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Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Endorph posted:

i literally do not know where to start with a lot of comic books and when i ask i get a bunch of different answers that are obviously not self-contained stories. if you ask where to start with jojo's you get told volume 1. it is linear.

furthermore, jojo's is one work, by one person, that is consistent within itself. this is not true of basically any superhero comic.

did you know there are more than just superhero comics published outside of japan : O

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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


like i just want to go 'i want to read this' and pick up something and read it from beginning to end and experience a complete story. this is not an experience i have been able to figure out how to get from batman despite trying since i watched the justice league cartoon when i was 12.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Alaois posted:

did you know there are more than just superhero comics published outside of japan : O
yes, that's why I specified 'superhero comic' and not 'western comic', braingenius. like, i read y the last man and thought it was okay. lost the plot a bit at the end but it had some ideas. same with some other non-superhero western comics, or even sueprhero ones that arent part of the big dc/marvel universes. I wish the dc/marvel universes played more like that.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Endorph posted:

yes, that's why I specified 'superhero comic' and not 'western comic', braingenius

and thats why I've been saying "western comics" every time and not just "superhero comics"

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


Alaois posted:

and thats why I've been saying "western comics" every time and not just "superhero comics"
But I'm talking about and criticizing superhero comics. I've read and enjoyed western comics that aren't superhero comics. I am criticizing superhero comcis.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


Augus posted:

but they aren't
not even the people who are immersed in those big shared universes think they are
if you follow the arc of even one single character through the history of marvel or dc comics you will inevitable watch them get pulled back and forth in multiple wildly different directions as they are bounced between different artists and writers with different visions of who the character is and where they should go, which is why major western comics are so infamous for their killing and then reviving characters.

People having different takes on the broad archetype a specific superhero embodies is baked into the formula of Marvel and DC comics. Reading someone's interpretation, responding to it, and discussing what worked or didn't work is just what's going to happen. You can find it frustrating that status quo changes don't last beyond however long a certain writer is the voice for a character, but there's certainly a lot of comics out there with a single creative team and endpoint in mind, or alternatively lots of comic adjacent media like the DCAU or MCU you can go to for fixed takes on characters. I don't believe the changing authors is a significantly large barrier to entry for superhero comics though, like plenty of shared nerd universes exist in other media like books or TV and nobody poo-poos them as much.


Ultimately, this curse will not be lifted until capitalism dies and the Superman statue in the DC office with Jerry Siegel's bones sealed inside is repatriated to his family so that his spirit can finally live in peace


Endorph posted:

furthermore, jojo's is one work, by one person, that is consistent within itself.

Hey now, let's not say anything we can't take back about Jojos

Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Aug 12, 2020

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


what's that, a thin excuse to post Bob Kane's tombstone, I'll take it!



what a fuckin rear end in a top hat

Yardbomb
Jul 11, 2011

What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?



Cape comics having done so many nearly beat for beat reiterations of origin stories but with little swerves of varying levels really doesn't help people new to them either. That's not like a huge crippling problem, but it's still just a dumb pain in the rear end that's stuck in there good in the overall genre.

fun hater
May 24, 2009


batman
has become
catholic

Clip-On Fedora
Feb 20, 2011




JordanKai posted:

Crossover event comics are a scourge.

Also, I wish Marvel had stuck with either the labelled season approach (I think that lasted for literally one season, in fact) or had introduced legacy numbering much earlier and stuck with it. I'm deeply invested in comic books and which series continue into what is hard to keep up with even for me.

You'd think Marvel and DC would introduce some kind of digital almanac helping people figure out in what order to buy/read collected editions, but no such luck.

The nice thing about manga is you don't have your favorite runs with characters that you actually care about constantly getting ruined by lovely event comics crashing into them like a meteor once a loving year.

I mean, a poo poo Shonen Jump editor forcing a tournament arc on an artist is basically the same thing, but still!

Its one of the things that made me stop reading superhero comics.

Clip-On Fedora fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 12, 2020

Seemlar
Jun 17, 2002


I know how comics work and have easy access to find out information about them and still find it oppressively hard to break in let alone follow interesting things.

The X-Men recently had a line wide, really good relaunch. Part of what made it accessible is they shut down the entire slate of X-Men books and just had single story covered by two books you could follow, both starting at issue 1. Easy!

Now it's already back to reading orders and YOU ARE HERE maps



How could an average person ever hope to check out [title] when there's at least five versions of [title] running, probably competing with compiled releases of older runs as a bonus? And any given story you might even manage to break into could take a 90 degree turn at any moment and become something different because of a universe event story? Or it could just instantly look like a completely different story entirely out of nowhere because it was drawn by some filler grunt artist that month?

