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achillesforever6
Apr 23, 2012

psst you wanna do a communism?


VolticSurge posted:

The only good anime that exists (or ever will exist) is My Hero Academia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz15ClENoDw
I counter your with my

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sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011



meanwhile jojo is the only unproblematic anime

please ignore the time jojo was friends with a nazi super scientist they were killing vampires it's ok

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


Terrible Opinions posted:

Yes I am aware that the US does bad things. I don't see how that's relevant to this conversation. The Jews as depicted in Nazi propaganda were also fictional. Doctor Mabuse was as a magic evil hypnotist after all so any negative portray in dozens of movies must surely have no impact on actual Jews by your logic.
Yes and Goblinslayer is structurally identical to how fascism justifies its use of force and centralization. Do I need to quote the entirety of Ur-Fascism at you? I figured everyone had read it and understood it by now.

Yes and cops still believe black people are indestructible super beings, but here's the thing, black people and jews exist and goblins do not. They don't represent an actual group. They're just a nebulus other, like robots, demons or aliens. Just another fictional creatures humans use to tell stories. fiction as allegory isn't propaganda. Harry potter won't make you a wiccan. The lion the witch and the wardrobe won't convert you to christianity, and goblin slayer won't normalize the murder of child sized poc.

Also what your talking about, a use of force and certeralization. That's just your run of the mill police state. This is fascism.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


Puppy Time posted:

Anime is particularly blatant about it and crams that poo poo in as a marketing move. It's not an anime-only thing, just like having terrible work conditions and customer service aren't a AAA-publisher-only thing, but it is a thing that's especially endemic to the industry in general right now because of multiple terrible factors and also capitalism.

I mean no more than any other entertainment industry singling it out is just weird. Especially with how many different genres there are with so many different focuses

Roth
Jul 9, 2016



Only cowards believe in the concept of coding. That's why my favorite book series is The Lord of the Rings.

Kuroyama
Sep 15, 2012
no fucking Anime in GiP


sexpig by night posted:

it would be 100x better if Goblin Slayer was a Konosuba style comedy about a hero who's just a complete prick who hates 'monsters' due to some lovely but really small scale thing one of them did to him as a kid. Like, the world around him is a normal anime fantasy world and he's just some douchebag all "THE GOBLINS AREN'T TRUSTWORTHY WHEN I WAS A KID ONE OF THEM PANTSED ME IN SCHOOL IN FRONT OF A GIRL I LIKED"

The bad news is, aside from one Souls-esque "you made the wrong choice, now you're hosed" moment (the fighter dude getting in trouble because he brought a longsword into a cramped tunnel) and a bunch of "women getting ripped apart by orcs, the anime" scenes, Goblin Slayer is just another by-the-numbers fantasy anime.

There will be a hard drinking dwarf, an "actually, she's 2000-years-old" elf, and a proud warrior dragonfolk. And eventually, it turns out that Goblin Slayer is just another pretty-boy hero, because god forbid we have someone ugly as a protagonist while we pay lip service to the idea that the Goblin Slayer is just doing the same thing that the Goblin tribes are doing.


Not spoilering because I don't think anyone actually cares.

rudecyrus
Nov 6, 2009

fuck you trolls



Call me crazy, but portraying a race (even a fictional one) as unequivocally evil in this day and age is troublesome at best.

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008



Having a show being just black and white good vs evil kinda thing is okay for me. Sometimes you just want to enjoy something simplistic as a way to relax. Like video games or anime.

1-800-DOCTORB
Nov 5, 2009


OmanyteJackson posted:

but here's the thing, black people and jews exist and goblins do not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsSDa5f1hgY#t=32s

rudecyrus
Nov 6, 2009

fuck you trolls



Archer666 posted:

Having a show being just black and white good vs evil kinda thing is okay for me. Sometimes you just want to enjoy something simplistic as a way to relax. Like video games or anime.

Oh sure, but that usually doesn't include graphic rape scenes.

