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Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
is it better to start with k8s and deploy something that is literally used to manage google's millions of servers when you have 1 server and 0 users or do you migrate to it painfully later on

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FamDav
Mar 29, 2008

freeasinbeer posted:

Donít disagree that this is major issue with k8s, the devs basically code to a pretty far departure of what traditional sysadmins are comfortable with. But to me fighting it to fit your legacy network design is a fools errand. Iíve also gotten in some pretty nasty fights with this in the grey forums, but I tend to agree with the vision that k8s has set forth for designs and think that maybe legacy design patterns need a shake up.

FWIW I brought it up to refute the FUD that docker isnít used in production(it has warts but there not that bad) and to shed light on the fact that operations folks are trying new things all the time as well, to try and make their lives easier. Docker is one of them.

people are running containers in production happily; they arenít running docker in production with the same kind of joy. docker has encouraged a culture of never upgrading past a version that has been stable for you because who knows what theyíve broken in the intervening time. the company just canít wrap its head around the fact that backwards compatability and stability are what the paying customers want. ipv6 is more or less broke with recent versions of docker, and apparently exec (and especially docker health checks since theyíre just repeated execs) will lock up docker and make it completely unresponsive.

docker will stick around as the dev tool of choice and weíll continue to see it in build farms for a long time. docker in production is heading out the door within the next few years.

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008

Sapozhnik posted:

is it better to start with k8s and deploy something that is literally used to manage google's millions of servers when you have 1 server and 0 users or do you migrate to it painfully later on

(borg is not k8s, btw)

containers are becoming a new deployment layer, so soon rather than later your 1 server will just be your 1 application container running on some cloud provider. eventually weíll even see VPSí running super oversubscribed container platforms for deploying Wordpress and poo poo.

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008

Sapozhnik posted:

quarter mil household income

thereís quite a few people in yospos who bring home 250-500k tho

the best part is Pollyanna has already been given most of the advice you need to get there.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
*walking past long-term unemployed homeless person* MY MAN, HAVE YOU HEARD THE GOOD WORD ABOUT VANGUARD ETFS????

The MUMPSorceress
Jan 6, 2012


^SHTPSTS

Gary’s Answer

Sapozhnik posted:

*walking past long-term unemployed homeless person* MY MAN, HAVE YOU HEARD THE GOOD WORD ABOUT VANGUARD ETFS????

Lmao. This reminds me I need to move my epic 401k into vanguard tho

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Pollyanna posted:

caveat to this, if it's a piece of tech you never want to work with again, don't

caring too much about technology nerd bullshit is a good way to curtail your career growth

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

Sapozhnik posted:

is it better to start with k8s and deploy something that is literally used to manage google's millions of servers when you have 1 server and 0 users or do you migrate to it painfully later on

if changing the deployment environment for your greenfield application is painful or difficult, you have much bigger problems than containerization

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

FamDav posted:

people are running containers in production happily; they arenít running docker in production with the same kind of joy. docker has encouraged a culture of never upgrading past a version that has been stable for you because who knows what theyíve broken in the intervening time. the company just canít wrap its head around the fact that backwards compatability and stability are what the paying customers want. ipv6 is more or less broke with recent versions of docker, and apparently exec (and especially docker health checks since theyíre just repeated execs) will lock up docker and make it completely unresponsive.

docker will stick around as the dev tool of choice and weíll continue to see it in build farms for a long time. docker in production is heading out the door within the next few years.

docker the vendor is turbo-hosed. they are vc-funded, have no route to profitability, and no one wants their software because they understand absolutely nothing about enterprise use cases

containers are here to stay; docker, inc is not.

