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champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER


FMguru posted:

a large portion of interviewing is determining whether the candidate is able to follow all the little unwritten bullshit rules about how to behave in an interview (because jobs are very much about following all the little bullshit rules about corporate behavior). so you put on nice clothes, show up 10 minutes early, have a portfolio with copies of your resume, shake everyone hand, give all the expected answers to the expected questions, demonstrate that youve done the bare minimum of research about the company, ask some solid follow up questions, and then send an email to the interviewers thanking them for their time and saying how excited you were to meet the team. none of that has any bearing on whether youll be any good at doing the core functions of your job, but they have everything to do with telling the hiring manager if youll smoothly fit into the corporate culture

the urge to answer questions like "so, what was it that attracted you to this position at PhlegmTech?" with "because its a loving paycheck, that's what" can be overpowering, but people need to realize that the purpose of the question is not to probe into your actual reasons for working at PhlegmTech but to weed out the people who think theyre too special, too above-it-all to brightly chirp about how excited they are about the possibiity of working on the Mucus3000 project

This is one of the many reasons I turned to freelance/consulting/computer mercenary work. When people ask "why do you want to take this contract?" the answer is always "I want to take as much of your money as I possibly can" and hiring managers or whomever just go "oh yeah of course mr mercenary how silly of me" then sign the contract

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Fart Sandwiches
Apr 3, 2006

i never asked for this


Just had my interview. One of the guys didn't bother showing because he interviewed me at a different company for a different role 4 years ago and said I was good lmao. Two minutes after the interview I got an email saying they are moving forward with me and we set up a time to discuss salary and start date.

Leverage your network if you have it, folks.

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004





cinci zoo sniper posted:

i tend to honestly just say "im not satisfied with my current compensation growth options, and this looks like an interesting avenue to rectify that"

yeah, same. i wouldn't say anything bad about the company, but "i wanted more money" or "there wasn't room for growth/advancement as an IC" or whatever is fine. "it's a shithole" or "the people were jerks" or "management sucked" is of course not fine. specific things especially as relate to organizational maturity ("i want something more stable", "i need to tone down my on-call schedule and that wasn't possible", etc) seem ok to me and don't raise any red flags

qhat
Jul 6, 2015




Achmed Jones posted:

yeah, same. i wouldn't say anything bad about the company, but "i wanted more money" or "there wasn't room for growth/advancement as an IC" or whatever is fine. "it's a shithole" or "the people were jerks" or "management sucked" is of course not fine. specific things especially as relate to organizational maturity ("i want something more stable", "i need to tone down my on-call schedule and that wasn't possible", etc) seem ok to me and don't raise any red flags

yeah like actual specific things that are just a product of the role you have that by definition aren't really fixable, nothing that can be immediately followed up with "what did you do to attempt to fix the problems?" which is almost always a rhetorical question.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015




like I would still be super careful about what you say even if it seems innocent. like too much on-call can come across like you weren't writing stable enough systems, or saying you want more comp is kind of like advertising that you're desperate and will take any role, or lack of growth paths sounding like you weren't really indispensable, etc. it doesn't really matter if none of these things are true, the point is now the hiring manager is thinking about it, why not just make it easy on yourself and give them an enthusiastic vibe about the role you are applying for? any concerns you have about the role being the same can be asked independently without referencing your current position, why give the other company ammunition to take pause?

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004





all good points

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






how receptive are american tech companies to counter-offer requests? imagine that their initially offer was an arbitrary number above my asking compensation, and im inviting them to beat a competing offer in the same ballpark by 5%

qhat
Jul 6, 2015




Receptive up to around 10%, unless it's a big role and the counter-offer is a main competitor, then it can be anything.

