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PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:

echinopsis posted:

whatís nice about that is that when I was working as a locum I wasnít doing those things to try to get a job, but just treating fellow employees with respect and being myself with customers, and that it turns out it was quite impressive

funny how that works out

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akadajet
Sep 14, 2003

current interviewing status: 9AM guy didn't show up to the teams meeting. Looked him up and he's on the west coast so they scheduled a 7AM for him lol

KirbyKhan
Mar 20, 2009



Soiled Meat

hbag posted:

wait but why is it okay to gently caress with me

Captain Foo posted:

you’ll figure it out when you’re older

dioxazine
Oct 14, 2004

PokeJoe posted:

i very highly recommend doing both. ive learned an absolute shitload from reading programming books

i think going both is the right route. i have difficulty recycling theory from books into practical applications for direct input stuff. if it's console or mechanics-based, i can typically ingest that without much issue

Doom Mathematic
Sep 2, 2008
I want to re-emphasize that java script: The Good Parts is not a great read for learning about modern JavaScript because it's from 2008 and a lot of incredibly important and valuable stuff has been added to the language since then. Everything from here down is missing from the book, and this is stuff everybody uses every day now. Like, classes. And variables with vaguely sensible scope.

The book is somewhat interesting as a historical milestone.

Asymmetric POSTer
Aug 17, 2005

akadajet posted:

current interviewing status: 9AM guy didn't show up to the teams meeting. Looked him up and he's on the west coast so they scheduled a 7AM for him lol

recruiters are universally incompetent

Corla Plankun
May 8, 2007

improve the lives of everyone

Doom Mathematic posted:

I want to re-emphasize that java script: The Good Parts is not a great read for learning about modern JavaScript because it's from 2008 and a lot of incredibly important and valuable stuff has been added to the language since then. Everything from here down is missing from the book, and this is stuff everybody uses every day now. Like, classes. And variables with vaguely sensible scope.

The book is somewhat interesting as a historical milestone.
is there a modern book that can catch me up on the new stuff?

whenever i write a userscript to fix a lovely website I'm always pleasantly surprised by how easy it is to write vanilla js and i honestly do kinda want to learn more. But I will never learn a js framework for as long as I live because that poo poo seems like even more useless and easily-obsoleted knowledge than the D&D sourcebooks i memorized as a teen.

akadajet
Sep 14, 2003

Doom Mathematic posted:

I want to re-emphasize that java script: The Good Parts is not a great read for learning about modern JavaScript because it's from 2008 and a lot of incredibly important and valuable stuff has been added to the language since then. Everything from here down is missing from the book, and this is stuff everybody uses every day now. Like, classes. And variables with vaguely sensible scope.

The book is somewhat interesting as a historical milestone.

it helped me out before es5 was a thing

RokosCockatrice
Feb 19, 2004

I have a lot of points to make and I will make them later.

dioxazine posted:

sheesh, i'd forgotten how stressful interviewing is

It helps me to remember that they're only inviting me to the interview because they really hope I turn out to be the guy they need for the position. Like, they really, really want me to show up for the interview and be great for the job.

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice

RokosCockatrice posted:

It helps me to remember that they're only inviting me to the interview because they really hope I turn out to be the guy they need for the position. Like, they really, really want me to show up for the interview and be great for the job.

this is maybe a good perspective on why some faang-style interviews are extra stressful: many of the interviewers donít really care how well you do because youíre just a chore to them, and you falling on your rear end is even a slightly better outcome for them because then they at least get to feel smart

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



the "gets to feel smart" part isn't really true, but the "interviewing is a chore" instead of "interviewing is an opportunity" thing is right

post hole digger
Mar 21, 2011

lol

Plorkyeran
Mar 22, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed
when i am forced to interview people i am doing my best to find reasons to justify hiring them so that i don't have to interview more people.

if i had to interview people for open-ended hiring rather than filling specific positions and the result of the interview had no effect on me then i don't know how i'd ever be able to treat it as anything other than a lovely chore to be gotten over with as quickly as possible

ultravoices
May 10, 2004

You are about to embark on a great journey. Are you ready, my friend?

Plorkyeran posted:

when i am forced to interview people i am doing my best to find reasons to justify hiring them so that i don't have to interview more people.

tk
Dec 10, 2003

Nap Ghost

raminasi posted:

And you falling on your rear end is even a slightly better outcome for them because then they at least get to feel smart

This doesnít sound right.

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


Plorkyeran posted:

when i am forced to interview people i am doing my best to find reasons to justify hiring them so that i don't have to interview more people.

yes absolutely. i hope every single candidate is the one I can say yes to so I can stop doing extra bullshit

asur
Dec 28, 2012

raminasi posted:

this is maybe a good perspective on why some faang-style interviews are extra stressful: many of the interviewers donít really care how well you do because youíre just a chore to them, and you falling on your rear end is even a slightly better outcome for them because then they at least get to feel smart

The vast majority of interviewers want you to pass thier bar. They may set the bar too high and thus have a stupidly hard question, but it is significantly easier and less awkward when the interviewee is making progress on the question and you don't have to come up with increasingly obvious hints to help them make progress.

If the company does team or small org specific interviewing then you have the additional factor that if people pass then you can stop interviewing as there aren't any openings in your team/org.

This isn't to say that there aren't assholes who make the whole process miserable for the candidate. Even if there's a low percentage of them, your chance of running into one or more in a job search is almost guaranteed

asur fucked around with this message at 21:37 on May 13, 2022

Plorkyeran
Mar 22, 2007

To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed
also worth noting that the percentage of interviewers who are assholes and percentage of interviews where the interviewer is an rear end in a top hat are very different things. if you're looking for any excuse to reject someone then you're going to interview a lot more candidates than someone who is actually trying to hire someone.

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

I love peeps
Nap Ghost

Plorkyeran posted:

also worth noting that the percentage of interviewers who are assholes and percentage of interviews where the interviewer is an rear end in a top hat are very different things. if you're looking for any excuse to reject someone then you're going to interview a lot more candidates than someone who is actually trying to hire someone.

two sides market for lemons. if you're a genuinely bad interviewee you're gonna be interviewed by more peeps than someone who's decent at interviews, too, so most interviews are worse than average

bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 22:57 on May 13, 2022

Corla Plankun
May 8, 2007

improve the lives of everyone
i got two rejections today and i feel AWFUL about it even though i didnt even care about the companies very much. stupid brain.

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


i accept you friend :)

Cold on a Cob
Feb 6, 2006

i've seen so much, i'm going blind
and i'm brain dead virtually
College Slice
don't feel bad, sometimes you end up rejected for the most obtuse reasons that will never, ever be shared with you:

Cold on a Cob posted:

my last job we passed on someone because the candidate reminded my boss of a former work colleague of his that murdered a prostitute

tk
Dec 10, 2003

Nap Ghost

Corla Plankun posted:

i got two rejections today and i feel AWFUL about it even though i didnt even care about the companies very much. stupid brain.

Sorry. Never feels good to have a door closed on you.

PokeJoe
Aug 24, 2004

hail cgatan


Cold on a Cob posted:

my last job we passed on someone because the candidate reminded my boss of a former work colleague of his that murdered a prostitute

guess he should have just tried harder

lol

fourwood
Sep 9, 2001

Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

RokosCockatrice posted:

It helps me to remember that they're only inviting me to the interview because they really hope I turn out to be the guy they need for the position. Like, they really, really want me to show up for the interview and be great for the job.
prefaced by saying that i agree with youÖ

butÖ i do feel like thereís a strong vein of the opposite in tech, which is (part of) what has gotten everyone to cargo cult leetcode bullshit

ďi really am hoping youíll pass, iím pulling for you, friend! but it pains me greatly to say you failed to find the O(log n) solution to my pet problem in 20 minutes so it devastates me to say we donít think you are a good fit for the roleĒ

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


what really helped me recently is having a chat with coworkers about all the job applications they had where they were rejected

and they are generally very smart and capable people

well that and the fact I'm currently okay with where I am

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


it was at a leaving do for someone, probably would not recommend just starting to talk about it out of the blue

echinopsis
Apr 13, 2004

Corla Plankun posted:

i got two rejections today and i feel AWFUL about it even though i didnt even care about the companies very much. stupid brain.

mate that sucks. feelings are bogus

nudgenudgetilt
Mar 18, 2003

it scratches that "oddly satisfying" itch
references are being checked for a gig at a university. kinda surprised by the questionnaire at least one of my references got:

1. What were the dates of his/her employment with your firm?
2. What was his/her job title and primary responsibilities when he/she started?
3. How would you describe the quality of his/her work?
4. How well did he/she respond to pressure (e.g., from high volume, deadlines, multiple tasks, public
contact)?

5. How well did he/she plan and organize his/her work, and were assignments completed in a timely
fashion? Yes, and again with the attention to quality control.

6. What was the amount of supervision required for him/her?
7. How well did he/she get along with other people (e.g., clients, co-workers, supervisors)?
8. How did he/she respond to criticism/interpersonal conflict?
9. What are his/her strongest skills as an employee? Interpersonal skills, good leader, wanted quality work, didnít want to cut corners.
10. What areas of his/her performance needed improvement?
11. What was the reason for termination?
12. Would you rehire him/her at the same level?

What else would you want me to know?

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP
i specifically picked two references that didnt work at my old company and my prospective (now no longer prospective) boss said "i talked to your refs and we had a great chat, they were really fun. Also your old manager said 'if you don't hire him, i will', so I reckon i'm going to move fast here"

best experience

Achmed Jones
Oct 16, 2004



the leetcode algo lottery sucks, but it's some semblance of objective. anyone can learn the leetcode thing. it's much more game-able than other things. it's not as nice as "do work like you'll be doing," but if you do that honestly you're looking at "tryout periods" and long takehomes and stuff that are their own brand of horrible. anyone who is reasonably intelligent can (if they can find the time) learn to do the algo problems. this is a stand-in for "can learn our weird-rear end tech stack" at a lot of places and it sucks but, like, the thing that would actually fit our model is an apprenticeship and accreditation system like the skilled trades use, but that's not happening any time soon (im not convinced it's even meaningfully possible tbh)

and "has the working memory etc. necessary to leetcode" is at least better than "is white, is male, is gender-conforming" etc

raminasi
Jan 25, 2005

a last drink with no ice
i will admit that my perspective was overly colored by one particular faang rear end in a top hat who asked me his theoretical counting problem question and then sat silently smirking with his arms crossed for forty-five entire minutes, aggressively refusing to respond to any conversational probes about it, while i stumbled around. most of them were much more like "dang i'm really sorry that you couldn't eliminate all your off-by-one errors in this two dimensional matrix traversal i asked you to do" as you're all saying.

tk
Dec 10, 2003

Nap Ghost

raminasi posted:

i will admit that my perspective was overly colored by one particular faang rear end in a top hat who asked me his theoretical counting problem question and then sat silently smirking with his arms crossed for forty-five entire minutes, aggressively refusing to respond to any conversational probes about it, while i stumbled around.

I had an interviewer like that once. Turns out everyone else knew he was an rear end in a top hat and they hired me anyways.

Jonny 290
May 5, 2005




[ASK] Me About OS/2 WARP
my interview story: i used to do interviews for not only peers but our bosses.

we had a really charming and fun and excited black woman come in for a newly open manager position. we had a great time chatting and though it was obvious she didnt know the first god drat thing about CDNs, i felt she was a pretty good pick.

then the next guy came in and he had a $3000 watch and blue stingray skin boots and brought his $2k suitcase in to the interview glassbox and i wanted to rip his throat out and piss down the hole at the end. all he wanted was a corner office and secretaries to ogle.

i +3'd the first candidate and -10'd the second and she got hired and is a loyal and effective and compassionate manager of one of the cse teams back there to this day and a couple times a year we go out for a sandwich and a chat


shitcan the assholes if you ever get handed the power to do so

AnimeIsTrash
Jun 30, 2018

raminasi posted:

i will admit that my perspective was overly colored by one particular faang rear end in a top hat who asked me his theoretical counting problem question and then sat silently smirking with his arms crossed for forty-five entire minutes, aggressively refusing to respond to any conversational probes about it, while i stumbled around. most of them were much more like "dang i'm really sorry that you couldn't eliminate all your off-by-one errors in this two dimensional matrix traversal i asked you to do" as you're all saying.

I had the same interview when I was about to graduate college and the experience made me feel like complete poo poo. I could tell when I walked in he didn't like me and there was no way I was going to get the job.

Probably my best interview was when someone just sat down with me and we walked through a problem together. It was something he had to solve recently, and he dumbed it down to an interview question.

Qtotonibudinibudet
Nov 7, 2011



Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

Achmed Jones posted:

the leetcode algo lottery sucks, but it's some semblance of objective. anyone can learn the leetcode thing. it's much more game-able than other things. it's not as nice as "do work like you'll be doing," but if you do that honestly you're looking at "tryout periods" and long takehomes and stuff that are their own brand of horrible

idk, someone on our team managed to put together a reasonable toy app skeleton that approximates our typical "extract poo poo from API, parse it, interact with other parts of the program based on it" that's sufficient to demonstrate that you can use golang channels and the http library in ~45m of pair programming. mostly you just need an incomplete larger app for candidates to fill in

doing hackerrank to try and prep for my own interview and this poo poo is infuriating. the problems so far haven't required anything beyond use of bare basics in the language--nothing really even needs so much as a type, let alone an interface, channels, goroutines, etc. hardly anything warrants more than one function. maybe they get more complex further down the line? idk. on the flipside, they do throw idiotic math puzzles at you, so 80% of it is figuring out what the optimal game theory strat is for some made up boardgame, and then you realize there's gently caress all required to implement the thing once you figure out the trick

also amusing was glassdoor saying they often give this elevator design problem for non-coding stuff, looking up that, and seeing that there are a ton of youtube vids and blogs on it that somehow give like the exact same answer. you'd think there'd be like, some variation for an open-ended question, but no, they're all seemingly reading off the same scripted list of talking points you're supposed to cover

Stringent
Dec 22, 2004

The internet is the universal sewer.

lol

Armitag3
Mar 15, 2020

Forget it Jake, it's cybertown.

Corla Plankun posted:

is there a modern book that can catch me up on the new stuff?

whenever i write a userscript to fix a lovely website I'm always pleasantly surprised by how easy it is to write vanilla js and i honestly do kinda want to learn more. But I will never learn a js framework for as long as I live because that poo poo seems like even more useless and easily-obsoleted knowledge than the D&D sourcebooks i memorized as a teen.

https://github.com/getify/You-Dont-Know-JS/tree/1st-ed

Specifically, maybe, ES6 and Beyond https://github.com/getify/You-Dont-Know-JS/blob/1st-ed/es6%20&%20beyond/README.md#you-dont-know-js-es6--beyond

Armitag3 fucked around with this message at 14:23 on May 14, 2022

PIZZA.BAT
Nov 12, 2016

:cheers:

Corla Plankun posted:

i got two rejections today and i feel AWFUL about it even though i didnt even care about the companies very much. stupid brain.

i used to feel this until i was out in the world long enough to hear follow up stories about places that i was rejected from. in most cases getting rejected is a blessing in disguise

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zokie
Feb 13, 2006

Out of many, Sweden
just jumping in to say that as a computer touched ADHD has in many ways been a boon. one thing Iíve come to realize is that with ADHD you have zero ďinternalĒ motivation, either something is interesting and Iíll do it or itís not interesting. the only other way is OTHER people care about something which works great for me at work. As long as I feel that others care about some project Iím a efficient coding machine, but if thereís no real deadline or stakeholders driving the project I end up doing everything but what I should be doing.

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