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


fun hater posted:

batman
has become
catholic

lmao

Roth
Jul 9, 2016



Seemlar posted:

I know how comics work and have easy access to find out information about them and still find it oppressively hard to break in let alone follow interesting things.

The X-Men recently had a line wide, really good relaunch. Part of what made it accessible is they shut down the entire slate of X-Men books and just had single story covered by two books you could follow, both starting at issue 1. Easy!

Now it's already back to reading orders and YOU ARE HERE maps



How could an average person ever hope to check out [title] when there's at least five versions of [title] running, probably competing with compiled releases of older runs as a bonus? And any given story you might even manage to break into could take a 90 degree turn at any moment and become something different because of a universe event story? Or it could just instantly look like a completely different story entirely out of nowhere because it was drawn by some filler grunt artist that month?

That's just a release schedule of X-Men related comics. You don't have to be reading New Mutants to understand what's happening in X-Force or whatever.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Seemlar posted:

I know how comics work and have easy access to find out information about them and still find it oppressively hard to break in let alone follow interesting things.

The X-Men recently had a line wide, really good relaunch. Part of what made it accessible is they shut down the entire slate of X-Men books and just had single story covered by two books you could follow, both starting at issue 1. Easy!

Now it's already back to reading orders and YOU ARE HERE maps



How could an average person ever hope to check out [title] when there's at least five versions of [title] running, probably competing with compiled releases of older runs as a bonus? And any given story you might even manage to break into could take a 90 degree turn at any moment and become something different because of a universe event story? Or it could just instantly look like a completely different story entirely out of nowhere because it was drawn by some filler grunt artist that month?

okay but as someone who has been reading the X-Men books after the relaunch, it's really not vital to read every single book being published. The individual books are still relatively self-contained and you don't really miss on anything by just picking which series has your favorite characters in it and following that.

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



Roth posted:

Actually, Thor and Daredevil are almost nothing but high quality comics for 50 years.

The ones where Daredevil pretended to be his own brother just to mess with Karen Page are terrific, although I guess you did say 50 years and not 60 years.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 2010
I am trash mon
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS


Clip-On Fedora posted:

The nice thing about manga is you don't have your favorite runs with characters that you actually care about constantly getting ruined by lovely event comics crashing into them like a meteor once a loving year.

Its one of the things that made me stop reading superhero comics.

oh look! a great run of a superhero comic that is easily-accessible to newcomers, well-written, and incredibly entertaining!
oh look! the run ended abruptly after only a few issues because the hero of it was in one page of a big crossover event, in which he died from being farted on by Galactis to convey how big the stakes were!

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






Endorph posted:

i literally do not know where to start with a lot of comic books and when i ask i get a bunch of different answers that are obviously not self-contained stories. if you ask where to start with jojo's you get told volume 1. it is linear.

furthermore, jojo's is one work, by one person, that is consistent within itself. this is not true of basically any superhero comic.

Shoot, I was gonna say that. JordsnKai just made a good video about how hard getting the Punisher correct was, and even simpler characters with less baggage and problematic elements can get screwed up: See, Heroes in Crisis.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Tom King is an aberration and cannot be excused

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


Seemlar posted:

How could an average person ever hope to check out [title] when there's at least five versions of [title] running, probably competing with compiled releases of older runs as a bonus? And any given story you might even manage to break into could take a 90 degree turn at any moment and become something different because of a universe event story? Or it could just instantly look like a completely different story entirely out of nowhere because it was drawn by some filler grunt artist that month?

Well nowadays most trade collections would put in the issues of a crossover event that'd be relevant to the story, or just ignore the crossover event if it doesn't disrupt the main story. If there's one main crossover that hops between books, they'll publish that as a single trade and you'll usually have what you need in it, with the side-adventures in the event published in connected trades separate from their ongoing series, if they're not relevant to the series itself. If you're desperate to follow along issue-by-issue with a crossover, they usually publish a reading guide like that and most events have useful annotations in the comic as it goes. If I remember right, Marvel Unlimited has a pretty clear guide on how to read events from the comics uploaded on it, if you need to.

Or you can just ignore any event that sounds dumb, like the comics themselves will.

Augus posted:

oh look! a great run of a superhero comic that is easily-accessible to newcomers, well-written, and incredibly entertaining!
oh look! the run ended abruptly after only a few issues because the hero of it was in one page of a big crossover event, in which he died from being farted on by Galactis to convey how big the stakes were!

