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bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

did you squeeze in negotiations yet? is tc and everything after the squeeze?

worst comes to worst, toss a coin and ignore the result of the coin toss just go with the result you wanted from the toss

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cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






bob dobbs is dead posted:

did you squeeze in negotiations yet? is tc and everything after the squeeze?

worst comes to worst, toss a coin and ignore the result of the coin toss just go with the result you wanted from the toss

A i have squeezed relatively B offer, it was very apparent during talks, and B people have an email implicitly informing them over the kind of counter offer they’d have to muster to compete just on money terms alone

and yeah i kind of know what i want here, im pretty sure im predominately having childhood poverty brainworms over walking away from ~american salary~ and or possibly getting foot in the door for further american jobs (which i know is not how it all works)

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

theres a lotta peeps who havent gotten w the program on 250k, 350k, 450k usd comps in america, too. its just figgielands prime and secondus where you get that, and w peeps who understand the change in the last few years.

if its america but not figgieland prime or secondus or maybe nyc, its often more disappointing than you would think compared to eurofiggielands, esp eurofiggieland prime

from what you said im guessing you're in 95th, 98th percentile in london so like 200k gbp or whereabouts, tell me if thats a wrong guess. sfba 98th percentile is like 600k usd nowadays so its still beating it but we're well into diminishing returns there

bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Jan 8, 2022

distortion park
Apr 25, 2011



cinci zoo sniper posted:

with field transition ill clearly become a bit more junior in the market


if you do go for the finance one I'd strongly recommend trying to get a good feel for how stuff actually works (if your aren't already). There's a huge amount of bs and pants on head misunderstandings about how stuff works, even from normally reputable sources.

sorting Matt Levine's newsletter from oldest to newest (last few years his writing style has got a bit ott) and reading as many as you can put up with will give you a huge advantage over people who have never poked their head out if whatever little corner of finance tech they've worked on

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






that is a fair reminder, my reading of america is very tech skewed and i do forget at times that a lot of the country is literally worse off than the average latvians

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

levine is totally a burnout currently, i wouldnt expect his newsletter to exist for more than a year or two. but it will get funnier (however the financial talkin shittier) for that duration i think. the gamestop poo poo broke him, lol

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






pointsofdata posted:

if you do go for the finance one I'd strongly recommend trying to get a good feel for how stuff actually works (if your aren't already). There's a huge amount of bs and pants on head misunderstandings about how stuff works, even from normally reputable sources.

sorting Matt Levine's newsletter from oldest to newest (last few years his writing style has got a bit ott) and reading as many as you can put up with will give you a huge advantage over people who have never poked their head out if whatever little corner of finance tech they've worked on

that’s part of the draw for me, i want to significantly improve my econ/finance chops - having to do that on the clock (which i will need) is a privilege im ready to compensate for in other areas. pretty sure that’s a solid part of the reason they gave me an offer, that im a business enjoyer and have an easily provable track record on rolling my sleeves up wrt domain expertise in a different area of finance

ill check levine readings, cheers - i follow him on twitter, but i haven’t looked at his newsletter or systemically read his column on bloom

distortion park
Apr 25, 2011



bob dobbs is dead posted:

levine is totally a burnout currently, i wouldnt expect his newsletter to exist for more than a year or two. but it will get funnier (however the financial talkin shittier) for that duration i think. the gamestop poo poo broke him, lol

Yeah it's still fun with all the bitcoin stuff but less educational in a professionally useful way

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

its a silly buggers time. i think in many ways we're playing musical chairs before some kind of collapse but i have no idea on timings so here we are, going around the chairs

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






bob dobbs is dead posted:

from what you said im guessing you're in 95th, 98th percentile in london so like 200k gbp or whereabouts, tell me if thats a wrong guess. sfba 98th percentile is like 600k usd nowadays so its still beating it but we're well into diminishing returns there

nah, guaranteed 70% raise is over a 5 figure eurocontinent job. while the tc is elastic for one of the jobs, it’s difficult to imagine it stretching _this_ far out of the gate

