And managers I talked to said talking 4 weeks off on top of that was pretty typical.

Steve Jorbs
Jan 1, 2009


Late last year my company sent an email saying we would be switching over to unlimited PTO starting in 2020.

Then they sent a follow up that unlimited actually meant up to 20 days per year without needing special approval. This included any sick time.

Then they followed up saying any unused vacation in the old system would be cashed out, but only if you left the company before Jan 1 2021. Otherwise it’s gone.

Then they let us know that any vacation time booked past mid December would be taken from the new PTO system since the pay period ended in 2020.

Poopernickel
Oct 28, 2005

electricity bad

Fun Shoe

Steve Jorbs posted:

Late last year my company sent an email saying we would be switching over to unlimited PTO starting in 2020.

Then they sent a follow up that unlimited actually meant up to 20 days per year without needing special approval. This included any sick time.

Then they followed up saying any unused vacation in the old system would be cashed out, but only if you left the company before Jan 1 2021. Otherwise it’s gone.

Then they let us know that any vacation time booked past mid December would be taken from the new PTO system since the pay period ended in 2020.

:shepface:

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FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

Steve Jorbs posted:

Late last year my company sent an email saying we would be switching over to unlimited PTO starting in 2020.

Then they sent a follow up that unlimited actually meant up to 20 days per year without needing special approval. This included any sick time.

Then they followed up saying any unused vacation in the old system would be cashed out, but only if you left the company before Jan 1 2021. Otherwise it’s gone.

Then they let us know that any vacation time booked past mid December would be taken from the new PTO system since the pay period ended in 2020.
please consult the title of this thread and take appropriate action

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