Yes it's true, Squirrel Girl did die of typhus during Civil War 2. This was a thing that happened.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Nuns with Guns posted:

Yes it's true, Squirrel Girl did die of typhus during Civil War 2. This was a thing that happened.

its such a specific occurrence I'm sure they have plenty of examples they can provide of it happening over and over and over again

Roth
Jul 9, 2016



That's not necessarily a bad thing. If a bad writer gets a character I like and writes trash, then oh well, it'll come and go. If One Piece, Naruto, My Hero Academia, Bleach, Berserk, Jojo, or whatever goes to poo poo then that's just it for that series.

It's fine that people have reasons they don't really care for superhero comics. The event comics, changing writers/artists, lack of permanence, convoluted universes, lack of clarity on where to begin are all good reasons to not be super invested. However, I think it's fine that superhero comics don't appeal to everyone. I like a bunch of that stuff, like how there's always a feeling of finding out something new or that writers/artists reinterpret the characters in so many different ways. Al Ewing's been writing a Hulk that's basically a horror series now and playing up the body horror of being the Hulk, and it's really cool. The next guy that writes Hulk could be trash, but there will be others that take over eventually as well. I think people should just realize that following superhero comics just aren't their kind of thing, and that doesn't mean there's something horrifically wrong with them that needs to be fixed.

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005

Try reading some manga!

I buy Steam inventories, add me if interested!




Clever Betty

Yardbomb posted:

The extreme ease of which you can immediately find multiple good sites via simple searches that host high quality scans of clearly ordered manga does it untold favors in getting people into them.
it's interesting to see the weird equilibrium manga companies have unofficially reached with manga scan sites. I'm sure they would prefer people pay for the stuff, but when you have like, Komi-san with nearly eight million logged chapter reads and a high user rating, it's very useful in finding series to license officially which is then linked to on the mangadex page itself. I've definitely purchased a few series in their entirety once they were localized because of this ease of purchase.

Clip-On Fedora
Feb 20, 2011




Augus posted:

oh look! a great run of a superhero comic that is easily-accessible to newcomers, well-written, and incredibly entertaining!
oh look! the run ended abruptly after only a few issues because the hero of it was in one page of a big crossover event, in which he died from being farted on by Galactis to convey how big the stakes were!

Ah, but don't worry friends!

Your favorite hero is getting brought back!

As an evil zombie that wears lots of leather and likes getting stepped on!

What?! You don't like that? Then it was meta commentary making fun of unreasonable fans just like you who can never be pleased!

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



Alaois posted:

its such a specific occurrence I'm sure they have plenty of examples they can provide of it happening over and over and over again

Grant Morrison made a well-regarded comic about an international batman franchise that was canned after a year because dc needed to reset their comics universe. There was a well-regraded series about police in a mutant neighborhood in marvel comics that was abruptly ended because of a big crossover that killed most of the mutant characters. There was a really good run on Fantastic Four in the mid-90s that ended after a few issues because Rob Liefeld or somebody wanted to redo the origin of the Fantastic Four in another continuity where it was just them and Captain America.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


man, remember Bleach.

they didn't even let that poo poo come to an end, i'm pretty sure they figured that Kubo was just using that poo poo as welfare by that point

Roth
Jul 9, 2016



Antifa Turkeesian posted:

The ones where Daredevil pretended to be his own brother just to mess with Karen Page are terrific, although I guess you did say 50 years and not 60 years.

IronicDongz
Aug 18, 2013

there he goes

Alaois posted:

man, remember Bleach.
I wish I didn't

Roth
Jul 9, 2016



Bleach is great because there's a part where Kenpachi gets a power up by using Kendo

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 2010
I am trash mon
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS


bleach peaked with the first OP, it was all downhill from there

Clip-On Fedora
Feb 20, 2011




Kubo Tite needed a writer.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Augus posted:

bleach peaked with the first OP, it was all downhill from there

a little while back I just watched the first episode of the Bleach anime on Netflix so i could get that OP again and then just stopped after the episode was over

Antifa Turkeesian posted:

Grant Morrison made a well-regarded comic about an international batman franchise that was canned after a year because dc needed to reset their comics universe. There was a well-regraded series about police in a mutant neighborhood in marvel comics that was abruptly ended because of a big crossover that killed most of the mutant characters. There was a really good run on Fantastic Four in the mid-90s that ended after a few issues because Rob Liefeld or somebody wanted to redo the origin of the Fantastic Four in another continuity where it was just them and Captain America.

none of the things you mentioned were crossovers. not even House of M.