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

ok, wrong guess

best of luck squeezing eurofiggieland, you'll prolly have to move to an american figgieland to get another 70% raise

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






bob dobbs is dead posted:

ok, wrong guess

best of luck squeezing eurofiggieland, you'll prolly have to move to an american figgieland to get another 70% raise

we’ll see, for all we know america could be plaguelands in a few years. besides, im starting as a l3/l4 equivalent at the finance job, and just l4 at the american

finding an entirely different job paying 70% above either of those right now would be impossible for me in europe though, i agree

hot dog event
Apr 17, 2002



on the verge of a decision here, fingers crossed

option 1 is a manufacturing company that makes construction materials, double digit growth in five out of the last ten years, only 2020 was the down year. 12mo and 24mo look to be bangers as well. company is debt free, their order books are stacked. strangely enough my first interview was with the guy whose job I am replacing. he is pulling away from the company to spend more time with family and I totally respect the move. they've been searching for about six months to find the right candidate. not a red flag btw, interviewed with both the GM and COO they've just been very metered about who they want in this seat

22% raise over what I make now + three days in/two at home. likely no move required but it does add a 35-45 min commute on the days in office
they were all wearing masks as is required in our county right now- as a litmus test this really does seem to be "we're not fuckheads" energy so good for them

option 2 is going to require a move, more work, but the potential to ride a wave with a company that manufactures energy storage materials. again being vague for the sake of the process here. this is through a recruiting agency and would require an immediate move to be closer to their home office and their manufacturing facility. final interview coming next week, contract to hire. absolutely no revenue to speak of yet, they are following a huge investment in the billion dollar range and are scaling up really fast.

almost 30% raise on this pick from what my contracted rate would be and working with some really, really smart people. I enjoyed speaking with the guy I interviewed with and he seemed to be enthusiastic about getting more in-house help

long term, and more mature option is one obv but the second option has a lot of room to grow + new place to live (in state)

Corla Plankun
May 8, 2007

improve the lives of everyone


DS/ML feels like a super big bubble to me so I got away from putting it on my resume. its only a matter of time before business people figure out you can ask an intern to clone DS repos to mmuch the same result

Cybernetic Vermin
Apr 18, 2005



Corla Plankun posted:

DS/ML feels like a super big bubble to me so I got away from putting it on my resume. its only a matter of time before business people figure out you can ask an intern to clone DS repos to mmuch the same result

otoh one would have thought so about a lot of computer touching things you can now get paid all the money in the world for

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






aeflux if it doesn’t smell like they’ll run dry in 2-3 years, it sounds like option 2 is quite solid, as you seemingly are undeterred by the move

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






Corla Plankun posted:

DS/ML feels like a super big bubble to me so I got away from putting it on my resume. its only a matter of time before business people figure out you can ask an intern to clone DS repos to mmuch the same result

it’s probably slightly past peak now, but we’re not there yet for properly quantifying ds contributions to business, unless it’s the kind of situation where ds team is the product team. when that happens, corporate is going to really optimise the nicer non-phd jobs out of space, and some that is already visible as is - field is rapidly specialising and ive actually not had many “pure ds” offers recently. though part of the reason there is that im decent at data engineering, for a data scientist, and there’s a genuinely catastrophic deficit or data engineers on the market - in particular because each year you append a 0 to your data size, but also in part that we’re now in peak primadonna territory with data scientists, and you have a lot people getting 120k/year ds folks who can’t tell a difference between an ansi and a utf-8 text file