Ghostlight
Sep 25, 2009

maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me





the point people are making is that those real people are the victims of monstrous fantasies told about them. that goblins don't exist in reality doesn't exculpate the series from using those same monstrous fantasies -but they're true- to frame its own purge for purity in a justified light. the idea that stories do not convey meaning or impact to the people who imbibe them is completely absurd. nobody is going to watch goblin slayer and go "yes, we need to kill all goblins in the real world before they do this" what they might do is watch it and say "yes, you're right, these rapist sub-humans should be violently purged from our lands" in a context where they also hold the opinion that some other form of person is below them or a minority is publicly being branded as rapists and dangerous criminals on a world-wide political platform (no godwin).

narnia won't convert you to christianity. what it might do is start you thinking about selflessness, sacrifice, and mystical rebirth because lol the lion was jesus the whole time. what the reader does with these ideas is uncontrollable, but lewis - while denying that the jesus metaphor was intentional - certainly agreed that the book's themes might make children more amenable to christianity when they're older: because they already have the required ideas seeded in their mind by fiction.

the nazis (yes godwin) literally believed that the jewish presence had to be purged because they were inveterate criminals possessed of an innate evil nature. the jews not being literal fantasy goblins was not an issue for the centuries of fantasies of human sacrifices and child eating that lay behind the holocaust.

Puppy Time
Mar 1, 2005



I mean there's #problematic elements to pretty much every kind of narrative because stories by necessity have to narrow down and abstract things, triply so if you're doing a fantasy story where a lot of elements of the story are heavily symbolic, and because most of the time you're working with genres that were formed in older times with older time cultural elements.

Like, yeah, there's issues with having a Biologically Evil species, and that's especially fraught to Westerners right now because nazis are happening, but it's also an inherent part of classic D&D and games based thereon, and Goblin Slayer is explicitly exploring and wrangling with the concepts of those worlds. My impression is that its interest is in saying, "There's these evil things that are constantly threatening the townsfolk everywhere, and the heroes just gently caress off and leave people to their fates in the pursuit of further murderhoboing, that's kinda hosed up," (plus "This poo poo gives me a boner,") rather than "See this? This is The Jews/Islamists/whatever." It's an element of the narrative, sure, but it's not the point, and is probably included without any thought or examination, because the point was commentary about the genre and also creepy boners.

I suppose you COULD have a problem-free narrative somehow, but it'd likely end up hard for a general audience to connect with because you'd have to jettison SO MANY elements and conventions that exist as scaffolding to help the audience quickly grasp what's up.

Yes, a lot of stories have fascistic elements, because fascism is an ideology based on oversimplifications and magical thinking and a desire for life to be like stories. That doesn't mean the stories are bad or lead to fascism, it means the fascists are dumb motherfuckers who can't distinguish between fiction and real life.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





OmanyteJackson posted:

Yes and cops still believe black people are indestructible super beings, but here's the thing, black people and jews exist and goblins do not. They don't represent an actual group. They're just a nebulus other, like robots, demons or aliens. Just another fictional creatures humans use to tell stories. fiction as allegory isn't propaganda. Harry potter won't make you a wiccan. The lion the witch and the wardrobe won't convert you to christianity, and goblin slayer won't normalize the murder of child sized poc.
That thought pattern of the other is exactly what causes Fascism. The problem of Fascism it not because it targets the wrong people as you seem to think it is, it's that it thinks that way at all.

Puppy Time posted:

Like, yeah, there's issues with having a Biologically Evil species, and that's especially fraught to Westerners right now because nazis are happening, but it's also an inherent part of classic D&D and games based thereon, and Goblin Slayer is explicitly exploring and wrangling with the concepts of those worlds. My impression is that its interest is in saying, "There's these evil things that are constantly threatening the townsfolk everywhere, and the heroes just gently caress off and leave people to their fates in the pursuit of further murderhoboing, that's kinda hosed up," (plus "This poo poo gives me a boner,") rather than "See this? This is The Jews/Islamists/whatever." It's an element of the narrative, sure, but it's not the point, and is probably included without any thought or examination, because the point was commentary about the genre and also creepy boners.
No such exploration occurs. You are buying into apologia by rape fetishists.

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


Roth posted:

Only cowards believe in the concept of coding. That's why my favorite book series is The Lord of the Rings.

Piccolo is black. This is a universal truth.

Terrible Opinions posted:

That thought pattern of the other is exactly what causes Fascism. The problem of Fascism it not because it targets the wrong people as you seem to think it is, it's that it thinks that way at all.
No such exploration occurs. You are buying into apologia by rape fetishists.

loving What? Okay do you really think fascism is not liking a particular group of people? Was the french revolution fascist? How about the black panther party? Now i really want to know what your definition of fascism is holy hell.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Did either of those groups believe in a group that was subhuman based on nothing besides ancestry and who were biologically predisposed to violence and rape?

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


Yeah. The french nobility and the beneficiaries of white slave owners. Both enacted centuries of state sanctioned violence and rape against their people.

Is that all there is to your definition of fascism?

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Neither of those were/are believed to be caused due to some ancestral/racial inferiority of the either the nobility or white people.

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008



rudecyrus posted:

Oh sure, but that usually doesn't include graphic rape scenes.

Some simplistic stories are more edgy than others, yes.

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


Terrible Opinions posted:

Neither of those were/are believed to be caused due to some ancestral/racial inferiority of the either the nobility or white people.
,

Believed by who? Are you saying it's impossible for aristocracy or white people to be thought of as inferior? What am I saying, of course not. Not you, Terrible Opinions.

How about Israel the Palestine conflict then. Who's the fascist there? Does the Rape of Nanking mean that Japan a fascist toward China or does internment camps and dropping 2 nukes on the country make the US fascist toward Japan? Or are none of them fascist now? How are you feeling about South Africa, who's inferior there? I'm dying to hear your opinions.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Why would you think that calling Imperial Japan fascist is somehow controversial? Like actually, how would you define fascism in any way that doesn't include Imperial Japan?

Yardbomb
Jul 11, 2011

What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?



OmanyteJackson posted:

How about Israel the Palestine conflict then. Who's the fascist there?

Probably the side where the interior minister said "Israel belongs to the white man" and who're ethnically cleansing the palestinians.

But either way the spankbait monster rape series is bad and deserves like zero of this weird attempt at standing up for it at all.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016



OmanyteJackson posted:

,

Believed by who? Are you saying it's impossible for aristocracy or white people to be thought of as inferior? What am I saying, of course not. Not you, Terrible Opinions.

How about Israel the Palestine conflict then. Who's the fascist there? Does the Rape of Nanking mean that Japan a fascist toward China or does internment camps and dropping 2 nukes on the country make the US fascist toward Japan? Or are none of them fascist now? How are you feeling about South Africa, who's inferior there? I'm dying to hear your opinions.

I'm going to be real with you chief, this attempt at an argument is making me miss Bravestofthelamps.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


OmanyteJackson posted:

How about Israel the Palestine conflict then. Who's the fascist there?
Benjamin Netanyahu.

quote:

Does the Rape of Nanking mean that Japan a fascist toward China or does internment camps and dropping 2 nukes on the country make the US fascist toward Japan?
Yes and yes.

quote:

How are you feeling about South Africa, who's inferior there? I'm dying to hear your opinions.
You'd have to be way more specific, but I don't think you actually do want to hear opinions about this.

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


OmanyteJackson have you ever seen a reactionary argument you could potentially have and thought "actually no, we don't need this"

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


Yardbomb posted:

Probably the side where the interior minister said "Israel belongs to the white man" and who're ethnically cleansing the palestinians.

But either way the spankbait monster rape series is bad and deserves like zero of this weird attempt at standing up for it at all.

This stopped being about the mean green bean murder machine like 5 posts ago, it's bad, it's edgelord poo poo, we all agree. I'm just interested in what Terrible Opinions thinks fascism is.

Terrible Opinions posted:

Why would you think that calling Imperial Japan fascist is somehow controversial? Like actually, how would you define fascism in any way that doesn't include Imperial Japan?

Imperial Japan is fascist because of it's war crimes, but the around 40 women raped daily during the US occupation deserves no mention? Oh dear, this is looking like a trend buddy.

Garrand
Dec 28, 2012




Are you...are you trying to say that Imperial Japan wasn't fascist?

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





I'm confused as to what rhetorical gotcha trap you think you've laid.

Motto
Aug 3, 2013



goblin slayer sucks but it's also sadly pretty standard garbage trash genre fantasy stuff and shouldn't get the benefit of controversy (though that's a sailed boat).

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


OmanyteJackson posted:

Imperial Japan is fascist because of it's war crimes, but the around 40 women raped daily during the US occupation deserves no mention? Oh dear, this is looking like a trend buddy.
You're literally the one who didn't mention it lol

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





When I tried reading Goblin Slayer the appeal to me was that the world is built around a fundamentally broken economic system that is fundamentally self-destructive out of sheer callousness. The lowest rungs of the adventurer economy are essentially lied to about how safe their occupation is and how easy the baby-level threats, ie The Goblins, are. This is necessary because the elite adventurers who can handle them as easily as the propaganda implies won't do the crap work. The Rich have gotten so Richer that the fundamental rot at the core of their society's foundations is beneath them, no matter how desperately it needs attention and how doomed they themselves are if they continue to overlook it. Goblins as a problem keep getting worse, and the people who are duped into being willing to deal with them continue to be less capable of doing it, because if they were educated they wouldn't take the job and if they were equipped to be able to do it safely they ALSO wouldn't take the job because it wouldn't be worth it to them.

The titular character is a product of this actively-collapsing system, and the fact that that system's failures have left him devoid of almost all of his humanity is the ultimate condemnation of the system: he is the only thing that keeps everything from collapsing, but he's also exactly as bad as the problem he's dedicated himself to fixing. It was a compelling setup for a dark fantasy to me.

That being said, it couldn't keep my attention because the rape porn indulgence and the boilerplate anime tropes poisoned the well. I don't blame anyone for making GBS threads on it.

Kim Justice
Jan 29, 2007



OmanyteJackson, you are currently dangerously close to pulling a Boogie and spouting whacked out and incredibly spicy alternative history takes on Imperial Japan in defense of some lovely anime. Fall back.

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


Alaois posted:

OmanyteJackson have you ever seen a reactionary argument you could potentially have and thought "actually no, we don't need this"

Maybe on a day when were no longer in hell, then sure.


Dabir posted:

You're literally the one who didn't mention it lol

your right, I only wrote two other major US war crimes.

Kim Justice posted:

OmanyteJackson, you are currently dangerously close to pulling a Boogie and spouting whacked out and incredibly spicy alternative history takes on Imperial Japan in defense of some lovely anime. Fall back.

Japan is still a fascist country, the US is too. I doubt that's really a hot take though.

Kim Justice
Jan 29, 2007



Yes but it's just a lovely anime that no one cares about and how are these takes related and-oh sod it, y'all do your thing. I miss the time when "all media is a metaphor for fascism" was a jokey game.

Archer666
Dec 27, 2008



Maybe the real fascism is the friends we made along the way.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





OmanyteJackson posted:

Japan is still a fascist country, the US is too. I doubt that's really a hot take though.
Then what's the problem is calling a bad anime that is a pretty spot on example of four of Eco's fourteen properties of fascism, fascist?

OmanyteJackson
Mar 18, 2012

by Nyc_Tattoo


Sadly we live in a world where lovely anime and live action versions of disney cartoons is all the culture we get now.

Here's some content:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DINR4CNZZDo

Terrible Opinions posted:

Then what's the problem is calling a bad anime that is a pretty spot on example of four of Eco's fourteen properties of fascism, fascist?

Because most of them don't fit the show were talking about and the ones that do aren't unique to this show. Kingdom Hearts fits better weirdly.

OmanyteJackson fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Oct 16, 2018

Hungry
Jul 14, 2006



It amazes me that after discussion of the fascist-coded rape fetish show was gassed in ADTRW there's still people in entirely different subforums on this dead gay comedy site determined to strap those contextual blinders to their faces and defend it by getting real loving weird.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Puppy Time posted:

Like, yeah, there's issues with having a Biologically Evil species, and that's especially fraught to Westerners right now because nazis are happening, but it's also an inherent part of classic D&D and games based thereon, and Goblin Slayer is explicitly exploring and wrangling with the concepts of those worlds. My impression is that its interest is in saying, "There's these evil things that are constantly threatening the townsfolk everywhere, and the heroes just gently caress off and leave people to their fates in the pursuit of further murderhoboing, that's kinda hosed up," (plus "This poo poo gives me a boner,") rather than "See this? This is The Jews/Islamists/whatever." It's an element of the narrative, sure, but it's not the point, and is probably included without any thought or examination, because the point was commentary about the genre and also creepy boners.

This would be where we start noticing that D&D was written by a bunch of casually racist dudes with really weird fetishes, and that the fandom has been joking about and grappling with this for literal decades, yes. If something is inspired by an older, racist work and carries over that work's issues, then it is still racist. Goblin Slayer not only does that, but magnifies the racism.

On the dumbass fascism discussion, I should also note that a major thread in Goblin Slayer is the psychological toll wrought on him by being the only person who really cares about goblin-slaying, and his friends' push for the kingdom to adopt a more organised, institutional form of goblin extermination. If you've read literally any Nazi literature, this may begin to sound familiar.

Kim Justice
Jan 29, 2007



OmanyteJackson posted:

Sadly we live in a world where lovely anime and live action versions of disney cartoons is all the culture we get now.

There's plenty culture out there, find better stuff

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StealthArcher
Jan 10, 2010






OmanyteJackson posted:

Sadly we live in a world where lovely anime and live action versions of disney cartoons is all the culture we get now.

Righto Gramps, tell us the story about how the Czechs deserved those tanks again.

StealthArcher fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Oct 16, 2018

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