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Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

THIS NEW AV WILL LET ME POST LIZARD TITS TWICE AS EFFICIENTLY!

IT'S GIVING ME A FUCKING BONER RIGHT NOW!


I dunno I never bought em.

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Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Why machines are good

Yami Fenrir posted:

This is secretly why machines are so stupidly good, imo.

You save SO MUCH building/district space not having to build consumer districts. You can get a tech advantage ridiculously fast.

The fact that you can grab ALL the planets and eventually have ALL the energy and mineral districts ever just means your early advantage can be translated into a late one, too.

Don't even get me started on a certain precursor event chain reward, though.

Gort fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Dec 9, 2019

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000



I asked in a huffy way but that's the post I was wondering about. Played a hive mind robot in 2.2, they have a very solid mid / late game once you get machine worlds. 10 year terraform so you get a few in the 2300s. They also have a slow start and do well in the late game. Do you guys feel the late game really provides a challenge the other races can't handle? In my experience late game AI is a joke since it can't keep up over time. So I was curious what mechanic they let you bypass that other builds can't.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Ham Sandwiches posted:

It's very odd, to me, that people keep calling machines broken when they seem to mean that the singleplayer game with busted AI and too much micro + pacing issues has less micro and pacing issues

It's not like any of the other builds are all that challenging I just keep seeing this uniform opinion repeated over and over, nobody ever goes into detail like "well a NORMAL race can win by 2350 but a machine race can win by 2325 " just they're broken broken broken. If only the broken machines weren't there to ruin Stellaris tightly balanced gameplay and progression.

Play them in multiplayer against people playing as Organics. See how it goes for yourself.

As for why:

Yami Fenrir posted:

This is secretly why machines are so stupidly good, imo.

You save SO MUCH building/district space not having to build consumer districts. You can get a tech advantage ridiculously fast.

The fact that you can grab ALL the planets and eventually have ALL the energy and mineral districts ever just means your early advantage can be translated into a late one, too.

Don't even get me started on a certain precursor event chain reward, though.

Ham Sandwiches posted:

I asked in a huffy way but that's the post I was wondering about. Played a hive mind robot in 2.2, they have a very solid mid / late game once you get machine worlds. 10 year terraform so you get a few in the 2300s. They also have a slow start and do well in the late game. Do you guys feel the late game really provides a challenge the other races can't handle? In my experience late game AI is a joke since it can't keep up over time. So I was curious what mechanic they let you bypass that other builds can't.

No it's the same thing where you'll be absolutely dominant (usually well before Machine Worlds come into play IMO), it just happens so much faster than it can with regular organics. Which honestly makes the AI's inability to keep up that much more obvious.

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Dec 9, 2019

Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...


Grimey Drawer

Yami Fenrir posted:

This is secretly why machines are so stupidly good, imo.

You save SO MUCH building/district space not having to build consumer districts. You can get a tech advantage ridiculously fast.

The fact that you can grab ALL the planets and eventually have ALL the energy and mineral districts ever just means your early advantage can be translated into a late one, too.

Don't even get me started on a certain precursor event chain reward, though.

This still weirds me out a bit. If you think about it, "Consumer Goods" is so oddly all-encompassing, it even gets used up by research, for example! So this suggests it's not just your industry building the new iPhone Galaxy X and I assume stuff like toilet paper rolls, but if consumer goods includes important stuff like research tools, why not extrapolate this to mean that bio hiveminds and machine gestalts just create the equivalent "Thing Stuff" to support their own "economies"? The devs just needed to find some fancy names for the gestalt-equivalents and maybe do some re-balancing instead of just flat-out reducing the number of game elements for them.

Hell, gestalts have stuff like maintenance drones, so you would logically assume the drones would use up some kind of maintenance equipment to do their work, instead of just minerals. It breaks my immersion really badly that gestalts and normal space people are basically operating on different levels of abstraction in Stellaris: NSPs get their economy simulation with consumer goods and stuff, while hiveminds just have their drones shoot magic beams into a bunch of rocks and presto, maintenance is done!

Either way is perfectly fine on their own, but mixing them both into the same game just looks really strange to me.

Ham Sandwiches
Jul 7, 2000



PittTheElder posted:

No it's the same thing where you'll be absolutely dominant (usually well before Machine Worlds come into play IMO), it just happens so much faster than it can with regular organics. Which honestly makes the AI's inability to keep up that much more obvious.

I haven't played competitive multi with them so I haven't seen it myself. It seemed to me that you are at risk of getting hemmed in the early game, more than a lot of other races. Seemed to me like organic hive minds could outexpand robot hive minds in the early game, with the the tradeoff that fully rolling machine empires are hard to stop once they get there.

I appreciate the added detail, that's what I was looking for.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Ham Sandwiches posted:

I haven't played competitive multi with them so I haven't seen it myself. It seemed to me that you are at risk of getting hemmed in the early game, more than a lot of other races. Seemed to me like organic hive minds could outexpand robot hive minds in the early game, with the the tradeoff that fully rolling machine empires are hard to stop once they get there.

I appreciate the added detail, that's what I was looking for.

Nah it's just the opposite. The 100% habitability thing means you can easily make do on a much smaller map area, because you'll make much better use of the planets you do have access to. And not having to produce food or CGs means it's even easier to swing into mass alloy or tech production.

Balance wise the only real disadvantage they face is not being able to acquire pops by conquest, but their growth speed is so good that this doesn't really matter in the face of their advantages. God help you if you're facing an aggressive Assimilator though.

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 23:28 on Dec 9, 2019

Electro-Boogie Jack
Nov 22, 2006
bagger mcguirk sent me.


Major Isoor posted:

Has Paradox stated when Federations is coming out, by any chance? Because although there have been many gripes in this thread (some of them my own), I'm still excited for the origin stuff that's being introduced in the expansion.

Me too, I think it all looks pretty good. There's just so much deferred maintenance that needs to go into the game, though, and while I guess they're taking care of some of that during the next month or two before the expansion comes out, I hope they're serious about looking at all of the issues that players have raised and working through them until they're actually fixed.

Speaking of a weird minor one, I haven't run into this before but the other day I colonized a planet with 3 presapient pops on it and now I seem to have a permanent -3 open jobs?

Cynic Jester
Apr 11, 2009

Let's put a simile on that face
A dazzling simile
Twinkling like the night sky


Ham Sandwiches posted:

I haven't played competitive multi with them so I haven't seen it myself. It seemed to me that you are at risk of getting hemmed in the early game, more than a lot of other races. Seemed to me like organic hive minds could outexpand robot hive minds in the early game, with the the tradeoff that fully rolling machine empires are hard to stop once they get there.

I appreciate the added detail, that's what I was looking for.

Thing is, robots expand faster as they can colonize everything and they don't take a growth penalty for fresh colonies. They also benefit more and sooner from specialization, as they need more of fewer resources, making a focus on whatever resource more impactful than it would for mjost organic empires. As Stellaris is very much about snowballing early, the absurd pop growth colonizing wildly nets you is hard to match.

And that's just regular robots, the special variant civics make them even more broken.

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

The company has no assets of any significant value.


Electro-Boogie Jack posted:

Speaking of a weird minor one, I haven't run into this before but the other day I colonized a planet with 3 presapient pops on it and now I seem to have a permanent -3 open jobs?
There's a dumb display issue where any pop working a "free" job gets counted as employed but the total number of jobs available doesn't go up. So if you have 12 robot servants or livestock slaves and 2 unfilled specialists jobs it'll show you as having -10 jobs available

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



Libluini posted:

This still weirds me out a bit. If you think about it, "Consumer Goods" is so oddly all-encompassing, it even gets used up by research, for example! So this suggests it's not just your industry building the new iPhone Galaxy X and I assume stuff like toilet paper rolls, but if consumer goods includes important stuff like research tools, why not extrapolate this to mean that bio hiveminds and machine gestalts just create the equivalent "Thing Stuff" to support their own "economies"? The devs just needed to find some fancy names for the gestalt-equivalents and maybe do some re-balancing instead of just flat-out reducing the number of game elements for them.

Hell, gestalts have stuff like maintenance drones, so you would logically assume the drones would use up some kind of maintenance equipment to do their work, instead of just minerals. It breaks my immersion really badly that gestalts and normal space people are basically operating on different levels of abstraction in Stellaris: NSPs get their economy simulation with consumer goods and stuff, while hiveminds just have their drones shoot magic beams into a bunch of rocks and presto, maintenance is done!

Either way is perfectly fine on their own, but mixing them both into the same game just looks really strange to me.
I've had this nagging "I think Gestalts are wonky and I dont like using them but I cant put a finger on it" and think this post just turned the lightbulb on.

I also dislike that robots are 100% habitability on everything for robots - are you telling me that the same generic robot could be plopped onto Hoth or Tatooine and function with the same efficiency? I doubt it. maybe they should get an inherent habitability boost like Lithoids do but 100% on everything is just too good that there needs to be some handwaving or fluff to lower that number.

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

The company has no assets of any significant value.


Gort posted:

If you're thinking that colonising, conquering and managing the entire galaxy sounds like a chore, well, it is.
Consider force-vassalizing everyone and not integrating. Even if you get +300 threat from a massive conquest it's not hard to get them into loyal territory after a couple decades, especially if you gift them some alloys for +100 relations. They'll spend them building a fleet that protects you anyway.

And even if they're disloyal they very rarely actually rebel since they need a sponsoring empire to also attack you.

ShadowHawk fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Dec 9, 2019

Shadowlyger
Nov 5, 2009

FREE
HONG
KONG


Libluini posted:

This still weirds me out a bit. If you think about it, "Consumer Goods" is so oddly all-encompassing, it even gets used up by research, for example! So this suggests it's not just your industry building the new iPhone Galaxy X and I assume stuff like toilet paper rolls, but if consumer goods includes important stuff like research tools, why not extrapolate this to mean that bio hiveminds and machine gestalts just create the equivalent "Thing Stuff" to support their own "economies"? The devs just needed to find some fancy names for the gestalt-equivalents and maybe do some re-balancing instead of just flat-out reducing the number of game elements for them.

Hell, gestalts have stuff like maintenance drones, so you would logically assume the drones would use up some kind of maintenance equipment to do their work, instead of just minerals. It breaks my immersion really badly that gestalts and normal space people are basically operating on different levels of abstraction in Stellaris: NSPs get their economy simulation with consumer goods and stuff, while hiveminds just have their drones shoot magic beams into a bunch of rocks and presto, maintenance is done!

Either way is perfectly fine on their own, but mixing them both into the same game just looks really strange to me.

No, gently caress that. I play Gestalt specifically to avoid all this fiddly bullshit that regular empires have had foisted upon them.

standard.deviant
May 16, 2012

Globally Indigent

ShadowHawk posted:

There's a dumb display issue where any pop working a "free" job gets counted as employed but the total number of jobs available doesn't go up. So if you have 12 robot servants or livestock slaves and 2 unfilled specialists jobs it'll show you as having -10 jobs available
Same deal for purge jobsóbeing exterminated is just another job at the end of the day.

LonsomeSon
Nov 22, 2009

A fishperson in an intimidating hat!


standard.deviant posted:

Same deal for purge jobsóbeing exterminated is just another job at the end of the day

Good thread title, or best thread title?!

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort



ShadowHawk posted:

Consider force-vassalizing everyone and not integrating. Even if you get +300 threat from a massive conquest it's not hard to get them into loyal territory after a couple decades, especially if you gift them some alloys for +100 relations. They'll spend them building a fleet that protects you anyway.

And even if they're disloyal they very rarely actually rebel since they need a sponsoring empire to also attack you.
I hate having vassals because they invariably find a way to claim a single system halfway across the galaxy that they then somehow "occupy" despite my fleet taking the system then they get it after the war which makes the borders ugly as gently caress and break my starbase chain.

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

The company has no assets of any significant value.


AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:

I hate having vassals because they invariably find a way to claim a single system halfway across the galaxy that they then somehow "occupy" despite my fleet taking the system then they get it after the war which makes the borders ugly as gently caress and break my starbase chain.
I believe vassals don't usually make new claims. If you can spot an existing claim before the war one solution is to double-claim the system to override their claim.

Yami Fenrir
Jan 25, 2015

Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

standard.deviant posted:

Same deal for purge jobsóbeing exterminated is just another job at the end of the day.

it even does it for pre sentients, which is super annoying.

Also I just want to point out that machines are so overpowered that the AI can actually use them and noticably keep up with the player. Every single game i have one they're way ahead of all other AI.

That's an achievement in it's own right for the stellaris AI lol.

Meme Poker Party
Sep 1, 2006

THIS NEW AV WILL LET ME POST LIZARD TITS TWICE AS EFFICIENTLY!

IT'S GIVING ME A FUCKING BONER RIGHT NOW!


Yami Fenrir posted:

Also I just want to point out that machines are so overpowered that the AI can actually use them and noticably keep up with the player.

The most damning evidence yet.

Yami Fenrir
Jan 25, 2015

Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

Btw, I've been trying to play megacorps and I've just kind of been failing. Their penalty just seems way too big considering you're practically expected to go over admin cap.