another gaping hole is data science management, because the average data scientist can be (this is a hyperbole) described as a math nerd with no other hobbies or interests. therefore all they end up doing is code for 8 hours at work and then do some kaggle at home and, 5 years later, can’t say 3 sentences in front of a room of people or explain what does the company need a finance department for. the couple ds who make it into management have 50% Chance of being complete psychos who think that it’s normal to expect fresh hires to have e.g. a solid open source portfolio or a track record or kaggle performances + blog and peer-reviewed publications on top of their phd and 0-3 years of job history

my most ludicrous job offer ever came when i had 2.5 years of ds experience - 1 normal + 1.5 teamlead at a known in the niche company. a c-level title in africa, paid in 6 figgies + coastal mansion with maids and kalashnikov-armed guard perimeter

hot dog event
Apr 17, 2002



cinci zoo sniper posted:

aeflux if it doesn’t smell like they’ll run dry in 2-3 years, it sounds like option 2 is quite solid, as you seemingly are undeterred by the move

i honestly don't think they're going to go in a direction that would affect my job in a reasonable timeline, hesitant to give out any more specific information about the company but the figgies are extremely there

i am two years away from paying off this house and being completely debt free. moving would require, well, a move but the opportunity seems to be greater there and would push the timeline out slightly. maybe shake my life up in a better way

believe me things will change at that moment, i want it to be as soon as possible and have worked now for almost two and a half years dumping money into this place to get it paid off and yes before the "yOu cOuLd hAvE mAdE mOrE iN tHe mArKeT" types come in fully aware of that fact

hot dog event
Apr 17, 2002



i haven't kept track of how many zoom interviews i've done but i swear the more you do the easier it gets. not easy in like a cocky way, this is tough to describe but it becomes smoother? like the ability to sniff out things that don't sit right gets better, whereas i was all nerves on my first few

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

drat, sounds like youre a human being endowed w a brain that learns poo poo

yes, you get better at poo poo as you get more reps in. you can even learn how to whack the anxiety

hot dog event
Apr 17, 2002



the place i'm at now is falling apart, we've had three high-profile leadership departures in the past six weeks. revenue is flat, forecast outlook is dismal, material + freight costs are way higher and we can't push the full costs along. our remaining management seems intent on playing the same song as this ship takes on more water

i'm glad to be interviewing and now is the time

Captain Foo
May 11, 2004

we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'


bob dobbs is dead posted:

drat, sounds like youre a human being endowed w a brain

let's not go too far now

TheFluff
Dec 13, 2006

FRIENDS, LISTEN TO ME
I AM A SEAGULL
OF WEALTH AND TASTE


cinci zoo sniper posted:

non-manga silicon valley with bulk of employees scattered throughout us, with my team being just a few people in europe - which i do find if not problematic, but at least unsettling

speaking as someone in sweden with most of the rest of my team on the us west coast, this isn't a particularly fun situation. communication is hard and i get to sit in a bunch of evening meetings. it works for me because i have no family commitments and i'm sort of a night owl anyway, but the communications part is really sort of a pain in the rear end. on the plus side i get a lot of completely undisturbed time during the day where i can gently caress around as much as i want, though. still, in the grand scheme of things this isn't ideal.

also, idk if this is just my company but american office politics are loving weird coming from a swedish consensus culture background. it's not really bad at my company and my manager is great, but it's weirdly dysfunctional and siloed. still there's something to be said for getting paid more than ever for doing less actual work than ever, and apparently they're gonna promote me to senior this cycle too :v:

TheFluff fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jan 8, 2022

hot dog event
Apr 17, 2002



Captain Foo posted:

let's not go too far now

extremely agree on many levels

i have made a number of mistakes like not doing all of this sooner

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






aeflux posted:

i honestly don't think they're going to go in a direction that would affect my job in a reasonable timeline, hesitant to give out any more specific information about the company but the figgies are extremely there

i am two years away from paying off this house and being completely debt free. moving would require, well, a move but the opportunity seems to be greater there and would push the timeline out slightly. maybe shake my life up in a better way