Sapozhnik
Jan 2, 2005

Nap Ghost
i'm going to lol and lol when docker inc goes under and takes the central docker repository with it and the entire loving internet breaks

though i guess the likeliest outcome is that github somehow takes that repository over

in a well actually
Jan 26, 2011

dude, you gotta end it on the rhyme

Sapozhnik posted:

though i guess the likeliest outcome is that npm somehow takes that repository over

Blinkz0rz
May 27, 2001

MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

Mao Zedong Thot posted:

even worse: kubernetes isn't really that complicated (theres like a grand total of 4 major pieces you need to setup) but when you start with some magic push button poo poo, it absolutely turns into a set of whirling blades that you haven't thought about, and that will eventually in fact cut you in prod

nope it really isn't but lol if they actually tell you what's required anywhere near the front page of their docs

it's this increasing trend of "easy mode" in tech where the reality is that the easiest thing is for pms and execs to be like "let's use this tech no one has ever used before what could possibly go wrong"

running kubernetes in production at scale requires provisioning and operating an etcd cluster, a set of master nodes and a set of worker nodes all with a discrete set of configs.

actually doing it right involves, in our case, a bunch of work to build a golden image for both flavors of kubernetes and etcd, building out some automation to bootstrap an etcd cluster, automating installation and provisioning of something like heptio authenticator, building out cluster rbac, and configuring kube2iam. on top of that there's building out infrastructure and making sure it plays nice with the clusters. then there's monitoring, understanding the performance profile of the clusters, logging, auditing, abstracting and automating kubectl operations, and, i'm sure, plenty of other things i'm not thinking of.

i haven't had to do it yet because i left our platform engineering team because lol gently caress that

TimWinter
Mar 30, 2015

https://timsthebomb.com
Hey can someone recommend me any one of the many container solutions that exist as a viable alternative to docker? I don't want to derail the thread so I'm asking for literally one example here.

Notorious b.s.d.
Jan 25, 2003

by Reene

TimWinter posted:

Hey can someone recommend me any one of the many container solutions that exist as a viable alternative to docker? I don't want to derail the thread so I'm asking for literally one example here.

so all of the "solutions" are built on the same features built into the kernel: selinux, lxc, and process namespaces. the various tools are just daemons that expose an API to set up and tear down containers, so that you don't have to write your own scripts to frob /proc and poo poo

there is an "standard" for that API, which looks a lot like the docker API, called OCI. the major vendor backing OCI is red hat.

coincidentally, red hat recently reached a deal to purchase the software vendor responsible for rkt, the only meaningful competitor to docker, who happens to conform to the oci standard for the api

https://github.com/rkt/rkt

Mao Zedong Thot
Oct 16, 2008


rkt is the only real competitor and no one uses it, everyone will use it "soon" though because docker is awful

still, it's dumb to ignore containerization even if docker is the current sole viable player

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008

TimWinter posted:

Hey can someone recommend me any one of the many container solutions that exist as a viable alternative to docker? I don't want to derail the thread so I'm asking for literally one example here.

so others have mentioned rkt (though imo i see it petering out), or with k8s they have cri-o available in beta that can target runc and clear containers. the reality is that you should probably be running docker in production because nothing else has been as rigorously tested up to this point.

its not so much that docker has bugs that's the problem, because everything has bugs and people generally only complain about them because they're actively using something. the reason most people are tired of docker is because of their stewardship, and how the runtime itself has become such a commodity that nobody wants a lot the stuff that docker has had shoved into it.

FamDav
Mar 29, 2008
also all your containers are going to start running in microvm's sooner or later so get loving in

Progressive JPEG
Feb 19, 2003

TimWinter posted:

Hey can someone recommend me any one of the many container solutions that exist as a viable alternative to docker? I don't want to derail the thread so I'm asking for literally one example here.

as of a year or two ago, mesos supports downloading and launching docker-format images while completely bypassing dockerd to actually run them

basically gives you a convenient format for passing around images without involving the shitshow which is dockerd (as hinted at earlier)

TerminalRaptor
Nov 6, 2012

Mostly Harmless
interview on friday went pretty well I thought, but I'm also pretty confident it's a no for me if they want to move forward.

whiteboarding was definitely different compared to the larger orgs I've interviewed at. It was mostly a high level design session and was actually enjoyable once I understood what we were designing. that being said it's probably too small of a shop for me based on what I'm used to. I'd have a ton of responsibility, and given my current situation, I'd like to have a slight reprieve from that for a little while. that being said it, sounds like they have a lot of potential if they can successfully execute.

there were a few red flags I saw as well. the minor stuff was the interview was downtown and they didn't offer to validate my parking. I was also supposed to meet with the owner as part of the interview schedule I was given, they were on vacation, and I was never given an updated schedule(talking with my buddy who works there it was known this individual was going to be out). I won't share the technical red flags. the senior dev I talked to was a really cool guy though. the pay would be obscenely better than what I'm getting now too, but I don't think it would be worth the other stress (not that I don't have bad stress right now).