Sydin
Oct 29, 2011

Another rainy day commute





Alaois posted:

man, remember Bleach.

IronicDongz posted:

I wish I didn't

Clip-On Fedora
Feb 20, 2011




Alaois posted:


none of the things you mentioned were crossovers. not even House of M.

They are events though.

Like Avengers Arena, where teen superheroes gotta die die die because Battle Royale! Hope you didn't like any comics they were in!

Clip-On Fedora fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Aug 12, 2020

IronicDongz
Aug 18, 2013

there he goes

Augus posted:

bleach peaked with the first OP, it was all downhill from there
bleach didn't deserve asterisk

also people say that the soul society arc was the peak of bleach but actually the peak was the start in the modern world where ichigo's personality is the most defined and there's an actual difference between living people and spirits and death means something(the spirit world being full of 'spirits' who all eat and breath and die and are essentially just regular humans, just in fantasy feudal japan, sucks really bad)

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


IronicDongz posted:

bleach didn't deserve asterisk

also people say that the soul society arc was the peak of bleach but actually the peak was the start in the modern world where ichigo's personality is the most defined and there's an actual difference between living people and spirits and death means something(the spirit world being full of 'spirits' who all eat and breath and die and are essentially just regular humans, just in fantasy feudal japan, sucks really bad)

Bleach was really cool to me until i saw all the ghost world poo poo then it immediately stopped being cool

Antifa Turkeesian
Aug 20, 2006



Alaois posted:

none of the things you mentioned were crossovers. not even House of M.

This seems like kind of a fine distinction to make when we’re talking about well-regraded things ending because of events happening in other comics. Didn’t the Fantastic Four have to go to Liefeld World to save the Earth from a ghost that possessed Professor X?

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Antifa Turkeesian posted:

This seems like kind of a fine distinction to make when we’re talking about well-regraded things ending because of events happening in other comics. Didn’t the Fantastic Four have to go to Liefeld World to save the Earth from a ghost that possessed Professor X?

man late 90s Marvel was a loving trainwreck, dude, sales were all the way through the bottom of the toilet and bringing back Liefeld was a desperation hail mary. I don't know if I can lay the cancellation of any books at his feet specifically when they were all probably running in the red

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

....?


Antifa Turkeesian posted:

Grant Morrison made a well-regarded comic about an international batman franchise that was canned after a year because dc needed to reset their comics universe. There was a well-regraded series about police in a mutant neighborhood in marvel comics that was abruptly ended because of a big crossover that killed most of the mutant characters. There was a really good run on Fantastic Four in the mid-90s that ended after a few issues because Rob Liefeld or somebody wanted to redo the origin of the Fantastic Four in another continuity where it was just them and Captain America.

Grant Morrison's Batman run continued even after DC editorial was compelled by some higher corporate authority to reset the DC universe with the nu52. Him and Geoff John's Green Lantern were specifically in some nega zone where nobody could tell how much of the prior series were still canon because the assumed timeline had compressed so far down. It was bad, but that was totally because of bizarre corporate fuckery on an unpredictable level nobody had time to plan for.

The Decimation also didn't kill off the mutants, it just depowered them. District X got a respectable 19-issue run, but being a niche thing going for that long I imagine the sales figures were slipping. X-Factor was fine taking up shop in depowered Mutant Town right after the Decimation and had a pretty long-running series out of that.

Heroes Reborn was a catastrophe born out of Marvel's desperate bid to emerge from bankruptcy mostly intact and I don't think a single person would defend it. Unless you mean some other embarrassing decision of 90s Marvel Editorial?

e-

Clip-On Fedora posted:

Like Avengers Arena, where teen superheroes gotta die die die because Battle Royale! Hope you didn't like any comics they were in!

Marvel and DC treat their tertiary teen superheroes like fresh lambs to slaughter in events, which is hosed, yes, but those aren't teen heroes headlining well-received solo series or the leads on team books.

Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Aug 12, 2020

SpiritualDeath
Jul 2, 2009

shaping your brain like pottery

Alaois posted:

it's just impossible to ever know where to start reading Love & Rockets.
Seventh Dream of Teenage Heaven is your best bet

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bobjr
Oct 16, 2012

Roose is loose.



My favorite Bleach moment was when Kubo announced the year of Chad then never had Chad really show up or do anything

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