Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
TheMaestroso
Nov 4, 2014

I must know your secrets.

sexpig by night posted:

no, it wasn't. General 'the blacks just aren't as enlightened'? Sure, but no literal 'they're fuckin ape people not actual humans like us' was really super out of vogue.

I'm pretty sure you're gonna get diabetes from sugar-coating it that much, dude

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


Darth Walrus posted:

Mind you, some of this is because his particular, bizarre version of racial theory was very accommodating to certain minorities being One Of The Good Ones. Some of this was because he held race to be highly temporary (basically, he thought evolution happened much, much faster than it actually does), and some of it was because unlike Lovecraft, he wasn’t a big fan of ‘civilisation’, which he saw as breeding corruption and weakness, just as ‘savagery’ made people crude and bestial. Instead, he liked the golden mean of strong, vital ‘barbarism’, frontier nations that did not forsake culture, but kept themselves strong through hardship and conflict. So if, say, he met a black person he liked, then he could consider them a barbarian who showed that there was still hope for black people to rise above their present savagery.

If he’d lived longer, he would probably have had very strong opinions on Israel.

yeah, he was a weird dude who was a giant super mothers boy taken to an extreme.

Gertrude Perkins
May 1, 2010

Gun Snake

dont talk to gun snake

Drops: human teeth



And it's genuinely lovely! In-depth, charming and full of information. I learned a few things!

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Arcsquad12 posted:

Waspinator is the best henchman constantly getting abused Decepticon/Predacon

Its funny that Waspinator started out as a Management-mandated character despised by the writers, but by the end of season 1 they were fighting to KEEP him in over Terrorsaur and Scorpinok.

Wassspinator live to suffer for rest of show.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


Neddy Seagoon posted:

Its funny that Waspinator started out as a Management-mandated character despised by the writers, but by the end of season 1 they were fighting to KEEP him in over Terrorsaur and Scorpinok.

Wassspinator live to suffer for rest of show.

didnt they introduce some new character only to kill them off like an episode later because they wernt sure if the toy would be for sale.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


Waspinator can't die. Waspinator has plans.

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


Ghostlight posted:

A lot of people are more familiar with the breadth of work based on Lovecraft and bearing his name than on his works themselves, and also a sizable contingent of his direct fans deny the depth of his racism to the degree that one of the invited speakers to NecronomiCON pulled out based on the presence of another speaker who had years previously put forward a motion to remove Lovecraft's image from an award due to the racist content of his writings.

True, but once you know the name, your only 1 or 2 links away from a "top 10 most racist lovecraft stories".

I don't think the difference is in how racist he was, because everyone agrees HP Lovecraft was racist, it's more how mad should you be that HP Lovecraft was racist and I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be mad at all. He's a product of the system of white supremacy and not an active contributor unlike many other men of his time who still have there names on rewards, money, theme parks, monuments, etc.

Linear Zoetrope
Nov 28, 2011

A hero must cook

OmanyteJackson posted:

True, but once you know the name, your only 1 or 2 links away from a "top 10 most racist lovecraft stories".

I don't think the difference is in how racist he was, because everyone agrees HP Lovecraft was racist, it's more how mad should you be that HP Lovecraft was racist and I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be mad at all. He's a product of the system of white supremacy and not an active contributor unlike many other men of his time who still have there names on rewards, money, theme parks, monuments, etc.

I'm not mad per se, but it colors his work in a way that just being kind of racist in your personal life doesn't. Like, it's hard to miss the blatantness of it when reading any of it, which is a bit unfortunate. I can stomach it enough to enjoy the parts I enjoy, in small doses at least, but I don't blame anyone who can't.

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


Hot take: Walt Disney has done more lasting harm to lgbtq, woman, and minorities than HP Lovecraft.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




It is worth noting that Lovecraft was, as I remember, the only Hitler-supporter in Weird Tales’s stable, although that was probably only because Howard thought Celts were a superior race to Saxons.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Excuse me Howard thought the Jews were cool warrior guys subverted by the evils of Roman/European decadence. Get it right fam.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Terrible Opinions posted:

Excuse me Howard thought the Jews were cool warrior guys subverted by the evils of Roman/European decadence. Get it right fam.