Workaday Wizard
Oct 23, 2009

by Pragmatica

TerminalRaptor posted:

interview on friday went pretty well I thought, but I'm also pretty confident it's a no for me if they want to move forward.

whiteboarding was definitely different compared to the larger orgs I've interviewed at. It was mostly a high level design session and was actually enjoyable once I understood what we were designing. that being said it's probably too small of a shop for me based on what I'm used to. I'd have a ton of responsibility, and given my current situation, I'd like to have a slight reprieve from that for a little while. that being said it, sounds like they have a lot of potential if they can successfully execute.

there were a few red flags I saw as well. the minor stuff was the interview was downtown and they didn't offer to validate my parking. I was also supposed to meet with the owner as part of the interview schedule I was given, they were on vacation, and I was never given an updated schedule(talking with my buddy who works there it was known this individual was going to be out). I won't share the technical red flags. the senior dev I talked to was a really cool guy though. the pay would be obscenely better than what I'm getting now too, but I don't think it would be worth the other stress (not that I don't have bad stress right now).

maybe itís because iím detached from your situation but your nontechnical red flags donít look like red flags to me.

parking validation? never seen a place that does that. you will get the employee parking later so it doesnít matter.

meeting the owner? are you a business partner, an investor, or a potential c level? no? then why do you expect to meet them even if they were free and bored.

the guy was on vacation? it happens. unless they are a process heavy company they probably didnít notice/care that the guy was on leave.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


CEOs are often out of office for significant periods of time. Not meeting them doesn't sound that bad.

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER


qhat posted:

CEOs are often out of office for significant periods of time. Not meeting them doesn't sound that bad.

it is if youíre supposed to be meeting them

Shaman Linavi
Apr 3, 2012

i think my best interviewer gone missing experience was when i was scheduled for a phone screen early in the morning and they didn't end up calling until around 6:30PM while they were stuck in traffic after leaving the office

wasn't too upset about not hearing back from that one

TerminalRaptor
Nov 6, 2012

Mostly Harmless
The parking thing seemed odd to me since I've had an interview where I''ve been flown out, given a rental car and hotel.

The missed contact wouldn't bother me, but I was mailed an itinerary earlier in the week with a time schedule on it.

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


Kudaros posted:

I finished my first week at my new job. Compared to grad school I feel way more sure of myself, more competent, etc. I realize it's the first week but I feel like the popular saying of "they expect results in industry" is exactly backwards. I also had some pretty aggressive advisers though.

It's weird to come home and not think about work in a way that stresses me out. I still can't stop thinking about work, but I'm not dreading it. People skills and the technical skill to back it up go a long way in this environment. 80% of data science in this role is making c-levels feel safe and comfortable. They gave me my own office which is nice too. And I don't really worry about money anymore. It's a surreal experience going from crackhouse to office.

I was not prepared for two things however: many these people have the straightest, cleanest, whitest teeth I've ever seen in my life, and they actually engage in small talk like "got any big plans this weekend?"

I thought that was just a joke about office culture.

Hey dude congrats on the new job. I can't say I have looked at people's teeth here at my new job too much, but I have to say that feeling of coming home not thinking about work in a stressful way is resonating with me in a big way. I have been working since the beginning of March and already I feel I have achieved more in half a month than I did during the last 6 months at my previous job, which was a kind of corporate hell slog where nothing ever happened and I always felt I was the rude guest who has badly overstayed the welcome.

Work at robotics startup is kind of a mixed bag, I have spent most of the time so far setting up Gitlab on a Windows server just to have a place to collaborate and commit code to that is not a random folder somewhere. Most of all it just feels nice to be useful and especially at a company that does something more involved than a fart app.

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


my new job is actually pretty great tho. itís clear what Iím working on, itís clear that my skills are needed, itís clear that they are interested in building up their engineers (out of necessity mostly). the company is stable and profitable and has been for years, is on the up and up, has a pretty good reputation, serves a lot of much bigger names, is b2b-focused. the office is pretty large (2~3 floors of an entire building), well stocked, the people are decently cool. im hopeful that it will be a good experience for at least a few years

pity about the commute but Adventure Zone is keeping me company

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


that said it is hard to trust a company not to randomly kick your rear end to the curb cuz thereís a lot of ways that can happen so Iím not resting

4lokos basilisk
Jul 17, 2008


Pollyanna posted:

that said it is hard to trust a company not to randomly kick your rear end to the curb cuz thereís a lot of ways that can happen so Iím not resting

based on your previous post it sounds like a really nice place to work at so it seems you are entitled to at least some time on the laurels though :)

Pollyanna
Mar 5, 2005

Milk's on them.


thx :)

I just want the time to apartment hunt aaaaa

huhu
Feb 24, 2006

quote:

Good Morning Justin,
That's not my name.

Symbolic Butt
Mar 22, 2009

(_!_)
Buglord

Kudaros posted:

I finished my first week at my new job. Compared to grad school I feel way more sure of myself, more competent, etc. I realize it's the first week but I feel like the popular saying of "they expect results in industry" is exactly backwards. I also had some pretty aggressive advisers though.

I had the same experience when I gave up my math career

basically reaganism is cancer, gently caress the ghostbusters

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



after grad school my incidence of migraines went from 3 or 4 a month to 1 or 2 a year. i didnít feel particularly stressed at the time, but i had a kid about a year and a half after graduating and migraines are still rare for me so yeah i blame academia

Valeyard
Mar 30, 2012


Grimey Drawer
gently caress academia

I've not been stressed anywhere near as much in current job as when I was even doing my undergrad

champagne posting
Apr 5, 2006

YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER


Valeyard posted:

gently caress academia

I've not been stressed anywhere near as much in current job as when I was even doing my undergrad

:yossame:

Doom Mathematic
Sep 2, 2008

huhu posted:

That's not my name.

James.

Kudaros
Jun 23, 2006
I still find myself wanting to study different subjects though. I think the only life that is possible in is full communism or independent wealth. Academia will give neither. At least my job is a pretty natural extension of the work done under my phd.

Workaday Wizard
Oct 23, 2009

by Pragmatica

Valeyard posted:

gently caress academia

I've not been stressed anywhere near as much in current job as when I was even doing my undergrad

the biggest problem in academia is that the students are still children who didnít learn how to manage their time. most of them donít even have a calendar.

TerminalRaptor
Nov 6, 2012

Mostly Harmless

Valeyard posted:

gently caress academia

I've not been stressed anywhere near as much in current job as when I was even doing my undergrad

It's amazing how stressed I was able to get myself in undergrad. In retrospect it was silly, but at the time it felt like the world was ending. I wished I had goofed off more during college.

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016


:cheers:


Valeyard posted:

gently caress academia

I've not been stressed anywhere near as much in current job as when I was even doing my undergrad

n-thing same. a lot of my friends have commented on how much more relaxed i seem nowadays compared to school 6+ years ago. itís entirely because my most demanding and stressful projects havenít even approached half of what my engineering degree did to me.

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FamDav
Mar 29, 2008

TerminalRaptor posted:

It's amazing how stressed I was able to get myself in undergrad. In retrospect it was silly, but at the time it felt like the world was ending. I wished I had goofed off more during college.

depending on your college, workloads have also increased over the past decade. some of it is the classes, and some is the escalating need for differentiating activities/credentials in this hosed up capitalist hellscape.

my college (after I left) had to tell professors to chill the gently caress out on their workload after a string of suicides/attempts in one semester :(.

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