I really want to like the government type but it just seems so fundamentally flawed to me.

Can anyone give me some tips? The best i can come up with currently is to... wait for the dlc and spam admin cap jobs as a trade league.



Speaking of which i do wonder if gestalts get those jobs too. They seem, once again, better for them than for base empires.

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

The company has no assets of any significant value.


LonsomeSon posted:

Good thread title, or best thread title?!
Best.

GunnerJ
Aug 1, 2005

Do you think this is funny?


Tweet on the shattered ring origin gives some idea of how they plan to handle starts with less than useful amounts of available minerals:

https://twitter.com/StellarisGame/status/1204379232627044353

cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011





GunnerJ posted:

Tweet on the shattered ring origin gives some idea of how they plan to handle starts with less than useful amounts of available minerals:

https://twitter.com/StellarisGame/status/1204379232627044353

i see they stole the evil comet/asteroid name from Outer Wilds

that's fine though because it is a cool name for an evil mystery rock

Kaal
May 22, 2002

JEREMY CORBYN BULLIED MY NAZI GRANDPA IN PRIMARY SCHOOL



Yami Fenrir posted:

Btw, I've been trying to play megacorps and I've just kind of been failing. Their penalty just seems way too big considering you're practically expected to go over admin cap.

I really want to like the government type but it just seems so fundamentally flawed to me.

Can anyone give me some tips? The best i can come up with currently is to... wait for the dlc and spam admin cap jobs as a trade league.



Speaking of which i do wonder if gestalts get those jobs too. They seem, once again, better for them than for base empires.

The only real tip I have is that you definitely want to link together a trade station network rather than relying on piracy patrols. Megacorps will always struggle to expand until fairly late in the game, so find ways to invest heavily in the space that you do have.

Aethernet
Jan 28, 2009

This is the Captain...

Our glorious political masters have, in their wisdom, decided to form an alliance with a rag-tag bunch of freedom fighters right when the Federation has us at a tactical disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the Feds firing on our vessels...

Damn you Huxley!



Grimey Drawer

Yami Fenrir posted:

Btw, I've been trying to play megacorps and I've just kind of been failing. Their penalty just seems way too big considering you're practically expected to go over admin cap.

I really want to like the government type but it just seems so fundamentally flawed to me.

Can anyone give me some tips? The best i can come up with currently is to... wait for the dlc and spam admin cap jobs as a trade league.



Speaking of which i do wonder if gestalts get those jobs too. They seem, once again, better for them than for base empires.

You need to lean hard into trade, go Fan Xen, Thrifty etc and build up trading hubs early. You can build corporate outposts that boost naval cap, which you should spam once you're above a given size. You should head for Galactic Wonders asap and buy the materials needed to build them using the money you've made from trade, rather than getting productivity from worlds. Conquer subsidiaries rather than taking territory.

Libluini
May 18, 2012

I gravitated towards the Greens, eventually even joining the party itself.

The Linke is a party I grudgingly accept exists, but I've learned enough about DDR-history I can't bring myself to trust a party that was once the SED, a party leading the corrupt state apparatus ...


Grimey Drawer

cock hero flux posted:

i see they stole the evil comet/asteroid name from Outer Wilds

that's fine though because it is a cool name for an evil mystery rock

I don't think you can steal something as basic sounding as "the interloper". That's just one step above claiming they stole "the" from Outer Worlds.

spectralent
Oct 1, 2014

Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

Are hive minds similarly broken or is it just robots?

Major Isoor
Mar 23, 2011





Plaster Town Cop

Speaking of robots, if I was to say, have a big ol' barren world packed with robots mining minerals for me...and they became a machine uprising...how difficult would it be to quell the uprising? (Especially if that planet is my primary source of minerals) As in like, would I be able to have my fleet and army parked on the planet and immediately bombard/attack it before things get out of hand.

And would the planet immediately turn to their side, or would a battle between my ground forces and theirs ensue? I hope it's the latter, else there wouldn't really be much point in me investing in a good garrison.

Finally, would only the one planet I have robots on turn? Since what if I have other planets/habitats in the system without any robots? Surely they'll still remain under my control, at the onset at least

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


spectralent posted:

Are hive minds similarly broken or is it just robots?

Just robots. Hive minds are worse than normal organics, partially because normal organics can build robots and hive minds can't.

And Tyler Too!
Aug 15, 2007
ROCKET JOCKEY OWNS

Stichelin it is, thank you!


I like hive minds because I can eat robots and I get a shitload of alloys for the trouble.

