Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan




i got my first tech job from a 3rd party recruiter so they can be good to get your foot in the door. I immediately started ignoring them after that though

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



The Management posted:

third party recruiters are a legacy from before the internet was useful. they are entirely garbage. don’t talk to them.

first party recruiters are basically secretaries for scheduling interviews. be nice to them

That's the least you can expect, and probably the most you can expect from 99% of people in those positions. There are exceptions, and if you get lucky enough to meet one of them, work on that relationship.

titaniumone
Jun 10, 2001



The Management posted:

third party recruiters are a legacy from before the internet was useful. they are entirely garbage. don’t talk to them.

first party recruiters are basically secretaries for scheduling interviews. be nice to them

Dealing with a series of first party recruiters; they have all been slow, unreliable, and confused. I get the purpose they serve, I'm just amazed at how ineffective they appear to be at serving it.

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice


third party recruiters are usually fine as long as you don't expect more of them than knowing about an open listing and filling out the job application for you

multigl
Nov 22, 2005

"Who's cool and has two thumbs? This guy!"


The Management posted:

third party recruiters are a legacy from before the internet was useful. they are entirely garbage. don’t talk to them.

first party recruiters are basically secretaries for scheduling interviews. be nice to them

working with a good recruiter (as a hiring manager) makes so much difference. They're worth a ton.

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?


multigl posted:

working with a good recruiter (as a hiring manager) makes so much difference. They're worth a ton.

it’s great as a candidate, too. very rare to find, though.

jesus WEP
Oct 17, 2004




Fun Shoe

got promoted to team lead, :rip: me i guess

buttchugging adderall
May 7, 2007

COME GET SOME


jesus WEP posted:

got promoted to team lead, :rip: me i guess

I got that earlier this year.

loving RIP man.

jesus WEP
Oct 17, 2004




Fun Shoe

honestly the team has been chugging along pretty well without a team lead and i had been doing a lot of the talking to product/business side anyway so i might as well get the recognition for it and less expectations to crank tickets out too

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


The Management posted:

third party recruiters are a legacy from before the internet was useful. they are entirely garbage. don’t talk to them.

first party recruiters are basically secretaries for scheduling interviews. be nice to them

one city I lived in single agency controlled 90% of the dev job market, both as third-party and first-party (contracted) recruiters, including for multibillion multinationals

which sucked because you had to be nice to them when they did the usual third-party recruiter dick moves, because it was the only way to get at the good stuff

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 14:13 on Oct 22, 2020

Ither
Jan 30, 2010


I got an offer for 30% more salary which is great.

BUT the contract they want me to sign is very restrictive. It has one of those "we own everything you do" clauses.

I would hate to have to turn it down because of legal issues, but I feel like I may have to.

I wonder if I could leverage the offer to get my current job to pay me more.

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice


Ither posted:

I got an offer for 30% more salary which is great.

BUT the contract they want me to sign is very restrictive. It has one of those "we own everything you do" clauses.

I would hate to have to turn it down because of legal issues, but I feel like I may have to.

I wonder if I could leverage the offer to get my current job to pay me more.

did you ask them to take that clause out? it might not work but there’s no harm in asking

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004





if you live in California, that's unenforceable so long as you use your own time and equipment and it's not based on work you were doing for them

quote:

2870. (a) Any provision in an employment agreement which provides that an employee shall assign, or offer to assign, any of his or her rights in an invention to his or her employer shall not apply to an invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information except for those inventions that either:

Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer; or
Result from any work performed by the employee for the employer.


(b) To the extent a provision in an employment agreement purports to require an employee to assign an invention otherwise excluded from being required to be assigned under subdivision (a), the provision is against the public policy of this state and is unenforceable.

if you don't, then I am unhelpful

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:



yeah a lot of those clauses are unenforceable and they only put them in to intimidate you. it's a bad sign that it's there in the first place but look into your state's laws regarding that kind of stuff

Schadenboner
Aug 15, 2011

by Shine


Ither posted:

I got an offer for 30% more salary which is great.

BUT the contract they want me to sign is very restrictive. It has one of those "we own everything you do" clauses.

I would hate to have to turn it down because of legal issues, but I feel like I may have to.

I wonder if I could leverage the offer to get my current job to pay me more.

Console yourself with the realization that you've never made anything of value in the past and are e.unlikely to break this, your lifetime habit?

:shrug:

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

E: As it appears likely that this post gave offensive I feel that I should stress that I meant that all IT jobs are socially worthless and none of us have made or will make anything of value not to imply that Ither was an outlier in some way. I am certain that Ither is no more or less worthless in his production of socially meaningful output than any other IT worker. We are all equally worthless.

Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Oct 23, 2020

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009


One of the few very good employment laws in California. That and non-competes being against the law. If only California wasn’t at-will and right to work (yes I know the difference between the two.)

MononcQc
May 29, 2007

"I believe I did, Bob."



you can and should negotiate on these clauses. if they won’t budge, you can likely ask for an exception list for existing and ongoing creative projects you have. if they don’t move on that either then you can feel free to decide this is unacceptable and pass on them while being clear this is the reason.

Postmates only wanted the whitelist so I decided to bury them with links of everything I did in the last 10 years (including every repo I ever formed) and even introduced my Twitter timeline as exempt (because I sometimes “experiment with ideas” there) and the lawyers can get paid reading my loving tweets. I stopped short of submitting my posting history here but I considered it for a while.

they were fine getting the 15+ pages of 10pt-sized listing of everything and I never heard back.

Ither
Jan 30, 2010


Achmed Jones posted:

if you live in California, that's unenforceable so long as you use your own time and equipment and it's not based on work you were doing for them


if you don't, then I am unhelpful

I'm currently in Georgia, which is, unfortunately, not a bastion of employee rights.

Schadenboner posted:

Console yourself with the realization that you've never made anything of value in the past and are e.unlikely to break this, your lifetime habit?

:shrug:

Part of me is saying this and that "everybody" signs these contracts.

Another other part is screaming: "NO, I WON'T SUBMIT!"


MononcQc posted:

you can and should negotiate on these clauses. if they won’t budge, you can likely ask for an exception list for existing and ongoing creative projects you have. if they don’t move on that either then you can feel free to decide this is unacceptable and pass on them while being clear this is the reason.

Postmates only wanted the whitelist so I decided to bury them with links of everything I did in the last 10 years (including every repo I ever formed) and even introduced my Twitter timeline as exempt (because I sometimes “experiment with ideas” there) and the lawyers can get paid reading my loving tweets. I stopped short of submitting my posting history here but I considered it for a while.

they were fine getting the 15+ pages of 10pt-sized listing of everything and I never heard back.

They have space for me to list past inventions.

But the mere existence of such a thing makes my skin crawl.

I'll see if they're willing to negotiate, but this is an international company, so I'll doubt they'll bend over for little old me.

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?


every large company I’ve worked for has had these clauses. they’re mostly meaningless. nobody cares about your open source porn media server. the only place they get touchy is if you patent something that directly affects their business, or you start a business that makes tons of money while you were employed by them. there are ways around both of these.

if you have projects you care about or things you want to keep contributing to, give them a list. they shouldn’t give you any problems about it.

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004





you can also just cross that poo poo out and sign and see if they complain. I have no idea what the success rate would be on that though

Destroyenator
Dec 27, 2004

Don't ask me lady, I live in beer

i had one of those in an offer and i pushed back on it. ended up getting a phone call with a vp who promised me they got it, and we could exempt anything i spoke to my manager about, and that it was known thing that legal/hr just didn't understand it but it wasn't his priority to fight them on this at the moment

i ended up accepting and it worked out fine. it can be a red flag but there's no reason not to ask and see how they react. (this was not a huge multinational though)

Not a Children
Oct 9, 2012

Don't need a holster if you never stop shooting.



Had an offer a few years ago with a non-compete clause that applied to "companies in the same industry within 75 miles of the region in which we operate"

Tried to get the hiring manager to strike it and he told me "well the lawyers say we gotta put it in there" and I kind of absentmindedly blurted out "well, who's in charge, you or the lawyers?", he laughed and changed the subject

They didn't pull the offer but I don't think that won me any points. Didn't end up taking it

Ither
Jan 30, 2010


The Management posted:

every large company I’ve worked for has had these clauses. they’re mostly meaningless. nobody cares about your open source porn media server. the only place they get touchy is if you patent something that directly affects their business, or you start a business that makes tons of money while you were employed by them. there are ways around both of these.

if you have projects you care about or things you want to keep contributing to, give them a list. they shouldn’t give you any problems about it.


I currently work for a small company whose contract doesn't have an Invention clause.

I'm wondering if that's my limit then. Small companies with no real HR. Or contract work.

Ither fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Oct 22, 2020

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


last company I worked for (posted here about it) was tiny but still had one of those; they also had a non-compete but I looked at the law and it was unenforcable

they did let me take it out, but then they tried to slip it back in after I started the job via some minor paperwork

I later found out some of their former employees started out a competing company at one point so that's presumably why they had it

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Oct 22, 2020

Hughlander
May 11, 2005



My Modus Operandi is if a crossout and initial doesn't work is to just list a bunch of code words and a super vague description

"Cowboy, a network protocol"
"Sliver, a framework"
etc...

The Management
Jan 2, 2010

sup, bitch?


Ither posted:

I currently work for a small company who's contract doesn't have an Invention clause.

I'm wondering if that's my limit then. Small companies with no real HR. Or contract work.

ask yourself what exactly you’re trying to protect?

if some day you have a brilliant idea that will make millions but is in conflict with your job you can quit and then “come up with it”. if you’re publishing software or an app, make a company to protect your identity.

if you’re the chief architect of apple’s chip division and you decide to go off with some of your colleagues and start a new chip company, talk to a lawyer.

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice


an offer came in:

-20% total comp bump
-66% salary/33% cash bonus instead of having a quarter of total comp vest over four years
-4% 401k match instead of zero
-mega backdoor roth access
-far more exciting technical opportunity and room for technical growth

potential downsides:
-work/life balance is amazing at my current place and it will probably degrade a bit
-i’d be going from a company with a mission i actively support to a company with a mission i’m neutral about

i love my team and it will be sad to leave but it’s hard to argue with the math on this, right? a promotion at my current place is at least nine months out and would get me to total comp parity with the offer but none of the other bullets

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



Depends on how you value the numbers over the combination of the mission and work life balance.

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015


Not a Children posted:

Had an offer a few years ago with a non-compete clause that applied to "companies in the same industry within 75 miles of the region in which we operate"

Tried to get the hiring manager to strike it and he told me "well the lawyers say we gotta put it in there" and I kind of absentmindedly blurted out "well, who's in charge, you or the lawyers?", he laughed and changed the subject

They didn't pull the offer but I don't think that won me any points. Didn't end up taking it

That would be so hilariously illegal over here, the hardest part of getting ruling against it would be to wait until a judge stops laughing.

asur
Dec 28, 2012


raminasi posted:

an offer came in:

-20% total comp bump
-66% salary/33% cash bonus instead of having a quarter of total comp vest over four years
-4% 401k match instead of zero
-mega backdoor roth access
-far more exciting technical opportunity and room for technical growth

potential downsides:
-work/life balance is amazing at my current place and it will probably degrade a bit
-i’d be going from a company with a mission i actively support to a company with a mission i’m neutral about

i love my team and it will be sad to leave but it’s hard to argue with the math on this, right? a promotion at my current place is at least nine months out and would get me to total comp parity with the offer but none of the other bullets

If you mean that you would get 20% more, but at the old job 33% of your total comp is in stock, that vests at least yearly, then I think this is a lot closer than 20% indicates. The stock could appreciate and stock grants are rarely taken away while a bonus can be cut.

EIDE Van Hagar
Dec 8, 2000

Beep Boop

raminasi posted:

did you ask them to take that clause out? it might not work but there’s no harm in asking

yeah if its anything beyond “we own things you do related to your job” i just ask to change it to that.

President Beep
Apr 29, 2009





i have to have a car because otherwise i cant drive around the country solving mysteries while being doggedly pursued by federal marshals for a crime i did not commit (9/11)


lol if u r not too terrified to negotiate the terms of your employment :negative:

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice


asur posted:

If you mean that you would get 20% more, but at the old job 33% of your total comp is in stock, that vests at least yearly, then I think this is a lot closer than 20% indicates. The stock could appreciate and stock grants are rarely taken away while a bonus can be cut.

my lazy napkin math wasn’t quite right. it’s:
current job: 71% salary, 18% equity, 10% cash bonus
new job: 66% salary, 33% cash bonus. total is 20% higher than above total, or 25% if you factor in the 401k match.

i don’t like saying “the stock will appreciate” because it could also depreciate. plus, a chunk is in s-sars, which means it needs to appreciate for me to actually get to the official grant dollar amount. and the offer is for a finance company, where “target bonus” means that if they don’t hit it you immediately start looking for a new job.

Gazpacho
Jun 18, 2004

NUKE THEIR ASS
TAKE THEIR GAS


Slippery Tilde

why are we not getting applications :iiam:

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015


I have actually never seen an underscore in email address in the wild.

Sites that don't allow '+' can gently caress right off though.

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'


the correct way to validate an email address is to send a validation link to it

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007

It's okay if you have any questions.
:fart:



Xarn posted:

I have actually never seen an underscore in email address in the wild.

Sites that don't allow '+' can gently caress right off though.

I've had at least one email address with an underscore. It's not as common as it used to be but underscore is a valid character in an email address.

Captain Foo posted:

the correct way to validate an email address is to send a validation link to it

This is the right way.

Xik
Mar 10, 2011



Dinosaur Gum

In the past I've had some pretty terrible interview/recruiter experiences but would like to post about my latest (very positive) one that resulted in switching from contracting back to employee, the whole process took like one business week. It was three business days from first interview to accepted written offer.
  • Day 1: Contacted by in-house recruiter I had talked to on a previous occassion. I'd been recommended by a former collegue. Replied that I might be interested as contract at current place would be ending soon.
  • Day 2: Received full details of role, tech stack, processes etc. Confirmed interest.
  • Day 3: Recruiter passed on cv, received first interview invite.
  • Day 4: First remote interview, received technical test after.
  • Day 5: Submitted technical test, second remote interview.
  • Day 6: Third remote interview, verbal offer, request for legal docs. Then later that evening, received and accepted written offer

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

you can tell that they arent wallowing in despair if they get back to you quick, which is a remarkably good proxy for

1. there not being any little shits on the team and
2. peeps actually wanting what they sell and
3. what they sell being worth something (different than the previous),

which are fundamentally the three things you give a poo poo about

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Pile Of Garbage
May 28, 2007





ultrafilter posted:

I've had at least one email address with an underscore. It's not as common as it used to be but underscore is a valid character in an email address.

my first ever e-mail account that i opened with hotmail in maybe '98 had an underscore in it

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply