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Bakeneko
Jan 9, 2007



Jimbot posted:

It's most likely, as all those hot takes are, just an allergic reaction to an overwhelmingly white cast of characters being diversely represented. Black Canary, in this case, is represented as a character by her whiteness and blondness. All other characteristics are secondary.

Considering those attributes are super duper rare in comics, I can see why she's upset that one minority is being pushed aside from the SJW forced-diversity agenda.

Except she's not upset about that, unless she's changed her mind in the time since she posted that tweet I linked. She outright calls changing Black Canary's race "not only a great idea, but probably necessary".

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CYBEReris
Dec 15, 2007



Bakeneko posted:

And how many superhero stories have their been in which the hero started out ordinary, then went out and actively worked to gain their superpowers? Not many. Even characters like Batman and Iron Man who don’t have powers are still wealthy geniuses who can only do what they do because of who they are. It’s far more likely for villains to be entirely self-made, however, sometimes explicitly because they’re jealous of the heroes.

There's Midoriya in My Hero Academia, who sorta turns the formula on its head because he's a normal kid in a world where the majority of people are superhuman, who gets the opportunity to become like them but has to work like ten to twenty times harder to reach their level and prevent his new powers from permanently ravaging his body.

Bakeneko
Jan 9, 2007



CYBEReris posted:

There's Midoriya in My Hero Academia, who sorta turns the formula on its head because he's a normal kid in a world where the majority of people are superhuman, who gets the opportunity to become like them but has to work like ten to twenty times harder to reach their level and prevent his new powers from permanently ravaging his body.

He’s what I would call a borderline example. He was brave even without his quirk and he puts a lot of effort into mastering it, but he also had the incredible good fortune of being in the right place at the right time when world’s greatest hero was looking for a successor.

That’s not to say I don’t like the show, though. I actually think it does a lot more than most media of its type to really explore the unfairness inherent in a world where people have different abilities. Like the guy with mind-control powers who people are afraid of because of his quirk seems “villainous”, but he wants to be a hero anyway.

CYBEReris
Dec 15, 2007



Bakeneko posted:

He’s what I would call a borderline example. He was brave even without his quirk and he puts a lot of effort into mastering it, but he also had the incredible good fortune of being in the right place at the right time when world’s greatest hero was looking for a successor.

That’s not to say I don’t like the show, though. I actually think it does a lot more than most media of its type to really explore the unfairness inherent in a world where people have different abilities. Like the guy with mind-control powers who people are afraid of because of his quirk seems “villainous”, but he wants to be a hero anyway.

On some level he was definitely lucky but it ultimately involved making a conscious (if reflexive) choice to put himself at risk against phenomenal odds for an impossibly small chance of making a difference. If he hadn't made that move of his own will none of the following events would have occurred.

Inspector Gesicht
Oct 26, 2012

500 Zeus a body.




Snake from Metal Gear is a character that is special because of their origin, but becomes special through his actions. He's a genetically-engineered badass super-soldier, but he's also a pawn of the Illuminati/NWO/Quakers with an inbuilt expiry-date who can't maintain any lasting romantic relationships. He was dealt a bad hand to begin with, but what actually makes him special is his commitment towards heroism using his soldier skill.

I do think the message of how "One's genes doesn't determine their fate" comes across as awkward when the likes of Liquid are assassinated specifically due to their genes.

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me





Puppy Time posted:

I'm assuming he means "cool" in the sense of "that sounds like an interesting idea for a setting, with a lot of potential for engaging play and imagery."

Puppy Time posted:

WRT the ... statement, it was vaguely worded enough that I'm really not surprised it got taken in a way the guy didn't intend.

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me





Bakeneko posted:

Except she's not upset about that, unless she's changed her mind in the time since she posted that tweet I linked. She outright calls changing Black Canary's race "not only a great idea, but probably necessary".
Maybe she's just a comics purist and knows that if you have 'Black' in your superhero name you need to be of colour.

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006



Inspector Gesicht posted:

Snake from Metal Gear is a character that is special because of their origin, but becomes special through his actions. He's a genetically-engineered badass super-soldier, but he's also a pawn of the Illuminati/NWO/Quakers with an inbuilt expiry-date who can't maintain any lasting romantic relationships. He was dealt a bad hand to begin with, but what actually makes him special is his commitment towards heroism using his soldier skill.

I do think the message of how "One's genes doesn't determine their fate" comes across as awkward when the likes of Liquid are assassinated specifically due to their genes.

But Solid Snake also had the FoxDie virus, so why didn't he die?

I guess MGS4 still muddles it the message.

1-800-DOCTORB
Nov 5, 2009


Detective No. 27 posted:

But Solid Snake also had the FoxDie virus, so why didn't he die?

I guess MGS4 still muddles it the message.

Nanomachines, son.

MelvinBison
Nov 17, 2012

"Is this the ideal world that you envisioned?"
"I guess you could say that."



Pillbug

Bakeneko posted:

And how many superhero stories have their been in which the hero started out ordinary, then went out and actively worked to gain their superpowers? Not many. Even characters like Batman and Iron Man who don’t have powers are still wealthy geniuses who can only do what they do because of who they are. It’s far more likely for villains to be entirely self-made, however, sometimes explicitly because they’re jealous of the heroes.
One Punch Man.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


Inspector Gesicht posted:

I picture Benedict Wong doing his sicilian-mobster voice from Prey for his new role as a bulldog: " We're going to make things right, Tramp, just like old times."

wait, that was him? heh, i never knew that. i knew i sorta recognized the voice.


Detective No. 27 posted:

But Solid Snake also had the FoxDie virus, so why didn't he die?

I guess MGS4 still muddles it the message.

it does, its just a ton slower because plot or something. its why he has werner's syndrome. he is gonna kill himself because he thinks he is carrier and fox die will spread. it ends up that he isn't. its implied he dies a couple years after 4.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


Bakeneko posted:

I had no idea who this particular person was, so I’m not familiar with everything she’s ever said, but after doing a little research it doesn’t seem like she’s using racebending as an insult. According to this recent tweet of hers, she’s very supportive of the idea in relation to a different film.


This is great. If I was to name my single least favorite trope in all of fiction, it would be the concept of “special people are born special and everyone else should just know their place”. Particularly since it’s so common throughout fantasy and especially the superhero genre.

Even as a little kid, this was enough to make me intensely dislike Harry Potter for the way in which the narrative constantly puts down non-wizards. Rowling obviously intended for the reader to have some sympathy for them because Voldemort and his followers hate them, and that’s portrayed as a bad thing, but even the good wizards tend to be extremely condescending, like the muggles are some sort of exotic animal species to be studied and protected.


thats kinda why i liked the beast movie over the harry potter movies(and i don't really care for the universe either, for various reasons, some that you mentioned and also just people who use it as personality trait.) Newt is just a possibly autistic Magical herper who loves animals a bunch and reminds me a bunch of my girlfriend. it also shows the wizarding world as kinda of lovely backward place. plus the american wizard cops are as trigger happy as real life cops.

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


DrVenkman posted:

She describes it as the SJW version of the story and points out how an English bulldog is now being voiced by Benedict Wong.

By the way, Benedict Wong is English.

https://twitter.com/shannytyrelle93...533749271126016

I don't think i would go so far as call it offensive but it's kinda ugly how she talks about casting treating people like props. though I doubt it's any worse than how an actual casting director sounds. I guess it's kinda good this kinda stuff exists though, as it just cuts through the pretensions of morals or artistic merit these movies has and just treat it like a business.

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008

im stupider then dog shit, i dont give a shit, and i dont give a fuck, and i will never shut the fuck up, and i'll always Respect my enemys.
- ernest hemingway


Bakeneko posted:

And how many superhero stories have their been in which the hero started out ordinary, then went out and actively worked to gain their superpowers? Not many. Even characters like Batman and Iron Man who don’t have powers are still wealthy geniuses who can only do what they do because of who they are. It’s far more likely for villains to be entirely self-made, however, sometimes explicitly because they’re jealous of the heroes.

In terms of Marvel DC there's characters who have trained for their powers, but often that's not a big deal. Like the Punisher, or maybe Iron Fist? Never watched or read any Iron Fist. Dr. Strange may have been awarded powers but he still had to work for them and that was emphasized in the movie.

I think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles might be the most disciplined popular superheros I can think of, surprisingly. Their powers consist of being humanoid and they have been ninja training their whole lives. Their more serious portrayals emphasize this. The 2012 cartoon emphasized training and discipline and punished a character who wanted powers now but did not want to work for them horribly.

I'd get into Super Sentai and Kamen Rider I've watched where training was emphasized but I doubt anyone's super interested in children's toy commercials (well, Kamen Rider tried to be adult and used to have child abuse and mass murder but slid into a children's time slot, which is fine, I'm watching for fun). But for shows where people henshin using toys into heros, there's a surprising number of them where characters had to train for their power. Then again, they are different from Western heros in that they are usually fighting weird monsters and nazi analogs instead of "crime".

However, I personally kind of prefer the idea of gaining powers but also gaining some kind of horrible downside that makes normal life difficult or impossible because I'm angsty like that. My favorite Batman character is Cassandra Cain, my favorite comic is Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol, that idea is what Kamen Rider used to be, I recently enjoyed Devilman Crybaby.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




MelvinBison posted:

One Punch Man.

In fact, it’s worth noting that this doesn’t just apply to Saitama. Heroes with actual, no-bullshit superpowers in OPM are relatively rare - most of them are just people in silly costumes who’ve trained hard enough in various martial arts to break the laws of physics to a greater or lesser extent. Saitama is just the most absurd and extreme example.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


Darth Walrus posted:

In fact, it’s worth noting that this doesn’t just apply to Saitama. Heroes with actual, no-bullshit superpowers in OPM are relatively rare - most of them are just people in silly costumes who’ve trained hard enough in various martial arts to break the laws of physics to a greater or lesser extent. Saitama is just the most absurd and extreme example.

Saitama's more of a monster, not a human - a pretty common monster origin story in OPM is that they were a person, but they went in so hard on one particular thing that they became a monster themed around that thing. It's a fundamental law of that universe that if you try your hardest, you get superpowers, and Saitama's pretty much just an exercise monster.

Calaveron
Aug 7, 2006


Dabir posted:

Saitama's more of a monster, not a human - a pretty common monster origin story in OPM is that they were a person, but they went in so hard on one particular thing that they became a monster themed around that thing. It's a fundamental law of that universe that if you try your hardest, you get superpowers, and Saitama's pretty much just an exercise monster.

What’s funny is that real deal fitness experts have pointed out that his training regime would be feasible with one rest day a week. It’d be hell on your knees though

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me





breatharianism is a feasible diet plan if you have one meal a day.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


Calaveron posted:

What’s funny is that real deal fitness experts have pointed out that his training regime would be feasible with one rest day a week. It’d be hell on your knees though

Sure, and eating loads and loads of crab is feasible too, but it isn't going to make you mutate into a crab monster.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


Dabir posted:

Sure, and eating loads and loads of crab is feasible too, but it isn't going to make you mutate into a crab monster.

Not with that attitude, it isn't .

StealthArcher
Jan 10, 2010






Terrible Opinions posted:

For FNM it depends on the individual store running the event, but yes at all big timey tournaments there are minimum cleanliness requirements. WotC has also started removing DCI certification and tournament support from stores with super racist managers. According to the mtg youtubers that the youtube algorithm promotes, this is destroying society as we know it. Apparently by watching some not racist mtg youtubers I was signally to the algorithm that I needed some racist ones to get balanced out.

https://twitter.com/machineiv/statu...126588942159872

Leal
Oct 2, 2009

If you LP what I LP
And if you work retail like I work retail
You would also scream like I scream



https://twitter.com/Commandelicious...439517784104961


Like clockwork

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me





I mean, the algorithm is like that for literally anything you watch. You watched an Initial D music video? Here's a video on cars. Here's six hour Eurodance playlist. Here's some guy streaming PSX games.

It doesn't know why you watched that video because it can't distinguish the contents of it or any of its suggestions from the topic.

Procrastinator
Aug 16, 2009

what?



Bakeneko posted:

If I was to name my single least favorite trope in all of fiction, it would be the concept of “special people are born special and everyone else should just know their place”. Particularly since it’s so common throughout fantasy and especially the superhero genre.

Literally a story as old as Jesus.

Vagabundo
Mar 20, 2007

Donncha wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
Donncha wish your girlfriend was a freak like me?



It actually sort of happens though. Like, I searched for and watched Aneeta Sarkeesian video on fridging women recently for my work, and I got a whole bunch of videos by "anti-SJW" (but actually basically a nazi) pieces of poo poo hoppin' mad because some loving WOMAN DARED TO HAVE A loving OPINON ABOUT MAH STEFF in my recommended videos. This seemed to happen when I watched a video by someone like hbomberguy making fun of said nazi fuckwits too.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Procrastinator posted:

Literally a story as old as Jesus.

older, even. a story as old as the literal concept of storytelling as we know it

Hel
Oct 9, 2012

Jokatgulm is tedium.
Jokatgulm is pain.
Jokatgulm is suffering.



I wish I could find that twitter thread of someone hooking up a fresh computer to a fresh internet line and after watching 2 videos on youtube started getting nazi recommendations. There is a lot of stuff about how what the youtube algorithm prioritizes is pretty much exactly what the extreme right puts out, Intentionally or not.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






KayTee posted:

Edna Mode talks about a movie.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDK5U95w9v4

(Edna Mode also has absolutely correct views about Sam Rami Spiderman)

I first watched this while on sleeping medication and I didn't care for it so I gave it another shot. And I dunno, something really feel right, still didn't care for it. Like, Screenslaver's whole deal feels sorta sane? Villain hates heroes and thinks people rely on them too much- kinda like Lex Luthor's whole deal with Superman- and then try to go about it by killing random people, like they tried to crash a pair of helicopters together and kill a senator and like, five journalists+pilots I think? Like, Syndrome's whole deal in the last movie in the last movie about taking the moral high ground away from superheroes by giving everyone (techbased)powers too. But like, if he'd tested the robots by having them fight and not slaughter heroes because he developed an everlasting grudge beacuse Mr. Incredible said 'No, 12 year old who is not my son, you cannot come with me on missions because that's unreasonably dangerous'

I dunno, it kinda seems like a weird issue to me that no one has a debate against the guy who was trying to kill a train full of people because. Reminds me of when that argument about Infinity War was going on because no one really rebuffed Thanos' motivation with words like 'How's anyone supposed to know he's the villain?' As he tries to kill half the universe with the Infinite Possible Solutions gauntlet.

Like, I dunno, I don't know what Brad Bird's politics are and I didn't see Tomorrowland so I'm probably not getting all the impressions about his work I should be.

Bakeneko posted:

This is great. If I was to name my single least favorite trope in all of fiction, it would be the concept of “special people are born special and everyone else should just know their place”. Particularly since it’s so common throughout fantasy and especially the superhero genre.

Even as a little kid, this was enough to make me intensely dislike Harry Potter for the way in which the narrative constantly puts down non-wizards. Rowling obviously intended for the reader to have some sympathy for them because Voldemort and his followers hate them, and that’s portrayed as a bad thing, but even the good wizards tend to be extremely condescending, like the muggles are some sort of exotic animal species to be studied and protected.

And how many superhero stories have their been in which the hero started out ordinary, then went out and actively worked to gain their superpowers? Not many. Even characters like Batman and Iron Man who don’t have powers are still wealthy geniuses who can only do what they do because of who they are. It’s far more likely for villains to be entirely self-made, however, sometimes explicitly because they’re jealous of the heroes.

I’m not saying I dislike all stories that have this trope (except Harry Potter. gently caress Harry Potter.) just that it annoys me whenever the writer goes out of their way to point how much more "worthy" the special people are compared to all the nobodies. No joke, it actually annoyed me so much that it’s partly responsible for me wanting to become a writer, because I wanted there to be more books about someone totally ordinary who throws themselves headfirst into adventure in order to earn specialness, as opposed to the typical protagonist who gets dragged through the plot kicking and screaming after having someone else tell them how special they are. Book’s almost finished at this point, but who knows whether it’ll ever get published.

Hmm. Well I would recommend Little Witch Academia because the main protagonist is completely inept at magic and only going to school because she saw a show from a performing witch at like a concert and even after she gets the magical wand that the incredible legendary witch used to use she's still absolutely terrible at magic till she actually gets spurred to actually knuckle down and study.

And that's a tough call in general. I'm not very well read in general so my reference pool is shallow but I can't really think of a ton of protagonists going out to make a name for themselves rather than just being picked out of a lottery or just happening to stumble across something. Like, think about it, Avatar the Last Airbender, Dragonball (Z), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, Shazam/Captain Marvel, I think Hal Jordan Green Lantern just got it from investigating an alien ship that crashed or that might've only been the live action movie.

Like, I dunno, it's pretty common. Either you're someone related to an important character- Dante- and that's why you're so tough or you're military or genetically engineered or you're not a human or whatever.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




RareAcumen posted:

I first watched this while on sleeping medication and I didn't care for it so I gave it another shot. And I dunno, something really feel right, still didn't care for it. Like, Screenslaver's whole deal feels sorta sane? Villain hates heroes and thinks people rely on them too much- kinda like Lex Luthor's whole deal with Superman- and then try to go about it by killing random people, like they tried to crash a pair of helicopters together and kill a senator and like, five journalists+pilots I think? Like, Syndrome's whole deal in the last movie in the last movie about taking the moral high ground away from superheroes by giving everyone (techbased)powers too. But like, if he'd tested the robots by having them fight and not slaughter heroes because he developed an everlasting grudge beacuse Mr. Incredible said 'No, 12 year old who is not my son, you cannot come with me on missions because that's unreasonably dangerous'

I dunno, it kinda seems like a weird issue to me that no one has a debate against the guy who was trying to kill a train full of people because. Reminds me of when that argument about Infinity War was going on because no one really rebuffed Thanos' motivation with words like 'How's anyone supposed to know he's the villain?' As he tries to kill half the universe with the Infinite Possible Solutions gauntlet.

Like, I dunno, I don't know what Brad Bird's politics are and I didn't see Tomorrowland so I'm probably not getting all the impressions about his work I should be.


Hmm. Well I would recommend Little Witch Academia because the main protagonist is completely inept at magic and only going to school because she saw a show from a performing witch at like a concert and even after she gets the magical wand that the incredible legendary witch used to use she's still absolutely terrible at magic till she actually gets spurred to actually knuckle down and study.

And that's a tough call in general. I'm not very well read in general so my reference pool is shallow but I can't really think of a ton of protagonists going out to make a name for themselves rather than just being picked out of a lottery or just happening to stumble across something. Like, think about it, Avatar the Last Airbender, Dragonball (Z), Spider-Man, The Fantastic Four, Shazam/Captain Marvel, I think Hal Jordan Green Lantern just got it from investigating an alien ship that crashed or that might've only been the live action movie.

Like, I dunno, it's pretty common. Either you're someone related to an important character- Dante- and that's why you're so tough or you're military or genetically engineered or you're not a human or whatever.

Dragonball is an interesting example because Goku is just Sun Wukong as a cute little kid (literally, in fact, because Son Goku is the Japanese name for Sun Wukong). So the protagonist’s inherent specialness is taken directly from a centuries-old story about the quest for enlightenment of a unique, miraculous, and possibly demonic being, but has itself influenced a generation of stories in the same genre.

Bakeneko
Jan 9, 2007



RareAcumen posted:

Hmm. Well I would recommend Little Witch Academia because the main protagonist is completely inept at magic and only going to school because she saw a show from a performing witch at like a concert and even after she gets the magical wand that the incredible legendary witch used to use she's still absolutely terrible at magic till she actually gets spurred to actually knuckle down and study.

Yeah, anyone who is at all interested in this sort of story should check LWA out. The show also gets bonus points from me for taking place in a pseudo-real-world setting where magic is rare, but not actually secret, which is an unusual choice and is tied into the plot in an interesting way.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


"Inherently special" protagonists are the reason I play Imperial Guard. gently caress your super weapons me and my 500 trillion buddies have laser pointers and t shirts!

poparena
Oct 31, 2012



New Nick Knacks on a show called Kids' Writes, where adults in jumpsuits act out stories sent in by kids.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Arcsquad12 posted:

"Inherently special" protagonists are the reason I play Imperial Guard. gently caress your super weapons me and my 500 trillion buddies have laser pointers and t shirts!

And super-weapons, to be fair.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






Darth Walrus posted:

Dragonball is an interesting example because Goku is just Sun Wukong as a cute little kid (literally, in fact, because Son Goku is the Japanese name for Sun Wukong). So the protagonist’s inherent specialness is taken directly from a centuries-old story about the quest for enlightenment of a unique, miraculous, and possibly demonic being, but has itself influenced a generation of stories in the same genre.

Yeah, but then it turns out that Saiyins all get a lot stronger from having intense battles that end with them on the verge of death and also Goku's got an absolutely absurd S-Cell count too and welp, there that goes.

Naruto and Bleach would've been better examples, I guess.

God, I really cannot think of any good examples. I guess Shrek? It's not like he's descended from some legendary monster or anything like Link.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




RareAcumen posted:

Yeah, but then it turns out that Saiyins all get a lot stronger from having intense battles that end with them on the verge of death and also Goku's got an absolutely absurd S-Cell count too and welp, there that goes.

Naruto and Bleach would've been better examples, I guess.

God, I really cannot think of any good examples. I guess Shrek? It's not like he's descended from some legendary monster or anything like Link.

I mean, Wukong got a crazy amount of power-ups in the original, too. Dude was chugging down immortality-inducers in pretty much every other chapter.

Puppy Time
Mar 1, 2005



There's not a lot of non-"special guy" narratives because it's massively easier to explain why a person is Just That Good or even involved at all with "they're the Chosen One."

Though I'm surprised nobody brought up Tolkien's stuff: Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit are both very much set up to be "normal, unspecial people are the heroes."

Also a lot of Terry Pratchett's books.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


To the point that Frodo fails to withstand evil.

RareAcumen
Dec 28, 2012






Puppy Time posted:

There's not a lot of non-"special guy" narratives because it's massively easier to explain why a person is Just That Good or even involved at all with "they're the Chosen One."

Though I'm surprised nobody brought up Tolkien's stuff: Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit are both very much set up to be "normal, unspecial people are the heroes."

Also a lot of Terry Pratchett's books.

Yeah, that's also a problem. A prophecy of greatness also suddenly comes along out of nowhere and welp, you were special all along as well!

Uh, I guess Yuri Lowell from Tales of Vesperia counts. Nothing really special about him compared to a lot of the normal Tales protags. No angel heritage, no magic talking sword, just a guy good with a sword.

WampaLord
Jan 14, 2010





Hunger Games is probably a good example too, Katniss is just a normal teenager, she wasn't prophesied and she doesn't have special powers or anything.

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Dragonatrix
Aug 16, 2009

You have offended STRINGIE! You must be punished!


It was in one of her older videos (the Hercules one, which I finally just watched earlier today) but Lindsey raised a few examples when talking about Chosen One narratives. Hunger Games and Lord of the Rings were two of the examples she used, even.

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