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Failin Porte_Potty
Apr 4, 2017

Pounded in the Butt by an Outhouse Pretending to be an Internet Reviewer.
By Chuck Tingle


BravestOfTheLamps posted:

You seem to confusing cinema with literature. Genre fiction is by definition literary.
I rate this post ★☆☆☆

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Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1989
I am trash man
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS





Wonder Woman is the only modern superhero movie that actually really captures the idealism of the classic superhero concept and legit really inspires people to be better people.

That's not to dismiss stuff like Thor Ragnarok but the superhero label is a bit of a misnomer when they're really more like dramas and pulp adventure flicks starring people with crazy powers.

The Superman movies (especially the second one) come across as cynical despite not technically having a cynical message because they roll around in cartoonish misery, suffering, and hopeless melodrama like a pig in poo poo to the point that a happy ending just feels like a halfhearted afterthought. A film that has a joke about peeing in a jar immediately leading into congress being blown up does not exactly inspire feelings of optimism.

Don't @ me

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008



"Cartoonish misery" isn't exactly correct. Just look at the news, the kind of poo poo you see in the film doesn't even hold a candle to the junk going on.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

Augus posted:

The Superman movies (especially the second one) come across as cynical despite not technically having a cynical message because they roll around in cartoonish misery, suffering, and hopeless melodrama like a pig in poo poo to the point that a happy ending just feels like a halfhearted afterthought.

What you're criticizing is that the movies convincingly portray a bleak and broken world. The heroes recognize this, but choose to believe that things can be better in spite of no matter how bad things are. This is why the antagonists - Zod, Luthor, Batman - are cynics and nihilists. Wonder Woman is very mediocre, but also recognizes this.

The Marvel movies are terribly cynical but hide it under false feel-good heroics.

Augus posted:

A film that has a joke about peeing in a jar immediately leading into congress being blown up does not exactly inspire feelings of optimism.

We live in a world where Pissgate is a topic of discussion. BvS was simply ahead of the curve.

BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Apr 21, 2018

Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)


is a hotdog a sandwich

The Deleter
May 22, 2010


Tired Moritz posted:

is a hotdog a sandwich

If you hold it sideways so the bun is at the top and bottom, it's technically a sandwich, but at that point there are much better options for what you're looking for.

ricdesi
Mar 18, 2014

Does it really need saying?


Augus posted:

Wonder Woman is the only modern superhero movie that actually really captures the idealism of the classic superhero concept and legit really inspires people to be better people.

That's not to dismiss stuff like Thor Ragnarok but the superhero label is a bit of a misnomer when they're really more like dramas and pulp adventure flicks starring people with crazy powers.

The Superman movies (especially the second one) come across as cynical despite not technically having a cynical message because they roll around in cartoonish misery, suffering, and hopeless melodrama like a pig in poo poo to the point that a happy ending just feels like a halfhearted afterthought. A film that has a joke about peeing in a jar immediately leading into congress being blown up does not exactly inspire feelings of optimism.

Don't @ me

Wonder Woman is at exactly zero points in her own movie in any danger because she is a weapon forged by the gods. The final act was complete garbage (she only has the power to win when she sees her TRUE LOVE SHE’S KNOWN FOR A WEEK die), and “the answer is love” is so phenomenally cheesy I’m shocked it came out of a DCEU movie.

WW is a pulp adventure flick starring a person with crazy powers.

It just happens to be passable, compared to the succession of utter dumpster fires that preceded it.

The Deleter posted:

If you hold it sideways so the bun is at the top and bottom, it's technically a sandwich, but at that point there are much better options for what you're looking for.

Sideways dog = sub

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


WW's movie suffers from the same issue a lot of cape stories have in general, where she doesn't really care about things enough to do Maximum Effort until someone she personally knows/loves/got dicked down with was hurt by it. At least Spider-Man and Batman try to fix this by having the 'oh poo poo crime is BAD because it happened to someone I care about?!' moment happen to literal children.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1989
I am trash man
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS





BravestOfTheLamps posted:

What you're criticizing is that the movies convincingly portray a bleak and broken world. The heroes recognize this, but choose to believe that things can be better in spite of no matter how bad things are. This is why the antagonists - Zod, Luthor, Batman - are cynics and nihilists.
and in doing so it offers a fascist worldview where this one man is the only person who can fix the world and if people just understood him everything would be better, so he is free to act out in an idiotic and childish fashion as the world conspires to undermine his greatness and therefore absolve him of all wrongdoing. All the evils in the world are the work of one billionaire who can be easily identified and punched when the opportunity presents itself, and superman can punch that man because he is great. It presents the same childish narrative as usual but by backing it up with "gritty realism" it only makes itself more harmful by convincing people that this is how real life works. It boldly tells the audience to their face that they should not question the actions of those in power, they are better than us and they are right, and to question their highly questionable actions is evil. We should resign ourselves to the misery of the world and leave our fate to a higher power who will save us. You're right that Batman vs Superman predicted Trump, because it accurately represents and reinforces the mindset that elected Trump and still supports him. "Trump is our hero, Trump is here to save us. The people holding trials investigating Trump's numerous crimes are trying to undermine him because they hate his greatness. If everyone just understood that Trump is here to help us the world would be a better place"

Yardbomb
Jul 11, 2011

What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?



Botl isn't worth a fraction of the words being thrown over their head.

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1989
I am trash man
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS





ricdesi posted:

Wonder Woman is at exactly zero points in her own movie in any danger because she is a weapon forged by the gods.

and it doesn't matter because Diana's personal safety isn't what's at stake. she's there to save others, not herself.

AriadneThread
Feb 17, 2011

The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.




*slams the nuclear launch button* there are no good superhero movies!!

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


Yardbomb posted:

Botl isn't worth a fraction of the words being thrown over their head.

I’m surprised people still post at him.

He has like two posts and he just changes the names around.

Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)


superhero movies is for watching hot dudes fight and stuff

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

Hi, Everybody!


BravestOfTheLamps posted:

This is why its dilemmas weighs so heavily even on viewers who denigrate it – no one cared about the destruction of New York in The Avengers, but Man of Steel taught people to fear collateral damage from war. It also taught ethical emancipation. The movie defies the paternalistic fantasy traditionally offered by the character of Superman, giving us instead of a conflicted, idealistic proletarian figure. The movie’s “nihilism” is truly emancipation. The merciless destruction and Zod’s death show that there are no safety nets or comforts to be had. Victory over your enemy will not be triumphant, but terrifying. The last thread had people constantly advocating violence against fascists, but unwilling to recognize that what they were heading for was that moment of terrible freedom.

Aside from the massive global changes in politics still resonating a decade later, and SHIELD's massive buildup, due to the ramifications of what occurred. Or the influx of alien weapons into the black market and general reverse-engineering.


Whereas Metropolis' destruction doesn't go beyond "We have stopped the Bad Guy and won the day! The thousands, if not millions, of people who died in the churning wreckage of the city destroying itself? Who cares, we stopped the bad guys!"

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008



Augus posted:

and in doing so it offers a fascist worldview where this one man is the only person who can fix the world and if people just understood him everything would be better, so he is free to act out in an idiotic and childish fashion as the world conspires to undermine his greatness and therefore absolve him of all wrongdoing. All the evils in the world are the work of one billionaire who can be easily identified and punched when the opportunity presents itself, and superman can punch that man because he is great. It presents the same childish narrative as usual but by backing it up with "gritty realism" it only makes itself more harmful by convincing people that this is how real life works. It boldly tells the audience to their face that they should not question the actions of those in power, they are better than us and they are right, and to question their highly questionable actions is evil. We should resign ourselves to the misery of the world and leave our fate to a higher power who will save us. You're right that Batman vs Superman predicted Trump, because it accurately represents and reinforces the mindset that elected Trump and still supports him. "Trump is our hero, Trump is here to save us. The people holding trials investigating Trump's numerous crimes are trying to undermine him because they hate his greatness. If everyone just understood that Trump is here to help us the world would be a better place"

That's quite the reading. It's also predicated on the person in the position of power being Superman, who is not. He's a man with power, but not in power. It's the reason why the film starts by showing him doing his thing then setting off a series of events that cast shade on if he should be doing what he is doing. The only person shown in a position of power is Lex Luthor, who is a psychopath. If you want to apply Donald Trump applicability, he's the one.


Neddy Seagoon posted:

Aside from the massive global changes in politics still resonating a decade later, and SHIELD's massive buildup, due to the ramifications of what occurred. Or the influx of alien weapons into the black market and general reverse-engineering.


Whereas Metropolis' destruction doesn't go beyond "We have stopped the Bad Guy and won the day! The thousands, if not millions, of people who died in the churning wreckage of the city destroying itself? Who cares, we stopped the bad guys!"

I mean, yeah, if you want to compare a continuity with 5 (3 of which are directly connected and 1, being Wonder Woman, takes place a good century before the events of Man of Steel and the other being Justice League) films to one that has over a dozen, the later sure does feel more fleshed out. The cogs were turning, however. Instead of a fascist branch of the government building flying fortresses, we get the government putting together a group of criminals to run black ops and split public opinion.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

Augus posted:

and in doing so it offers a fascist worldview where this one man is the only person who can fix the world and if people just understood him everything would be better, so he is free to act out in an idiotic and childish fashion as the world conspires to undermine his greatness and therefore absolve him of all wrongdoing. All the evils in the world are the work of one billionaire who can be easily identified and punched when the opportunity presents itself, and superman can punch that man because he is great. It presents the same childish narrative as usual but by backing it up with "gritty realism" it only makes itself more harmful by convincing people that this is how real life works. It boldly tells the audience to their face that they should not question the actions of those in power, they are better than us and they are right, and to question their highly questionable actions is evil. We should resign ourselves to the misery of the world and leave our fate to a higher power who will save us.

I'm starting to be convinced that you haven't watched the movie, because it would explain why you're being so vague and contradict the text of the movie.

1) The movies show that Superman by himself is incapable of fixing the world. Batman v Superman even has a montage of Superman's heroics that are admirable but also do nothing to fix the world, hence his dissatisfaction throughout.

2) Lex Luthor is not responsible for all the evils in the world. When Superman meets him, he is explicitly unable to punch him to fix things. He's powerless before Luthor. Then he saves Luthor from getting punched.

3) Batman v Superman is about different people questioning the actions of those with power.

So how exactly is it showing "the same childish narrative"?

Augus posted:

You're right that Batman vs Superman predicted Trump, because it accurately represents and reinforces the mindset that elected Trump and still supports him. "Trump is our hero, Trump is here to save us. The people holding trials investigating Trump's numerous crimes are trying to undermine him because they hate his greatness. If everyone just understood that Trump is here to help us the world would be a better place"



Trump really broke a lot of brains huh


Neddy Seagoon posted:

Aside from the massive global changes in politics still resonating a decade later, and SHIELD's massive buildup, due to the ramifications of what occurred. Or the influx of alien weapons into the black market and general reverse-engineering.


Whereas Metropolis' destruction doesn't go beyond "We have stopped the Bad Guy and won the day! The thousands, if not millions, of people who died in the churning wreckage of the city destroying itself? Who cares, we stopped the bad guys!"

You seem to only comprehend the narratives in term of content rather than form. With The Avengers franchise you only talk about plotline consequences and ramifications. Constrast this to the apocalyptic battle in Man of Steel - the visual treatment of destruction is the story, and it continues to haunt fans.

Metropolis' destruction ends explicitly with Superman hollowed out by the terror of victory, the only realistic outcome of battle against fascism.

When you claim that the movie doesn't care, what you seem to mean is that you don't care.

BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Apr 21, 2018

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1989
I am trash man
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS





"if only you had actually watched the movie you would understand how brilliant it is"

yeah I'm done here

DEEP STATE PLOT
Aug 13, 2008
Probation
Can't post for 11 hours!


once again i feel compelled to make the case for me being made a mod of this thread so i can probate everyone dumb enough to actually respond to botl

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

Augus posted:

"if only you had actually watched the movie you would understand how brilliant it is"

yeah I'm done here

I didn't argue that. You seem to have at least severely misremembered what happened in them, even basic stuff like that Superman doesn't punch Luthor.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




man of steel is the fourth best superman movie.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


Did someone argue that Superman isn’t in a position of power.

Lol

poparena
Oct 31, 2012



Oh good, this thread is also garbage now.

Anyway, two new Nick Knacks for you. First, Dusty's Treehouse, a charming 70s children's puppet show from the Los Angeles area that was used in the mid-90s to scam old people out of their money.

Then, Livewire, a revised version of Nickelodeon's previous young adult talk show. Includes young women of color getting excited about video games, and baby R.E.M.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

CharlestheHammer posted:

Did someone argue that Superman isn’t in a position of power.

Lol

There's difference between having power and being in power. Everyone has power. In any society, the people have the power to accomplish anything, but they still do not rule.


Groovelord Neato posted:

man of steel is the fourth best superman movie.

1. Jesus Christ Superstar
2. The Passion of the Christ
3. Life of Brian
4. Man of Steel

Checks out.

Puppy Time
Mar 1, 2005



DEEP STATE PLOT posted:

once again i feel compelled to make the case for me being made a mod of this thread so i can probate everyone dumb enough to actually respond to botl

Yeah, I'm on board for this.

AriadneThread
Feb 17, 2011

The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.




poparena posted:

Oh good, this thread is also garbage now.

Anyway, two new Nick Knacks for you. First, Dusty's Treehouse, a charming 70s children's puppet show from the Los Angeles area that was used in the mid-90s to scam old people out of their money.

Then, Livewire, a revised version of Nickelodeon's previous young adult talk show. Includes young women of color getting excited about video games, and baby R.E.M.

i saw the first video, but didn't see the next one go up yet, neat, thanks

ricdesi
Mar 18, 2014

Does it really need saying?


Groovelord Neato posted:

man of steel is the fourth best superman movie.

Not hard to do when most Superman movies are total crap.

Augus posted:

and it doesn't matter because Diana's personal safety isn't what's at stake. she's there to save others, not herself.

Welcome to the superhero genre. Same goes for, let's see...

  • Iron Man - preventing his aggro arms dealer buddy from selling the most powerful weapon the world has seen thus far to terrorists, including trying to sacrifice himself when the Arc Reactor was detonated
  • The Incredible Hulk - preventing a genetically modified soldier with rage issues from destroying Harlem, with the main character becoming suicidal after these events
  • Captain America: The First Avenger - preventing a hyper-Nazi from nuking New York City, sacrificing himself and becoming frozen for 65 years
  • The Avengers - preventing the subjugation of Earth by alien forces and stopping a shadow council from nuking New York City, with Tony sacrificing himself (and probably being clinically dead for a short while nuking the Chitauri in open space
  • Captain America: The Winter Soldier - preventing the post-hyper-Nazis from drone-killing millions of people and subjugating the Earth, including basically just letting his best friend kill him so long as it stalls him for long enough
  • Guardians of the Galaxy - preventing a space-psycho from harnessing the power to destroy whole planets, including potentially having their bodies torn apart by an Infinity Stone to do so
  • Ant-Man - preventing the post-hyper-Nazis from getting atom-altering technology, including risking shrinking to subatomic levels for all eternity
  • Doctor Strange - preventing the Earth from being absorbed into a pain dimension Chzo Mythos-style, including possibly being locked in a time loop where you are violently murdered every few seconds for all eternity
  • Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 - preventing half the universe from being absorbed into an impossibly old, powerful being, including possibly being absorbed themselves in order to do so
  • Spider-Man: Homecoming - preventing a weapons dealer from getting a hold of Avengers tech, and going out of his way to try and save the villain
  • Thor: Ragnarok - preventing an all-powerful warrior witch from obliterating the whole of Asgard, including having his eye torn out and risking suffering the same fate as the villain to do so
  • Black Panther - preventing Wakandan technology from being sold on the black market in a massive racial uprising that could cause World War III

It's almost like selfless acts of courage are a defining trait in the superhero genre, idk. It should also be noted that, unlike Diana, most of the heroes in the above-mentioned movies are not nearly indestructible. Thor and Ego-ized Peter are the two main detractors there.

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




black panther was the bad guy though.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

ricdesi posted:

  • Iron Man - preventing his aggro arms dealer buddy from selling the most powerful weapon the world has seen thus far to terrorists, including trying to sacrifice himself when the Arc Reactor was detonated
  • The Incredible Hulk - preventing a genetically modified soldier with rage issues from destroying Harlem, with the main character becoming suicidal after these events
  • Captain America: The First Avenger - preventing a hyper-Nazi from nuking New York City, sacrificing himself and becoming frozen for 65 years
  • The Avengers - preventing the subjugation of Earth by alien forces and stopping a shadow council from nuking New York City, with Tony sacrificing himself (and probably being clinically dead for a short while nuking the Chitauri in open space
  • Captain America: The Winter Soldier - preventing the post-hyper-Nazis from drone-killing millions of people and subjugating the Earth, including basically just letting his best friend kill him so long as it stalls him for long enough
  • Guardians of the Galaxy - preventing a space-psycho from harnessing the power to destroy whole planets, including potentially having their bodies torn apart by an Infinity Stone to do so
  • Ant-Man - preventing the post-hyper-Nazis from getting atom-altering technology, including risking shrinking to subatomic levels for all eternity
  • Doctor Strange - preventing the Earth from being absorbed into a pain dimension Chzo Mythos-style, including possibly being locked in a time loop where you are violently murdered every few seconds for all eternity
  • Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 - preventing half the universe from being absorbed into an impossibly old, powerful being, including possibly being absorbed themselves in order to do so
  • Spider-Man: Homecoming - preventing a weapons dealer from getting a hold of Avengers tech, and going out of his way to try and save the villain
  • Thor: Ragnarok - preventing an all-powerful warrior witch from obliterating the whole of Asgard, including having his eye torn out and risking suffering the same fate as the villain to do so
  • Black Panther - preventing Wakandan technology from being sold on the black market in a massive racial uprising that could cause World War III

I absolutely adore this list.

For example, among these selfless acts of courage is "nuking an alien race" and "stopping black nationalism".

ricdesi
Mar 18, 2014

Does it really need saying?


Groovelord Neato posted:

black panther was the bad guy though.

He realized he was on the opposite extreme from Killmonger and decided to choose a middle road in the end, but I'd hardly call the one not in favor of flooding the world with wildly overpowered weapons "the bad guy".

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

I absolutely adore this list.

For example, among these selfless acts of courage is "nuking an alien race".

One out of twelve. How bout the other 11?

Also, the "nuking an alien race" option was only used because the entire planet was at risk of being enslaved. I'd say it's a valid choice at that point, especially with Loki and the Chitauri being the initial aggressors.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




Groovelord Neato posted:

black panther was the bad guy though.

Naah, the CIA were the bad guys. Everyone else was just trying to deal with that (or, in Ross’s case, defect and become a Wakandan agent instead).

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

ricdesi
Mar 18, 2014

Does it really need saying?


So where's the part where you tell me how that list of movies features characters less selfless than Diana "literal god" Prince?

Ubik_Lives
Nov 16, 2012


ricdesi posted:

Wonder Woman is at exactly zero points in her own movie in any danger because she is a weapon forged by the gods.

Isn't Wonder Woman injured in the opening fight on the beach and they make a comment about how quickly she heals while inspecting the wound? Until she goes into god mode at during the boss fight, I don't see any reason to think she couldn't be killed by the Germans.

Jimbot
Jul 22, 2008



Not sure about this whole thing but you have to admit that putting "nuking someone" as a virtue is pretty funny.

ricdesi
Mar 18, 2014

Does it really need saying?


Ubik_Lives posted:

Isn't Wonder Woman injured in the opening fight on the beach and they make a comment about how quickly she heals while inspecting the wound? Until she goes into god mode at during the boss fight, I don't see any reason to think she couldn't be killed by the Germans.

Which kinda makes her runway stroll through the Western Front even weirder, honestly. I leaned over to my girlfriend while we were watching and asked "Why isn't anyone just shooting her in the head?" and her response was "Why is she walking?"

Jimbot posted:

Not sure about this whole thing but you have to admit that putting "nuking someone" as a virtue is pretty funny.

Oh for sure, I'm not saying it makes the Avengers terribly good people, but if your options are running out, hey. One could argue that the nuke could have been pointed elsewhere and gotten the same result, since the wormhole is closed right after.

I'm getting the sense that BotL's argument is that because Diana isn't in mortal danger, but chooses to fight anyway, that makes her a better superhero. It may make her a better character morally, but gently caress me does it make for a boring character to watch on screen. Invincible characters are dull as poo poo. If I wanted to watch Sucker Punch again, I'd just chew on an exposed electrical wire. Or watch Sucker Punch again.

ricdesi fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Apr 21, 2018

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




one of the supermans shoulda ripped off the dark knight returns scene where he gets nuked and sucks up the sun power from the plants.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


Lipstick Apathy

ricdesi posted:

Also, the "nuking an alien race" option was only used because the entire planet was at risk of being enslaved. I'd say it's a valid choice at that point, especially with Loki and the Chitauri being the initial aggressors.

ricdesi posted:

Oh for sure, I'm not saying it makes the Avengers terribly good people, but if your options are running out, hey. One could argue that the nuke could have been pointed elsewhere and gotten the same result, since the wormhole is closed right after.

I am staring in awe.

ricdesi
Mar 18, 2014

Does it really need saying?


BravestOfTheLamps posted:

I am staring in awe.

Well you're not backing up your argument anymore, so I guess that's the only option left for you, yeah.

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Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


https://www.facebook.com/WingChunNe...02448903294257/
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