He was also a big fan of Celts, though (it’s really common in his work), and let’s just say that he offers a lot of ambiguity about whether the ‘Shemites’ are more corrupted or corrupters. Like, heroic Shemites exist, but they really are his go-to evil civilised race.

BigRed0427
Mar 22, 2007

There's no one I'd rather be than me.



Wait, is H.Bomb being queer news or did I miss something a while back?

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Dapper_Swindler posted:

didnt they introduce some new character only to kill them off like an episode later because they wernt sure if the toy would be for sale.

I THINK that was Tigerhawk? He lasted all of about 3 episodes.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Hbomb mentioned being bi on curiouscat or somesuch a few months back, maybe a year?

FoldableHuman
Mar 26, 2017

I WILL CRY IRL TEARS IF YOU DON'T LISTEN TO THE PODCAST OF A SEX PEST

Puppy Time posted:

I mean, that is literally a common attitude of the time, so it's not really going against the "product of his time" argument.

One of the things that I wanted Bomberguy to go into more detail about is how Lovecraft wasn't just "a product of his time" but was actually absurdly racist even by the standards of the absurdly racist time he lived in. Like, Jim Crow, Birth of a Nation, KKK-revival America looked at Lovecraft and went "whoah, that dude is pretty racist."

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me





OmanyteJackson posted:

True, but once you know the name, your only 1 or 2 links away from a "top 10 most racist lovecraft stories".

I don't think the difference is in how racist he was, because everyone agrees HP Lovecraft was racist, it's more how mad should you be that HP Lovecraft was racist and I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't be mad at all. He's a product of the system of white supremacy and not an active contributor unlike many other men of his time who still have there names on rewards, money, theme parks, monuments, etc.
Being a hugely influential artist actually does make him an "active contributor", whether or not he was a product of the "system of white supremacy" (we are all products of our environment, but that does not absolve any of us from ever becoming more than our environment) because his art, infused with his essential beliefs, retains a large cultural influence not just directly but through the subsequent art it inspired and the art inspired by that, all drawing consciously or unconsciously on those themes he used for such radical dehumanisation which in turn create those connections in the consumers of it. Culture consumes and creates itself - his horror work resonated because of the depth of its audience's fear of the unknown it drew on, but art does not stand in isolation. Its resonance may not be with a modern audience's agreement with the author that other races are subhuman, but in consumption they transfer those own ideas to the expression of their own fears that may be of other cultures, other religions, other genders, other beings, and they in turn use that same metaphoric lens to cast these as the cosmic horrors lurking on the fringes of society that debase or end humanity itself that Lovecraft cast his racism in. Lovecraft's poor town of Innsmouth whose leaders knowingly delivered it into unnatural (Polynesian) practices, leading to the physical debasement of its people through interbreeding, is Icke's reptilian conspiracy.

His work has meaning because we fear the unknown, but we will never accept the unknown while we tell ourselves stories about how unacceptable it is.

Also, as a hugely influential artist, he does in fact still have his name on literary awards and monuments.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


Darth Walrus posted:

Mind you, some of this is because his particular, bizarre version of racial theory was very accommodating to certain minorities being One Of The Good Ones. Some of this was because he held race to be highly temporary (basically, he thought evolution happened much, much faster than it actually does), and some of it was because unlike Lovecraft, he wasn’t a big fan of ‘civilisation’, which he saw as breeding corruption and weakness, just as ‘savagery’ made people crude and bestial. Instead, he liked the golden mean of strong, vital ‘barbarism’, frontier nations that did not forsake culture, but kept themselves strong through hardship and conflict. So if, say, he met a black person he liked, then he could consider them a barbarian who showed that there was still hope for black people to rise above their present savagery.

If he’d lived longer, he would probably have had very strong opinions on Israel.

Yeeeea that is an important caveat. He was super far from 'enlightened' about stuff still, it was just more that he was willing to go 'well yea but just because he's black doesn't mean he HAS to be some kinda backwards savage' which, like, for the time considering he was from small town texas and all, that did put him above the guys going 'nah man they're all fuckin animals' but...yea he never exactly had a 'see the light' moment, he was just more open to individuals than someone like, say, Lovecraft was.

His views on 'civilization' also made him very unique in the 'spooky outsiders are evil' crowd, yea. He very much had no respect for 'modernity' as some example of how the people in charge are so much more evolved which is interesting. Conan became very much a unique kinda thing even if it was built on very problematic blocks. You can get the same kinda Lovecraft stuff from other horror writers ( whoo whoo whoo hot take alert Lovecraft's uniqueness mainly came to him giving names to what other horror writers just described and most of the ~mythos~ that we love so much was an afterthought or came from non-HP sources.) but Conan honestly is a kinda unique take on its genre of pulpy low magic fantasy and all just because Howard was a WEIRD dude even among weird writers.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

I'm the babyliberal, gotta love me!


Mr.Radar posted:

H. Bomb has a new video about HP Lovecraft, a somewhat obscure 2008 adaptation of The Shadow over Innsmouth, and a journey of personal discovery:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8u8wZ0WvxI

Really, really good stuff.

Darth Walrus posted:

Mind you, some of this is because his particular, bizarre version of racial theory was very accommodating to certain minorities being One Of The Good Ones. Some of this was because he held race to be highly temporary (basically, he thought evolution happened much, much faster than it actually does), and some of it was because unlike Lovecraft, he wasn’t a big fan of ‘civilisation’, which he saw as breeding corruption and weakness, just as ‘savagery’ made people crude and bestial. Instead, he liked the golden mean of strong, vital ‘barbarism’, frontier nations that did not forsake culture, but kept themselves strong through hardship and conflict. So if, say, he met a black person he liked, then he could consider them a barbarian who showed that there was still hope for black people to rise above their present savagery.

If he’d lived longer, he would probably have had very strong opinions on Israel.

Civilization being decadent was one of the many tropes of real life Nazism. He, himself, was hella racial theory racist. You can see it in his Conan work, but it really stands out in, say, his Solomon Kane in Africa stories.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


FoldableHuman posted:

One of the things that I wanted Bomberguy to go into more detail about is how Lovecraft wasn't just "a product of his time" but was actually absurdly racist even by the standards of the absurdly racist time he lived in. Like, Jim Crow, Birth of a Nation, KKK-revival America looked at Lovecraft and went "whoah, that dude is pretty racist."

pretty much. while people like howard were more of "product of their time" with weird twists. Lovecraft was weirdo who basicaly thought anyone who wasn't a aristocratic inbred WASP was a subhuman.

sexpig by night posted:

Yeeeea that is an important caveat. He was super far from 'enlightened' about stuff still, it was just more that he was willing to go 'well yea but just because he's black doesn't mean he HAS to be some kinda backwards savage' which, like, for the time considering he was from small town texas and all, that did put him above the guys going 'nah man they're all fuckin animals' but...yea he never exactly had a 'see the light' moment, he was just more open to individuals than someone like, say, Lovecraft was.

His views on 'civilization' also made him very unique in the 'spooky outsiders are evil' crowd, yea. He very much had no respect for 'modernity' as some example of how the people in charge are so much more evolved which is interesting. Conan became very much a unique kinda thing even if it was built on very problematic blocks. You can get the same kinda Lovecraft stuff from other horror writers ( whoo whoo whoo hot take alert Lovecraft's uniqueness mainly came to him giving names to what other horror writers just described and most of the ~mythos~ that we love so much was an afterthought or came from non-HP sources.) but Conan honestly is a kinda unique take on its genre of pulpy low magic fantasy and all just because Howard was a WEIRD dude even among weird writers.

this. i'll take howard fun conan/kane pulpy adventure romps over weird dickheads paranoid poo poo over "lesser Europeans" "mixing". i like some of lovecrafts stories but give me KROM anyday.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


Ok to be fair 'civilization robs man of a certain element and we must decide if that is a price we're willing to pay for safety and enlightenment' is way older than fascism's grabbing it and going "YEA THE JEWS ARE MAKING YOU INTO QUEERS GO INTO THE MOUNTAINS AND SHOOT AN ELK"

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


I will not defend Solomon Kane's African Race Theory Tour tho yea that was just hosed up

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


sexpig by night posted:

I will not defend Solomon Kane's African Race Theory Tour tho yea that was just hosed up

yeah, pretty much. but i always picture kane sounding like victor saltzpyre from the vermintide games which kinda works in a sad way.

Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Jul 4, 2018

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Absurd Alhazred posted:

Really, really good stuff.


Civilization being decadent was one of the many tropes of real life Nazism. He, himself, was hella racial theory racist. You can see it in his Conan work, but it really stands out in, say, his Solomon Kane in Africa stories.

I mean, yeah, his whole thing was a particular sort of protofascism that didn’t end up having space in it for the Nazis when they arose. So his extolling of conflict being a vitalising force meant that he didn’t believe that the existence of barbarians among savages (or civilised people, but mostly savages) meant savages should be spared - instead, it meant that savages should be slaughtered until their corruption was pared away and their pure barbarian essence was all that remained.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 4 days!


Skull in the Stars is pretty legit, though, mainly because Solomon's weird puritan rear end stays in England through all of it and just fights...ghosts I think? He deals with Spooky Swamp poo poo and it's cool.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


Darth Walrus posted:

I mean, yeah, his whole thing was a particular sort of protofascism that didn’t end up having space in it for the Nazis when they arose. So his extolling of conflict being a vitalising force meant that he didn’t believe that the existence of barbarians among savages (or civilised people, but mostly savages) meant savages should be spared - instead, it meant that savages should be slaughtered until their corruption was pared away and their pure barbarian essence was all that remained.

pretty much. the dude never moved away from his parents and had so much of a oedipal complex that he topped himself in the driveway when his mom died. i always find it interesting that these are the types of dudes who have the "super mans man barbarian savior race" beliefs.

that being said, his views got better later in life, plus he was pretty forward with his views on women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chara...obert_E._Howard

Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Jul 4, 2018

Thompsons
Aug 28, 2008

Ask me about onklunk extraction.

hahaha christ Dan where do you find this poo poo

https://twitter.com/FoldableHuman/s...277582181679104

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


Thompsons posted:

hahaha christ Dan where do you find this poo poo

https://twitter.com/FoldableHuman/s...277582181679104

i am amused how these morons just double down in their dumb awful bullshit. its sad.

Solitair
Feb 18, 2014

This statement is a lie!


FoldableHuman posted:

One of the things that I wanted Bomberguy to go into more detail about is how Lovecraft wasn't just "a product of his time" but was actually absurdly racist even by the standards of the absurdly racist time he lived in. Like, Jim Crow, Birth of a Nation, KKK-revival America looked at Lovecraft and went "whoah, that dude is pretty racist."

Birth of the Nation also got called out as racist when it came out by people like Jane Addams and Booker T. Washington. The conversation around the movie was hilariously similar to similar conversations on race to happen today, complete with D.W. Griffith publishing a pamphlet alleging that his right to free speech was under attack.

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


Linear Zoetrope posted:

I'm not mad per se, but it colors his work in a way that just being kind of racist in your personal life doesn't. Like, it's hard to miss the blatantness of it when reading any of it, which is a bit unfortunate. I can stomach it enough to enjoy the parts I enjoy, in small doses at least, but I don't blame anyone who can't.

I've grown up in a time where racism was only been expressed in innuendo and it was never controversial. It was only when what was assumed was said plainly that the broader population reacted.

I'm not saying that anyone is wrong for not liking Lovecraft's work for whatever reason, but maybe investigate where you draw the line because the most toxic racist ideas are the ones that escape scrutiny because of decorum.

Ghostlight posted:

Being a hugely influential artist actually does make him an "active contributor", whether or not he was a product of the "system of white supremacy" (we are all products of our environment, but that does not absolve any of us from ever becoming more than our environment) because his art, infused with his essential beliefs, retains a large cultural influence not just directly but through the subsequent art it inspired and the art inspired by that, all drawing consciously or unconsciously on those themes he used for such radical dehumanisation which in turn create those connections in the consumers of it.

Influential, sure, but hugely? Can you really say HP Lovecraft's work, not even his racism, has influenced a single law or policy? Has anything by or influenced by Lovecraft inspired any harm to any marginalized group? Where are the Randians but for lovecraft?