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

The company has no assets of any significant value.


Major Isoor posted:

Speaking of robots, if I was to say, have a big ol' barren world packed with robots mining minerals for me...and they became a machine uprising...how difficult would it be to quell the uprising? (Especially if that planet is my primary source of minerals) As in like, would I be able to have my fleet and army parked on the planet and immediately bombard/attack it before things get out of hand.

And would the planet immediately turn to their side, or would a battle between my ground forces and theirs ensue? I hope it's the latter, else there wouldn't really be much point in me investing in a good garrison.

Finally, would only the one planet I have robots on turn? Since what if I have other planets/habitats in the system without any robots? Surely they'll still remain under my control, at the onset at least
Frustratingly, the number of actual robots you have is entirely irrelevant to the AI rebellion event. You can have 0 robot pops on a planet, and the game will flip a coin and put it under robot control. Then it will generate a bunch of free machine pops and put them on the planet to start eradicating/enslaving your citizens.

Major Isoor
Mar 23, 2011





Plaster Town Cop

ShadowHawk posted:

Frustratingly, the number of actual robots you have is entirely irrelevant to the AI rebellion event. You can have 0 robot pops on a planet, and the game will flip a coin and put it under robot control. Then it will generate a bunch of free machine pops and put them on the planet to start eradicating/enslaving your citizens.

Argh, that's annoying. Well, I guess if I go down that route (instead of slaves/prisoners toiling away in my mines) then I'll REALLY have to make sure I don't fall victim to the machine uprising.

EDIT: Hmm, actually - slaves can only potentially get 'minor' uprisings/revolts (compared to machine uprisings at least) right? So, if I avoid getting the 'slaver guilds' civic (since that's the only thing that forces you to have set percentage of slaves per planet, right?) and have a mining world packed with slaves, would that be better than a penal colony? I guess I'd have to avoid labelling it as a thrall world though, since after looking it up they apparently don't get mineral purification plants, which is...kind of a big deal for a mining world

I suppose I could potentially have like, a thrall world for my farming planet, then either a penal colony or a non-thrall slave world for my mining world... I've never really messed around with the new(ish) resort/penal/thrall world classifications, so I'm a bit out of my depth. (So yeah, sorry about all the questions, etc.!)

Major Isoor fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Dec 11, 2019

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

The company has no assets of any significant value.


Major Isoor posted:

Argh, that's annoying. Well, I guess if I go down that route (instead of slaves/prisoners toiling away in my mines) then I'll REALLY have to make sure I don't fall victim to the machine uprising.
Just don't research synths (or the final physics computer). Outlaw AI after you get droids and it'll stop appearing as a research option. Only other way is to get the cybernetic ascension (you don't need the second step).

Synths tech only gives your robots +2 points or whatever, it's not the most amazing tech and it's definitely not worth the civil war you sometimes have to fight.

Yami Fenrir
Jan 25, 2015

Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

Can't you just give them citizen rights to stop any rebellion?

I usually just do that and have never seen a rebellion.

ShadowHawk
Jun 25, 2000

The company has no assets of any significant value.


Yami Fenrir posted:

Can't you just give them citizen rights to stop any rebellion?

I usually just do that and have never seen a rebellion.
Yeah but if you do that they start demanding consumer goods and more amenities.

Yami Fenrir
Jan 25, 2015

Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

ShadowHawk posted:

Yeah but if you do that they start demanding consumer goods and more amenities.

Better than a rebellion.

Also by the time you get synths you should have your economy in order

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I stab at thee

Yami Fenrir posted:

Better than a rebellion.
But worse than just sticking with droids

Yami Fenrir
Jan 25, 2015

Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

Just stop being dicks to your robots or you'll prove the Determined Exterminators right.

Black Pants
Jan 16, 2008

Such comfortable, magical pants!

Lipstick Apathy

ShadowHawk posted:

Just don't research synths (or the final physics computer). Outlaw AI after you get droids and it'll stop appearing as a research option. Only other way is to get the cybernetic ascension (you don't need the second step).

Synths tech only gives your robots +2 points or whatever, it's not the most amazing tech and it's definitely not worth the civil war you sometimes have to fight.

Wrong. 100% wrong. Research synths, produce the best drat slaves you can get since they're slaves that can work specialist jobs (And that you construct as you need). Then just patch the AI during the rampancy event. Then you'll never have to worry about it again.

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Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



Isn't the patch event like totally unreliable and more than likely not to fire?

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