believe me things will change at that moment, i want it to be as soon as possible and have worked now for almost two and a half years dumping money into this place to get it paid off and yes before the "yOu cOuLd hAvE mAdE mOrE iN tHe mArKeT" types come in fully aware of that fact

i respect getting your roof prioritised, that’s basically my plan with newjob - eat a bit of market inefficiency and secure a proper place with no ifs or buts attached. doubtfully a house, but apartments downtown aren’t too budget either wrt opportunity cost on market

also, it sounds like you have it quite together for going for the move job if that wins your heart. 2.5 years of mortgage shouldn’t be too difficult to refi or amortise via rent if that ever becomes a problem for no clear reason on the horizon

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Jan 9, 2022

Destroyenator
Dec 27, 2004

Don't ask me lady, I live in beer

even doing them from the interviewer side makes it way easier when you apply somewhere else. if you get the opportunity it’s worthwhile spending some time on it for your own experience

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






TheFluff posted:

speaking as someone in sweden with most of the rest of my team on the us west coast, this isn't a particularly fun situation. communication is hard and i get to sit in a bunch of evening meetings. it works for me because i have no family commitments and i'm sort of a night owl anyway, but the communications part is really sort of a pain in the rear end. on the plus side i get a lot of completely undisturbed time during the day where i can gently caress around as much as i want, though. still, in the grand scheme of things this isn't ideal.

also, idk if this is just my company but american office politics are loving weird coming from a swedish consensus culture background. it's not really bad at my company and my manager is great, but it's weirdly dysfunctional and siloed. still there's something to be said for getting paid more than ever for doing less actual work than ever, and apparently they're gonna promote me to senior this cycle too :v:

west coast sounds harsh, i would definitely hate being the only person online or facing a silent expectation of logging on in the evening. this place is >50% east coast and has been full remote since before rona, so it’s a bit of a lesser issue, but still on my mind - my daily “coworkers online” counter would be mostly at 2, and im that one loud guy who spends 2 hours a day at water cooler in a normal office job

also your office politics sound 1:1 like my old distributed russian job, and the big corpo latvian job before that - pretty sure this is generic anglo-kool aid educated management side effects at big corps

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Jan 9, 2022

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008


aeflux posted:

the place i'm at now is falling apart, we've had three high-profile leadership departures in the past six weeks. revenue is flat, forecast outlook is dismal, material + freight costs are way higher and we can't push the full costs along. our remaining management seems intent on playing the same song as this ship takes on more water

i'm glad to be interviewing and now is the time

ngl outside of the manufacturing-specific bits this sounds like every single tech company over the past 6-9 months

Plorkyeran
Mar 21, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed


i am mostly a fan of being 6-7 hours behind the rest of my team. there's a lot of downsides, but it ensures that my meetings are nicely clustered at the start of the day and then i usually don't have distractions from noon onward.

distortion park
Apr 25, 2011



Not vouching for the rest of the thread but I liked the way this post puts it

https://twitter.com/danluu/status/1470926861555290114?t=VSwnVBu4zMXZJBzXK-a-cQ&s=19

e: I don't even think it's irrational on the part of the hiring managers. you probably don't want to hire someone who isn't going to fit in with the expected culture, who can't or won't dissemble and take part in the productivity cult even when their internal self wants to rebel

distortion park fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jan 10, 2022

Corla Plankun
May 8, 2007

improve the lives of everyone


lol mr "didn't know what mvc was" thinks hes not getting tech jobs because he's too honest

edit to add: "I've never written production code that talks to a DB nor have I ever written production code that issues an RPC or calls an external API."

the real subject worth talking about here is how this man must have the most perfect resume on earth if he's getting interviews at facebook when it seems like he's essentially never written any code???

Corla Plankun fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jan 10, 2022

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

he was hardware dude for a long time

which im guessing entails some of the ol' hardware peeps turnin into software peeps pathologies

you get a lotta surprisingly good putertouchers out of peeps who get their rear end beat when they were 8 and dissociated by touchin puter. iirc jamie zawinski was that way, brett victor was that way w gettin his rear end beat in middle school, etc. luu doesnt seem to be an exception

but this kinda peep sucks balls at interviews because their relation to power and authority is cringing at the prospect of gettin their rear end beat

interviewing is a sales process: it always has some weird power dynamics stuff stuck in it

bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jan 10, 2022

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010


Corla Plankun posted:

lol mr "didn't know what mvc was" thinks hes not getting tech jobs because he's too honest

edit to add: "I've never written production code that talks to a DB nor have I ever written production code that issues an RPC or calls an external API."

the real subject worth talking about here is how this man must have the most perfect resume on earth if he's getting interviews at facebook when it seems like he's essentially never written any code???

i've never done those things either, because i work on tools that are further down the stack. the jdbc team and the jax-rs teams work on those features, mine is something else.

FMguru
Sep 10, 2003

peed on;
sexually

pointsofdata posted:

e: I don't even think it's irrational on the part of the hiring managers. you probably don't want to hire someone who isn't going to fit in with the expected culture, who can't or won't dissemble and take part in the productivity cult even when their internal self wants to rebel
a large portion of interviewing is determining whether the candidate is able to follow all the little unwritten bullshit rules about how to behave in an interview (because jobs are very much about following all the little bullshit rules about corporate behavior). so you put on nice clothes, show up 10 minutes early, have a portfolio with copies of your resume, shake everyone hand, give all the expected answers to the expected questions, demonstrate that youve done the bare minimum of research about the company, ask some solid follow up questions, and then send an email to the interviewers thanking them for their time and saying how excited you were to meet the team. none of that has any bearing on whether youll be any good at doing the core functions of your job, but they have everything to do with telling the hiring manager if youll smoothly fit into the corporate culture

the urge to answer questions like "so, what was it that attracted you to this position at PhlegmTech?" with "because its a loving paycheck, that's what" can be overpowering, but people need to realize that the purpose of the question is not to probe into your actual reasons for working at PhlegmTech but to weed out the people who think theyre too special, too above-it-all to brightly chirp about how excited they are about the possibiity of working on the Mucus3000 project

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

its sales

its just sales

qhat
Jul 6, 2015




If someone is making GBS threads on their current employer in the interview, that shows outward cynicism. Sorry but if I see that in an interview you are not getting hired no matter how bad your company is or how good your technical skills are. We all know companies suck, and that working for a company sucks, and that some companies are worse than other companies, sometimes much worse. Infact we already know your company sucks, that's why you are applying to our company, because you are hoping it is better. But, this is no excuse to get into the habit of going on and on about how much everything sucks at your current employer, because if you bring that poo poo to us it inevitably leads to a complete break down of team morale regardless of how minor the actual issues are.

If someone asks why you are leaving, you give them a human answer, an answer that is an analogue of "No complaints, I'm just open to the right opportunities and am excited about this one". This is the answer the hiring manager is always looking for, spare them the irrelevant antics of your current employer.

Plorkyeran
Mar 21, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed


Corla Plankun posted:

lol mr "didn't know what mvc was" thinks hes not getting tech jobs because he's too honest

edit to add: "I've never written production code that talks to a DB nor have I ever written production code that issues an RPC or calls an external API."

the real subject worth talking about here is how this man must have the most perfect resume on earth if he's getting interviews at facebook when it seems like he's essentially never written any code???

this might blow your mind but there's a lot of software dev that isn't just plumbing together services

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






i tend to honestly just say "im not satisfied with my current compensation growth options, and this looks like an interesting avenue to rectify that"

Asymmetric POSTer
Aug 17, 2005



Plorkyeran posted:

this might blow your mind but there's a lot of software dev that isn't just plumbing together services

data sewage treatment?

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cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






Asymmetric POSTer posted:

data sewage treatment?

you're just shuffling some letters around

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