Also, what? Inspiration isn't a copy machine. Artist pick and choose themes of media that resonate with them and explore it. its how vampires went from scary foreigners to sexy teens, It's how the Creature of the Black Lagoon inspired the Shape of Water. It's how Shadow Over Innsmouth inspired Cthulhu from the HBomb vid that was just posted. The entire history of loving batman.

Conal Cochran
Dec 1, 2013



This may seem weirdly specific, but does anyone know of any channels that cover gamebooks like Choose Your Own Adventure, and Give Yourself Goosebumps?

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Solitair posted:

Birth of the Nation also got called out as racist when it came out by people like Jane Addams and Booker T. Washington. The conversation around the movie was hilariously similar to similar conversations on race to happen today, complete with D.W. Griffith publishing a pamphlet alleging that his right to free speech was under attack.

D.W. Griffith's Intolerance was literally made as a response to critics who called him racist for Birth of a Nation, saying "how dare you be so intolerant of me and my ideas."

englerp
Oct 13, 2011


Ghostlight posted:

A lot of people are more familiar with the breadth of work based on Lovecraft and bearing his name than on his works themselves, and also a sizable contingent of his direct fans deny the depth of his racism to the degree that one of the invited speakers to NecronomiCON pulled out based on the presence of another speaker who had years previously put forward a motion to remove Lovecraft's image from an award due to the racist content of his writings.

Hmm, i got the impression that Lovecrafts fans have no problem admitting that he was super racist. I could be wrong of course.

Personally, i kind of prefer the derivatives of Lovecraft's work like Stross' "A colder war" or the Laundry series to his works. Or that Gaiman story about Moriarty.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

I'm the babyliberal, gotta love me!


englerp posted:

Hmm, i got the impression that Lovecrafts fans have no problem admitting that he was super racist. I could be wrong of course.

Personally, i kind of prefer the derivatives of Lovecraft's work like Stross' "A colder war" or the Laundry series to his works. Or that Gaiman story about Moriarty.

A Study in Emerald is good. It's available on Gaiman's website for free. His Shoggoth's Old Peculiar is also pretty good.

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me





OmanyteJackson posted:

Influential, sure, but hugely? Can you really say HP Lovecraft's work, not even his racism, has influenced a single law or policy? Has anything by or influenced by Lovecraft inspired any harm to any marginalized group? Where are the Randians but for lovecraft?
Can you say it has not? Because in my response to you I explicitly draw a line from Lovecraft to Icke, a man whose cultural output has, I believe, unarguably influenced political discourse, therefore politicians, thereon laws and policies through the euphemistic reframing of racism.

OmanyteJackson posted:

Also, what? Inspiration isn't a copy machine. Artist pick and choose themes of media that resonate with them and explore it. its how vampires went from scary foreigners to sexy teens, It's how the Creature of the Black Lagoon inspired the Shape of Water. It's how Shadow Over Innsmouth inspired Cthulhu from the HBomb vid that was just posted. The entire history of loving batman.
I took HBomb's new resonance for Cthulhu's to be not because it mysteriously became more like Shadow Over Innsmouth, but that it was always like Shadow Over Innsmouth, yet the horror is framed to the perspective of the other. In it, the fish-people are not the other, not the unnatural beastmen crawling into society, they are the society to which the gay man has been consigned. It started to resonate because his experiences changed his perspective enough to understand that was why it spent so long focusing on a seemingly inconsequential gay subplot. Similarly, Shape of Water is a reframing so that the other is not a horrifying fish-man trying to kidnap a decent white woman for a bride, but is a captive of our society who finds companionship in another other from within that society with the reveal at the end demonstrating that she was only ever other within the restrictive framework of the movie's mid-20th century society. These are both examples of films in which the other is positioned to not be the object of horror; they are intentional refutations of the perspectives and ideas and themes of the original, but they are very significantly in the minority of the inspired works they exist alongside, similarly so with stories about the Batman that reframe his heroic struggle to fight crime in Gotham City to be that of just a privileged man of means sport-fighting his way across a cityscape without ever seeking to effect any real change in his society that may erode the necessity of his existence.
At no point was I making the case that inspiration is simply copying. These works all share the same essential themes of their inspiration, and just like someone may watch Creature From the Black Lagoon and see themselves in its fish-man, desperately trying to find companionship in a society that rejects them, and in turn make a film in which they do; someone may watch Shape of Water and believe that in fact not only does the fish-man not belong in society, but maybe suspicious mutes shouldn't either.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


GeekGroup has a follow-up video to their Stegosaurus episode of Your Dinosaurs Are Wrong.

