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I love it when recruiters exchange three emails to set up a 5 minute call to tell you they're going a different direction. better than being ghosted for sure, but I can't help but think there's a happy medium. oh well, at least a different way-less-ideal job is at the reference check/final interview stage
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May 18, 2022 20:15
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| # ? Jan 20, 2025 19:47 |
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Did mock initial interview today, rated 10/10 would talk to me again. Now I just need to do it foreal. Very comfortable talking about myself. Buddy didn't do too well and he said he has to watch King's Speech over the weekend.
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May 20, 2022 20:56
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just killed it on a final interview. fingers crossed for an offer next week.
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May 20, 2022 21:32
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nudgenudgetilt posted:just killed it on a final interview. fingers crossed for an offer next week. same 🤝
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May 20, 2022 23:41
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good luck goons. 
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May 20, 2022 23:56
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developers having to be on call is kind of a red flag, right? like if you say you care so much about uptime, you ought to have first responders spread over timezones and not some groggy dude at 4am, right? i get the aspect dogfooding and personal responsibility, but more often than not i will not be able to build my stuff to the level of reliability needed so its unfair to ask me to support something i would not sign off on
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May 23, 2022 19:49
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4lokos basilisk posted:developers having to be on call is kind of a red flag, right? depends. even if you have dedicated first line ops being paged, you need an escalation path.
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May 23, 2022 19:51
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4lokos basilisk posted:developers having to be on call is kind of a red flag, right? I'll be on call for sure, but you bet your rear end you'll be paying for every second of on call time.
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May 23, 2022 19:54
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I was only on call for one job and that was for a news app during a hurricane which I didn't think was that unreasonable
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May 23, 2022 20:03
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every job i've interviewed with that had an on call rotation has also had other bad smells that made me not want to work there so I think it is just a symptom of bad leadership one of them had oncall and their only product was an internal reporting service for marketing and exec, lmfao if im going to bring that up outside of work hours, who cares
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May 23, 2022 20:06
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i was on call for a couple of jobs but i was also responsible for programming the hooks that would cause me to get beeped.
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May 23, 2022 20:07
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there's not a good reason to be on call unless you're support or whatever. Software shouldn't be so lovely that a dev needs to be at the beck and call of someone all the time and if it is the corporation is a terrible environment to work in
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May 23, 2022 20:16
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we forced you to make this in too tight a timeframe so it's a big piece of poo poo. now to force you on call to keep the sticks and glue from falling apart.
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May 23, 2022 20:17
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imagine if any other engineering worked that way. civil engineer on call because the bridge keeps breaking and you have to go put some bricks back at 3am please no real engineers tell me it works this way I want to live in ignorance
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May 23, 2022 20:18
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PokeJoe posted:imagine if any other engineering worked that way. civil engineer on call because the bridge keeps breaking and you have to go put some bricks back at 3am ya. busted infrastructure like water/sewer/steam/power lines are usually left til the next business day
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May 23, 2022 20:22
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real engineers dont usually do any implementation at all i dont think, its all design for them and there are no design emergencies outside of that one scene in apollo 13
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May 23, 2022 20:49
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Corla Plankun posted:real engineers dont usually do any implementation at all i dont think, its all design for them and there are no design emergencies outside of that one scene in apollo 13 the whole on-call engineering services industry would like a word with you
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May 23, 2022 20:51
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nudgenudgetilt posted:the whole on-call engineering services industry would like a word with you noo! stop informing me!!
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May 23, 2022 20:52
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every software engineering job I had ended up being specialized enough that the team of engineers working on given components were on-call for them. The places that had a component where you were expected to operate a living system did take their responsibilities differently and there was a more interesting focus on instrumentation, tooling, and operability than the places that just threw the software over the fence to an ops team. Also (now) as SRE it's a lot nicer to be on the front lines with engineers in the escalation path if things break. It does feel like it's easier to negotiate with product sides of the org when operational pains are taking engineering hours away from whatever is on the product roadmap as well.
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May 23, 2022 20:55
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nudgenudgetilt posted:the whole on-call engineering services industry would like a word with you weird! seems like the existence of this would have come up while i was doing an engineering undergrad but this is the first i've ever heard of it!
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May 23, 2022 20:57
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recently had a former coworker who i was on good terms with reach out to me on linkedin asking if i was interested at a position at their new place. i emailed the CTO to get more info on the position and it sounds like i would be a perfect fit. they want to set up and interview and of course asked for a number. any suggestions of how to tactfully deflect/respond to that? particularly with the knowledge that 1) i currently have a stable job i don't mind 2) i have 15 years experience doing the exact type of work they want 3) i have a good recommendation from my former coworker. something more than the usual "i have faith $COMPANY can make a competitive offer based on my skillset and experience" to indicate that theyre guna have to go a bit farther to get me to switch
Kuvo fucked around with this message at 21:31 on May 23, 2022 |
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May 23, 2022 21:23
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Kuvo posted:"i have faith $COMPANY can make a competitive offer based on my skillset and experience" this makes you sound like an asshat. don't ever say this. either just say "i can't see the numbers working out, thanks though", or "i'm pretty happy with my current situation, but might reconsider for $fig"
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May 23, 2022 21:31
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i think company didnt say a number yet. if you're playing sayanumber chicken then thats perfectly reasonable
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May 23, 2022 21:33
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correct, no numbers from either side yet
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May 23, 2022 21:38
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sorry, misunderstood. i'd still argue it comes off a little pompus though. it sounds like the conversation thus far has has a very casual tone, i think this sounds out of place to me i'd personally go with something like "it's still too early to know what a good salary would be for me in this role" or more likely throw out an over the top figure and follow it up with a "but I'm flexible depending on the situation"
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May 23, 2022 21:41
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PokeJoe posted:there's not a good reason to be on call unless you're support or whatever. Software shouldn't be so lovely that a dev needs to be at the beck and call of someone all the time and if it is the corporation is a terrible environment to work in if nobody is paying for tight SLAs, sure I guess PokeJoe posted:imagine if any other engineering worked that way. civil engineer on call because the bridge keeps breaking and you have to go put some bricks back at 3am if something hits a bridge enough that nothing is going to go over it how fast do you think it’ll be inspected? how about pipelines, or power or anything else?
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May 23, 2022 21:41
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what the hell. if you write some lovely code you should be responsible for operating it. that’s the premise of the whole devops thing over the last decade. i don’t think i’ve worked a single job that didn’t have me go on some sort of oncall. also oncall doesn’t have to mean “wakes you up at 3am” answering the next day is a fine SLA for some teams
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May 23, 2022 21:41
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Pie Colony posted:what the hell. if you write some lovely code you should be responsible for operating it. that’s the premise of the whole devops thing over the last decade. i don’t think i’ve worked a single job that didn’t have me go on some sort of oncall. also oncall doesn’t have to mean “wakes you up at 3am” answering the next day is a fine SLA for some teams yeah imo "on call" doesn't mean anything without knowing the specific SLA. i've been on teams where the "on-call" rotation was that each week one team member had an excuse to ignore their tickets when someone else in the company had some question or issue with the team's stuff. it only applied during normal working hours.
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May 23, 2022 21:47
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hobbesmaster posted:if nobody is paying for tight SLAs, sure I guess do they call the guy who designed the pipeline or a totally separate entity
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May 23, 2022 21:48
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"on call" during working hours is just having a job
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May 23, 2022 21:48
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oncall is more about who responds to failures (first) than when. although if they’re being upfront about it in the interview it probably means 24/7
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May 23, 2022 21:57
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PokeJoe posted:do they call the guy who designed the pipeline or a totally separate entity I guess that’s a bad example. for big stuff like that going down oil and gas has a tendency for everybody involved to be called out and stand around for $texas/hour because they’re losing, uh, an $emirate/hour often the operator and designer are different entities in physical infrastructure this is not true as often in software
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May 23, 2022 22:51
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hobbesmaster posted:often the operator and designer are different entities in physical infrastructure this is not true as often in software it's also worth mentioning that operator and designer doesn't map directly to technician and engineer either. technicians may be the first line of defense for operators, but when things go wrong engineers are called in to do the maths
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May 23, 2022 23:04
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4lokos basilisk posted:developers having to be on call is kind of a red flag, right? lol no, developers should be on call for the code that they write if it's code you're confident enough to deploy to production you should be confident that it'll run well enough that you can be paged for it
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May 24, 2022 00:04
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gently caress you if you expect someone else’s phone to be hooked up to receive calls for your lovely code
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May 24, 2022 00:19
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have y'all just only ever worked in one dev shops or???
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May 24, 2022 00:25
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am i being paid the money my code is making while it runs as i sleep?
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May 24, 2022 00:35
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Blinkz0rz posted:lol no, developers should be on call for the code that they write Hire QA and test poo poo before it gets deployed. Don't make devs write, test, and release code all themselves and then get mad when they don't also want to be on call for it too.
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May 24, 2022 01:01
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our app teams are large enough and distributed enough for 24/7 coverage without having to have a dev on call our operations teams are less lucky doing internal platform work, I live in a grey area, and we technically have an on-call schedule but something has to be very very very wrong for one of us to get paged
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May 24, 2022 01:05
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| # ? Jan 20, 2025 19:47 |
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everywhere i've worked (huge techbro monstrosity, small tech, 4 person startup, etc) has had an expectation of being on call, but with 0 additional compensation, and 0 mention of it during hiring or when signing offers. it is garbage tier "your job owns your life" poo poo, and the "developers should be on call for the code that they write" attitude that proliferates this kind of stupidity is annoying. i wanted to smack a new hire once when he said "we're developers, so we're pretty much on call 24/7". if you are compensated for it, and it is made clear during hiring, then that's fine because at least you can make a choice about it prior to joining a company. but otherwise gently caress that. it's one of the things that makes me very happy ive never been a backend or web developer. i'm a mobile dev and am on call like every 8th weekend or something. i dont even have pager duty installed, because a) gently caress that and b) it's not like i'm going to fix the issue (which is 99% a backend bug anyways) and get through app review on a saturday night. thank you for reading my on call rant.
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May 24, 2022 01:09
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