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






qhat posted:

Receptive up to around 10%, unless it's a big role and the counter-offer is a main competitor, then it can be anything.

interesting, that would fall short the optimum - but still workable. shot fired anyway, ill likely see where it lands tomorrow already

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:



cinci zoo sniper posted:

how receptive are american tech companies to counter-offer requests? imagine that their initially offer was an arbitrary number above my asking compensation, and im inviting them to beat a competing offer in the same ballpark by 5%

any place worth working for will be very receptive to it. if they give you a hard time then i can guarantee you didn't want to work there anyways

Perplx
Jun 26, 2004


Best viewed on Orgasma Plasma

Lipstick Apathy

qhat posted:

Receptive up to around 10%, unless it's a big role and the counter-offer is a main competitor, then it can be anything.

i've been worrying that I could have got an extra 10% since I didn't counter offer, but I also confidently said I would need a a very compelling offer because my job is very cushy (didn't know I meant workload not pay), but I was just ecstatic to break six figgies and they said it was above market and not to tell any one (obviously). I also asked for a 10% signing bonus and got it.

I see 3 salaries for my title at the same office on glassdoor, the first was 30k more than me (which seemed insanely high), the 2nd was the same and 3rd was 10k less.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015




The result of the negotiation doesn't have to be the highest possible figure they would be willing to give you, it has to be a figure you'd be comfortable with. Generally you can always ask for more than the initial offer, though if you think you have to ask for over 10% more than they offered you in order to feel comfortable, and you don't have serious leverage with them, you should be thinking about walking away. You can still ask but I think generally they will either say no or they will talk you down, YMMV. That's my rule of thumb, anyway.

Perplx
Jun 26, 2004


Best viewed on Orgasma Plasma

Lipstick Apathy

i am happy with it, it’s a 60% bump from the last job, I would be happy with the same pay just to get away from my current job

Trimson Grondag 3
Jul 1, 2007



Clapping Larry

always worth negotiating up because the more you get paid, the more highly people will regard your work even if it’s the same quality as you’d produce for less money. it’s the consulting effect.

RokosCockatrice
Feb 19, 2004

I have a lot of points to make and I will make them later.


Perplx posted:

i am happy with it, it’s a 60% bump from the last job, I would be happy with the same pay just to get away from my current job

congrats!

nothing feels better than jumping ship and getting a 'yes I'm definitely comfortable with that' number for your troubles.

Arcsech
Aug 5, 2008


Perplx posted:

i am happy with it, it’s a 60% bump from the last job, I would be happy with the same pay just to get away from my current job

I was in that boat. got offered a big raise (I forget the exact % but comparable) over oldbadjob for newgreatjob. asked for like 12% more, got offered like 5% more and a starting bonus. literally always ask for more money, as long as you’re reasonable and don’t push it, nobody will drop you over it unless they’ve told you it’s a final offer and even then only if they’re dicks. they worst they’ll say is no, and they’ll probably say say something kinda like yes.

even if you’d be happy with the offer… would you rather your company have an extra $5k/yr, or you? even if it’ll already be more money than you know what to do with, would you rather your company had an extra $5k/yr, or your favorite charity?

jemand
Sep 18, 2018



bob dobbs is dead posted:

he was hardware dude for a long time

which im guessing entails some of the ol' hardware peeps turnin into software peeps pathologies

you get a lotta surprisingly good putertouchers out of peeps who get their rear end beat when they were 8 and dissociated by touchin puter. iirc jamie zawinski was that way, brett victor was that way w gettin his rear end beat in middle school, etc. luu doesnt seem to be an exception

but this kinda peep sucks balls at interviews because their relation to power and authority is cringing at the prospect of gettin their rear end beat

interviewing is a sales process: it always has some weird power dynamics stuff stuck in it

yeah, sounds like it's this.

I've read luu's blog for awhile, but hadn't really checked out his twitter. Since it showed up here, I was reading some of his recent threads His childhood does not sound like it was anywhere close to good.

In a follow up to the posted thread he mentioned that a couple of his friends weighed in on his bad interviews issue by mentioning unspecified mannerisms he has, traced to his background, which are terrible for passing interviews.

I generally like his writing and find it quite insightful, but he does seem to have some weird takes on organizational dynamics & power. Surprisingly even on those topics he's usually quite interesting for stuff that he has explicitly worked out and examined, but the stuff that comes through implicitly in framing, etc is where there are gaps.

ultravoices
May 10, 2004

You are about to embark on a great journey. Are you ready, my friend?


jemand posted:


In a follow up to the posted thread he mentioned that a couple of his friends weighed in on his bad interviews issue by mentioning unspecified mannerisms he has, traced to his background, which are terrible for passing interviews.


does he howl AWOOOOOGA and his eyes comically bug out whenever he sees a pretty lady?

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015


FMguru posted:

a large portion of interviewing is determining whether the candidate is able to follow all the little unwritten bullshit rules about how to behave in an interview (because jobs are very much about following all the little bullshit rules about corporate behavior). so you put on nice clothes, show up 10 minutes early, have a portfolio with copies of your resume, shake everyone hand, give all the expected answers to the expected questions, demonstrate that youve done the bare minimum of research about the company, ask some solid follow up questions, and then send an email to the interviewers thanking them for their time and saying how excited you were to meet the team. none of that has any bearing on whether youll be any good at doing the core functions of your job, but they have everything to do with telling the hiring manager if youll smoothly fit into the corporate culture

I've literally never done this, networking ftw

Xarn
Jun 26, 2015


Corla Plankun posted:

lol mr "didn't know what mvc was" thinks hes not getting tech jobs because he's too honest

edit to add: "I've never written production code that talks to a DB nor have I ever written production code that issues an RPC or calls an external API."

Yeah, I haven't done any of these either, turns out people who write the computational core are also needed :shrug:

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008


lol mr "didn't know what cache coherency was" thinks hes not getting tech jobs because he's too honest

edit to add: "I've never taped out an out of order superscalar processor nor have I ever debugged a hardware issue that resulted in a recall."

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008


i dont actually know what any of those words means because I just shuffle rpcs around very carefully, but you know

Kernel Sanders
Sep 15, 2020


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDbvVFffWV4

my linkedin inbox

Flaming June
Oct 21, 2004



just got an offer today at a startup that i'm only somewhat enthusiastic about. the project and team are okay, and the compensation is better than what i'm makng now, but nothing really groundbreaking. it's also completely remote with no real opportunity for in-office work since its on the other coast (i actually prefer a dedicated office space)

i was supposed to have a second offer today at a larger public company, but they are now reprioritizing and are unsure if the position will even exist once that is decided. they are far more well-known and their verbal offer (before this meeting) was higher than the startup's, with a more relevant project and a better match for a team. they were my #1 choice

startup needs an offer by eod friday. public company doesn't expect to even know if they are still hiring for the position for a week or two yet

i guess i could take the startup offer and, if public company gets back with an even better one, just jump on that instead and burn some bridges if it comes to it. if public company had to wait to hire (but they were definitely going to hire) then i wouldn't mind pushing off a start date, but i don't even know if there will be an offer now

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

just tell the startup about the waitin on other offer sitch and see if theyll delay 2 weeks

if theyre sociopaths this will raise up the ol' sociopath hackles as they start doin shady poo poo at this point. if they're deec peeps they'll just give in or give an actually good reason why they cant wait for your decision (which is drat rare)

Flaming June
Oct 21, 2004



they won't. already talked to them about it and they need a decision by friday

cinci zoo sniper
Mar 14, 2013






imo take the job and then quit it if you must, waiting for a reprioritisation right now could mean anything from 2 days to after they’re steadily into the next fiscal year

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps

Nap Ghost

cinci zoo sniper posted:

imo take the job and then quit it if you must, waiting for a reprioritisation right now could mean anything from 2 days to after they’re steadily into the next fiscal year

yeah this is a factor, i guess

startupland is a gently caress yeah or no sitch in most cases imo, best of luck on your ambivalent job

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

Flaming June posted:

they won't. already talked to them about it and they need a decision by friday

Well at least now you know what to tell them if you do end up taking the other job.

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:



Flaming June posted:

they won't. already talked to them about it and they need a decision by friday

so give them the decision they want and just quit if the other company gives you a better offer. you can't say you didn't warn them and give them a chance

qhat
Jul 6, 2015




cinci zoo sniper posted:

imo take the job and then quit it if you must, waiting for a reprioritisation right now could mean anything from 2 days to after they’re steadily into the next fiscal year

do this. it's not your fault, they screwed themselves by demanding you give a quick answer.

my homie dhall
Dec 9, 2010

honey, oh please, it's just a machine


Flaming June posted:

just got an offer today at a startup that i'm only somewhat enthusiastic about. the project and team are okay, and the compensation is better than what i'm makng now, but nothing really groundbreaking. it's also completely remote with no real opportunity for in-office work since its on the other coast (i actually prefer a dedicated office space)

i was supposed to have a second offer today at a larger public company, but they are now reprioritizing and are unsure if the position will even exist once that is decided. they are far more well-known and their verbal offer (before this meeting) was higher than the startup's, with a more relevant project and a better match for a team. they were my #1 choice

startup needs an offer by eod friday. public company doesn't expect to even know if they are still hiring for the position for a week or two yet

i guess i could take the startup offer and, if public company gets back with an even better one, just jump on that instead and burn some bridges if it comes to it. if public company had to wait to hire (but they were definitely going to hire) then i wouldn't mind pushing off a start date, but i don't even know if there will be an offer now

imo do not take a job that is not offering you a single thing you are actually excited about, especially in this market. new job is (or has been for me) the quickest way to get way more money, role bump, or a better location and you only get a handful of new job in your life, so I would make them count.

Flaming June
Oct 21, 2004



it's about a 25% bump in pay, which isn't nothing. it's just that everything else about it is about the same or slightly worse

i'm leaning towards taking it anyway. i'm just a bit in the dumps about what happened to the other potential offer, i guess :smith:

qhat
Jul 6, 2015




the alternative is also to just say no and keep looking. 25% is nice but I could easily turn that down if the role wasn’t something I saw myself succeeding in or liking

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:



eh i think it depends on where you are on the figgie scale. if you're really early in your career then you should probably be expecting a 50% raise at a minimum and honestly not getting that probably means you broke the cardinal rule of 'never say a loving number, jfc'. however a 25% raise is still pretty significant and you may want to take it and resume your search immediately, looking for another 25% or more jump.

once you're mid career the percentages are going to come down and 25% is going to be more reasonable. at this point you should be focusing more on what the long term impacts on your career the gig will have along with your individual happiness. you *should* have a good (good enough) idea of the general direction you want to take your career along with what kind of jobs are cushy to you vs. which are kryptonite. also at this point you should have already secured a couple of 30-50% jumps in comp so money is way less of an issue for you

by the time you hit mid to late career you're not going to see large bumps in comp unless you really sucked at negotiating your previous hops or are jumping over to management. at this point you should also be pretty drat comfy with the job you're doing because you've gotten so much better at picking and choosing gigs, and ALSO pretty comfy irt figgies and are in the point where marginal increases in comp don't even register on your radar. for anyone to get your attention they have to wave something that's very obviously compelling either in terms of job satisfaction, work-life balance, or compensation

in my case i consider 25% the absolute floor for them to even get my attention, and from that point they better have my dream job lined up or i'm hanging up. they'd have to offer something like 50% or more for me to consider a 'lateral' move or 100% for me to go back to the old lifestyle i was living in my 20s

Fart Sandwiches
Apr 3, 2006

i never asked for this


I got my offer after negotiating. 9% bump and a signing bonus. I didn’t get senior in my title but I’m ok with that because within 6 months I’ll be eligible and that will be a nice promotion and raise pretty quick. I start the 31st! I’m telling my boss tomorrow but my team already knows

Kernel Sanders
Sep 15, 2020


is “full stack developer” still a click baity crooter magnet of a title on LinkedIn or does that reveal I’m a boomer?

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008



Kernel Sanders posted:

is “full stack developer” still a click baity crooter magnet of a title on LinkedIn or does that reveal I’m a boomer?

it means back end developer with an attitude

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004





i still see it but not near as much as i used to. but i also don't do web dev any more so 🤷‍♀️

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KidDynamite
Feb 11, 2005



was asking the dev interviewing me questions at the end of a tech screen "... so how does company x do that?" "i don't know how many other interviews you're on but this is for company y"

loving woof. i got both questions correct so if i don't get it going to say it's entirely on that.

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