It's really cool to see how skeleton mountings change over time to better match current scientific discoveries.

Solitair
Feb 18, 2014

This statement is a lie!


englerp posted:

Personally, i kind of prefer the derivatives of Lovecraft's work like Stross' "A colder war" or the Laundry series to his works. Or that Gaiman story about Moriarty.

I adore stories that actively revise Lovecraft's work and rebut its problematic elements, like Ruthanna Emrys's "The Litany of Earth", Victor LaValle's The Ballad of Black Tom, and Kij Johnson's The Dream-Quest of Vellitt Boe.

Puppy Time
Mar 1, 2005



englerp posted:

Hmm, i got the impression that Lovecrafts fans have no problem admitting that he was super racist. I could be wrong of course.

Depends on the fans. There's still a general idea of "if I just don't acknowledge race existing, then nothing is racist and everything is fine!" still floating around from the time when we were convinced that Being Colorblind was the way to Solve Racism Forever. (Just in the current cultural climate that's a lot harder to maintain.) So of course there's going to be fans of the mythos/setting who get all "No no no don't bring reality politics into my fun squid monster stories!" here and there.

There's also the fans who will give a token "yeah, he was racist" but then want to pretend like it wasn't baked into a large swath of his stories or something.

Turns out, a lot of people struggle with "I like this thing, but it's got some serious inherent problems" and would rather avoid wrestling with the philosophical quagmire that is "how can I still like this thing when the creator is a garbage human whose attitudes are built in?" It can feel a lot like the only answer is "Completely abandon this thing you like, that may have given meaning to your life, because it has Bad Things," especially if you're not really experienced with the nuance of "basically everything is #problematic and the best you can hope for is to kind of mitigate some of it sometimes."


FoldableHuman posted:

One of the things that I wanted Bomberguy to go into more detail about is how Lovecraft wasn't just "a product of his time" but was actually absurdly racist even by the standards of the absurdly racist time he lived in. Like, Jim Crow, Birth of a Nation, KKK-revival America looked at Lovecraft and went "whoah, that dude is pretty racist."

Yeah, deffo, just... those particular cited attitudes were not that extreme at the time.

Dragonatrix
Aug 16, 2009

You have offended STRINGIE! You must be punished!


BigRed0427 posted:

Wait, is H.Bomb being queer news or did I miss something a while back?

It sort of came up in the Sherlock review during the bit about Moriarty. It wasn't explicit, though.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

khwarezm
Oct 26, 2010

Deal with it.

Solitair posted:

Birth of the Nation also got called out as racist when it came out by people like Jane Addams and Booker T. Washington. The conversation around the movie was hilariously similar to similar conversations on race to happen today, complete with D.W. Griffith publishing a pamphlet alleging that his right to free speech was under attack.

Like, it's very frustrating when people resort to the 'product of their time' concerning things like Birth of the Nation and, yes, Lovecraft, because that implies they were neutrally reflecting viewpoints that were totally solidified into society at the time.

The truth is that the 1910s and 1920s could actually be described as a really bad degenerative period when it came to race in America, and a lot of that was deliberately stoked by people who full well knew exactly what they were doing, BotN is a prime example of that and is just a really good argument in general about the potentially dangerous effects of popular art, the film's glorification of the KKK and demonization of African Americans was extremely important in reviving the Klan in that period, not to mention the acclaim it got from people like Woodrow Wilson. This was the period when the lost cause mythos was at it's peak because of stuff like BotN, interestingly most monuments concerning Confederate figures were erected in the 1910s and 1920s, politicians like Wilson managed to expand segregation, the Klan was at it's absolute peak as a normalized element of society and Jim Crow was resolutely established in the South. All the while you had activists and intellectuals like Dubois or Washington trying to push back but to no avail, people were fully aware about the nature of the system, they just didn't care.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply