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stillvisions
Oct 15, 2014

I really should have come up with something better before spending five bucks on this.


Linear Zoetrope posted:

I think the old series are colluding or something because EMH updated twice this month after being dead for 2 years, and Tribe Twelve is tweeting (though I think that one was still semi-active).

I'm guessing it's also the Night Mind effect - he's sending new eyeballs their way as people explore his back catalog and they're seeing the viewer numbers come back again, so might as well keep going. Also Patreon has become a thing so they can have that as a mini-revenue-stream on the side without having to break too much character in the videos.

I can imagine perks such as "we'll send you a mysterious package from _______" or "our evil twitter being will mark you for death" or such.

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Waffles Inc.
Jan 20, 2005



Terrible Opinions posted:

It's good to see that your stance is that art cannot have differing levels of quality. You may want to leave a thread primarily for discussing critics and criticism.

Well, kinda not? I mean, I don't think the purpose of criticism is to "rank" art by varying levels of "quality" if that's what you mean. I think criticism is rad and cool and a great way to talk about films, books, music, visual art, etc and furthermore, that the "purpose" of criticism (so much that there is one) is not to say "this is good" or "this is bad".

IMO we can and should talk about art and its critics more deeply than "this movie is bad". And I reckon you agree! A good example of that is, for example, Ellis' third Hobbit video. Stood up on its own, it is a criticism of the art that isn't a qualitative criticism, and that's awesome

Out of curiosity, what are some things that you look for when you determine the "quality" of a film, apart from your own enjoyment?

Ghostlight posted:

I didn't see any substantive difference in the thesis presented in the third part than in the first two. That is, I did not take the first two parts at all to be a criticism of The Hobbits as bad films - yes, they were films Lindsey clearly didn't think were as good as they should have been - but all of the specific arguments I can recall were very clearly presented from the perspective of how The Hobbits were made influencing the why of The Hobbits Bad (Subjective ofc). Tonal shifts were discussed in context of the need to stretch the story to incomprehensible length, changes to the characters from the book were mentioned alongside the need to have those characters be more developed because they needed to have character arcs people were engaged in throughout the movie because it's no longer just Bilbo's baker's dozen adventure. The whole thing is virtually punctuated by her mentions of studio interference; narrative pressures both in length, scale, and tone; and generally what a clusterfuck the actual act of accomplishing the movie was.

I get you, and point taken, and I think we just disagree is all

Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Apr 25, 2018

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



The only good way to talk about art is with beer and friends.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016



CelticPredator posted:

The only good way to talk about art is with beer and friends.

Actually it is with the President who looks like somebody I could have a beer with.

CelticPredator
Oct 11, 2013



The president smells of piss

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012




CelticPredator posted:

The president smells of piss

Ah, a Coors drinker.

Trojan Kaiju
Feb 13, 2012




Waffles Inc. posted:

Well, kinda not? I mean, I don't think the purpose of criticism is to "rank" art by varying levels of "quality" if that's what you mean. I think criticism is rad and cool and a great way to talk about films, books, music, visual art, etc and furthermore, that the "purpose" of criticism (so much that there is one) is not to say "this is good" or "this is bad".

IMO we can and should talk about art and its critics more deeply than "this movie is bad". And I reckon you agree! A good example of that is, for example, Ellis' third Hobbit video. Stood up on its own, it is a criticism of the art that isn't a qualitative criticism, and that's awesome

Out of curiosity, what are some things that you look for when you determine the "quality" of a film, apart from your own enjoyment?


I get you, and point taken, and I think we just disagree is all

Discussion of the cultural context around a work is very important and really interesting but "a discussion of a works merits and faults" is literally the definition of criticism. Boiling it down to "this is good/bad" is a massive oversimplification of what is a major part of criticism.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Terrible Opinions posted:

It's good to see that your stance is that art cannot have differing levels of quality. You may want to leave a thread primarily for discussing critics and criticism.

Way to misrepresent that dudes argument so you can be catty. Maybe if a discussion of the uses and methods of criticism causes you frustration you could take your own advice.

Somebody mentioned 'Waiting for Godot' and I find that it remains one of my all-time favorite plays because it can be felt as a commentary on so much of the human experience. I find it really funny how whenever the anxiety of their wait gets to Vladimir and Estragon they engage in criticism of themselves, each other, and even the very world around them to pass the time and generate temporal meaning.

Is there anybody around that does any interesting essays about Samuel Beckett's work? I honestly feel like all his plays would resonate very strongly with da youth of today.

Terrible Opinions
Oct 17, 2013





Waffles Inc. posted:

Well, kinda not? I mean, I don't think the purpose of criticism is to "rank" art by varying levels of "quality" if that's what you mean. I think criticism is rad and cool and a great way to talk about films, books, music, visual art, etc and furthermore, that the "purpose" of criticism (so much that there is one) is not to say "this is good" or "this is bad".
Of course not. The purpose is to say why, how, and to what purpose a film succeeds and or fails at presenting itself. Same way I can't "rank" someone's ability to dance, but I can certainly tell you when someone trips and face-plants.

Waffles Inc. posted:

IMO we can and should talk about art and its critics more deeply than "this movie is bad". And I reckon you agree! A good example of that is, for example, Ellis' third Hobbit video. Stood up on its own, it is a criticism of the art that isn't a qualitative criticism, and that's awesome
"This movie is bad" isn't very valuable, but "this is why this movie fails to connect with most people in the way it intended or the way they wanted it to" is a bit of a mouthful and it's much easier to say "here's why this movie is bad".

Waffles Inc.
Jan 20, 2005



Trojan Kaiju posted:

Discussion of the cultural context around a work is very important and really interesting but "a discussion of a works merits and faults" is literally the definition of criticism. Boiling it down to "this is good/bad" is a massive oversimplification of what is a major part of criticism.

I totally agree OP! That said "discussion of merits and faults" doesn't mean art necessarily has "differing levels of quality"

A Gnarlacious Bro posted:

Somebody mentioned 'Waiting for Godot' and I find that it remains one of my all-time favorite plays because it can be felt as a commentary on so much of the human experience. I find it really funny how whenever the anxiety of their wait gets to Vladimir and Estragon they engage in criticism of themselves, each other, and even the very world around them to pass the time and generate temporal meaning.

'Waiting for Godot' is pretty rad I think, and a lot of the Theater of the Absurd influences a lot of modern works that I think are good, like Martin McDonagh. If you like Beckett and haven't already done so, you should check out Brecht as well (speaking of resonating even more strongly today), 'Mother Courage' seems especially relevant

Terrible Opinions posted:

"This movie is bad" isn't very valuable, but "this is why this movie fails to connect with most people in the way it intended or the way they wanted it to" is a bit of a mouthful and it's much easier to say "here's why this movie is bad".

Ah I get you! This makes sense. I guess where I disagree is that saying the first thing means the same as saying the second thing.

KayTee
May 5, 2012

Whachoodoin?


Karloff posted:

But, speaking of stuff I don't like about internet critics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrwM8NQnC48

This is a prime example. Almost everything in it is wrong; it's just so poorly researched. The critic is just chatting nonsense (saying that they were using CGI for Godzilla's breath in the fifties, sixties, seventies when that's NOT CGI, like at all).

It would honestly take five minutes to look this stuff up. But I guess when anyone can self-publish whatever video show they want, this kind of stuff is gonna happen more and more.

This isn't an emptyquote. It is me trying to not write a point-by-point teardown of this video.

It's frustrating that I can't articulate how cross I am at how wrong this video is. This isn't Irate Gamer being unable to use a menu in Tekken, this is wilful ignorance, they're wallowing in their lack of research. If I had a setup I'd become an internet critic overnight just to rip this video apart.

...

Wow. It's like someone weaponised indignation. This could be dangerous in the wrong hands.

Trojan Kaiju
Feb 13, 2012




Waffles Inc. posted:


Ah I get you! This makes sense. I guess where I disagree is that saying the first thing means the same as saying the second thing.

"This is good/bad" is a layman's way of getting to "this is why this succeeds/fails."

Critical video essays are mostly saying the latter with just a bit of the former anyway so it seems like a non issue to me.

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


For people who are bored by this conversation, Mark Brown has a Game Maker's Toolkit episode out.

Waffles Inc.
Jan 20, 2005



Trojan Kaiju posted:

"This is good/bad" is a layman's way of getting to "this is why this succeeds/fails."

I don't think you're wrong in every case, but I think for most people, "this is good/bad" means "I didn't like/I like this thing"

"Succeeding" and "failing" are independent of a person's enjoyment of a thing, if it's possible for art to "succeed" or "fail" at all

Arcsquad12 posted:

For people who are bored by this conversation, Mark Brown has a Game Maker's Toolkit episode out.

hell yeah

Zedd
Jul 6, 2009

I mean, who would have noticed another madman around here?




Arcsquad12 posted:

For people who are bored by this conversation, Mark Brown has a Game Maker's Toolkit episode out.

\[T]/ Horse, But hole!

AriadneThread
Feb 17, 2011

The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.




Waffles Inc. posted:

I don't think you're wrong in every case, but I think for most people, "this is good/bad" means "I didn't like/I like this thing"

"Succeeding" and "failing" are independent of a person's enjoyment of a thing, if it's possible for art to "succeed" or "fail" at all


from a craft perspective it's absolutely possible for art to succeed or fail

if i set out to make a heart-rending tragedy and the reviews come back saying it's the funniest comedy they've ever seen, my art has failed to achieve what i wanted to do even if it's still 'good' art for whatever that means in this conversation

CYBEReris
Dec 15, 2007



When you judge success or failure broadly, individual people have different metrics and are looking for different things going in, usually informed by the contexts of what they already understand and expect tempered by their lived experiences. The consensus can also change radically over time as aspects that may have initially seemed like failings become recontextualized as breakthroughs in new techniques of craft, even after the artist is long dead.

The Hobbit most likely isn't some avant-garde masterpiece waiting to be redeemed like Freddy Got Fingered objectively and definitively is, but success and failure of an artwork is far more difficult to ascertain and fleeting than a focused analysis engaged through a specific lens (or set of lenses).

That's not to say that claiming something "failed based on x standards" isn't totally valid if it's defended well, though. That's just one of the lenses you can engage with, after all.

Mr.Radar
Nov 5, 2005

You guys aren't going to believe this, but that guy is our games teacher.


Nyx Fears has a new video out about a bizarre new indie comedy(?) film called Krystal that's in theaters right now and, well, I'll let the video title fill in the rest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwxC2IitCGY

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1989
I am trash man
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS





So...who's up for another video about Dark Souls?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhWdBhc3Wjc

Groovelord Neato
Dec 6, 2014




me.

Puppy Time
Mar 1, 2005



Waffles Inc. posted:

I don't think you're wrong in every case, but I think for most people, "this is good/bad" means "I didn't like/I like this thing"

"Succeeding" and "failing" are independent of a person's enjoyment of a thing, if it's possible for art to "succeed" or "fail" at all


I feel like this is edging reeeeaaaallly close to "Well, everyone has their own individual opinion and experience, so there's no point in discussing anything in terms of wider appeal."

Which, like, yes, it's super possible to like something that's terrible. I like a lot of works that are pretty garbage on a crafting level, and not because they're trying to break out of norms or whatever, just because they're not really well made. I can very easily say, "These are garbage, here are the ways they are garbage, but they are my garbage and I will be over here rubbing my face on the garbage in glee."

Criticism will obviously have to have SOME framework of standards for good/bad quality. Art is not a natural thing with fundamental laws, it's culturally constructed. At some point, you have to accept that every critic is working with an unspoken assumption of "We are using certain rules and standards for the sake of the discussion."

Todd uses Western Pop and Rock rules for his reviews, not Chinese Opera rules.

Lindsay uses Western Filmography rules, not Bunraku Theatre rules.

This isn't a failing on their parts, nor does it mean that the rules they don't use are bad.

There's a certain amount of value in thinking about WHY the rules are there and whether they can be broken, but that's a question that's separate from works unthinkingly or accidentally breaking rules, or breaking rules intentionally but to poor reception. (Which is itself an ongoing discussion as cultural standards change.)

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1989
I am trash man
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS





So I'm watching through Lindsay Ellis's Hobbit videos and I'm sorry but this is really bugging me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTRUQ-RKfUs#t=1246s
(20:46 if the timestamp doesn't work)

So...what I'm seeing here is a Dragon Priest deciding to use the Tatsumaki Senpukyaku right towards a cliff for some reason, sending himself off said cliff...and our hero just kinda...wacks the back of his knee while he's doing that?

...What?

AriadneThread
Feb 17, 2011

The Devil sounds like smoke and honey. We cannot move. It is too beautiful.




Puppy Time posted:

I feel like this is edging reeeeaaaallly close to "Well, everyone has their own individual opinion and experience, so there's no point in discussing anything in terms of wider appeal."

Which, like, yes, it's super possible to like something that's terrible. I like a lot of works that are pretty garbage on a crafting level, and not because they're trying to break out of norms or whatever, just because they're not really well made. I can very easily say, "These are garbage, here are the ways they are garbage, but they are my garbage and I will be over here rubbing my face on the garbage in glee."

Criticism will obviously have to have SOME framework of standards for good/bad quality. Art is not a natural thing with fundamental laws, it's culturally constructed. At some point, you have to accept that every critic is working with an unspoken assumption of "We are using certain rules and standards for the sake of the discussion."

Todd uses Western Pop and Rock rules for his reviews, not Chinese Opera rules.

Lindsay uses Western Filmography rules, not Bunraku Theatre rules.

This isn't a failing on their parts, nor does it mean that the rules they don't use are bad.

There's a certain amount of value in thinking about WHY the rules are there and whether they can be broken, but that's a question that's separate from works unthinkingly or accidentally breaking rules, or breaking rules intentionally but to poor reception. (Which is itself an ongoing discussion as cultural standards change.)

yeah, i think this is spot on.
i was going to type more but i realized i was just rephrasing what you said

MariusLecter
Sep 5, 2009

NI MUERTE NI MIEDO


Earthbound (SNES) Angry Video Game Nerd: Episode 156: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ5nX0FTH6Q

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


I'm glad we traded out botl with botl but whinier and with even less concrete beliefs

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


How about instead of complaining about the stuff you don't like you add some content as well to try and steer other people into a new conversation? Example:

Well it looks like JonTron didn't learn anything from his timeout. He's literally using South Park logic now.

Arcsquad12 fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Apr 25, 2018

Waffles Inc.
Jan 20, 2005



Alaois posted:

I'm glad we traded out botl with botl but whinier and with even less concrete beliefs

y'know, I wasn't gonna bite on this hook because I don't know you OP, maybe you're having a bad day or something, who knows. but like, maybe chill? what provoked this?

Alaois
Feb 7, 2012

D U S T M A N


Waffles Inc. posted:

y'know, I wasn't gonna bite on this hook because I don't know you OP, maybe you're having a bad day or something, who knows. but like, maybe chill?

i hope you've been working on your omoplata defense motherfucker

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 1989
I am trash man
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS





someone should inform jontron that the simpsons hasn't been funny in like two decades

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


Augus posted:

someone should inform jontron that the simpsons hasn't been funny in like two decades

Let Moviebob do it. While he's been long winded with his Apu videos, he's also not really wrong.

And Bob's Burgers hits the same notes of absurdist humour and working families much better than the Simpsons has. I've been on a binge and it's really good.

A Gnarlacious Bro
Apr 25, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


This is a very rude thread, and very cliquey

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


A Gnarlacious Bro posted:

This is a very rude thread, and very cliquey

The arguments are usually two or three people being pedants. If you want to talk about something, just post it and you'll find that other people likke to pop their heads in when someone other than the ramblers are posting stuff. I don't want to scare people off, and I'm sorry about others making the place uncomfortable and cliquey.

BobbyK
Jun 4, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Augus posted:

someone should inform jontron that the simpsons hasn't been funny in like two decades

Neither has Jontron so I doubt he'll care

Yardbomb
Jul 11, 2011

What's with the eh... bretonnian dance, sir?



Arcsquad12 posted:

How about instead of complaining about the stuff you don't like you add some content as well to try and steer other people into a new conversation? Example:

Well it looks like JonTron didn't learn anything from his timeout. He's literally using South Park logic now.




Also these lame pricks are so pitiful at coming up with new material or arguments that they've STILL just gotta keep on with ~political correctness~ in the year of our lord 2018, even though that phrase hasn't been used in earnest in how loving long, pretty much because they have a choice of that or channer slang by this point, which is usually outright bigoted rather than "You know what I'm sayin" bigoted like the "PC GONE MAD " crap.

Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Apr 25, 2018

Arcsquad12
Mar 4, 2013

I Love Satan


New Movie Nights: Vulassic Park!

Also, I'm not suggesting you go and watch it, but dumbass Doug put up a review of Starship Troopers. Considering he doesn't know how satire works, I don't know what he's expecting out of a Verhoeven film.

Hemingway To Go!
Nov 10, 2008

im stupider then dog shit, i dont give a shit, and i dont give a fuck, and i will never shut the fuck up, and i'll always Respect my enemys.
- ernest hemingway


Mr.Radar posted:

Nyx Fears has a new video out about a bizarre new indie comedy(?) film called Krystal that's in theaters right now and, well, I'll let the video title fill in the rest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwxC2IitCGY

Say what you will about Night Mind, but he's helped promote Nyx Fears a lot. Her video style has improved a lot from what they were. I hope she eventually does some more critical essays on good movies again, since she watches movies that a lot of other youtubers won't touch.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016



Augus posted:

someone should inform jontron that the simpsons hasn't been funny in like two decades

That reminds me that one of my favorite video essays is Super Eyepatch Wolf's video on The Simpsons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqFNbCcyFkk

KayTee
May 5, 2012

Whachoodoin?


MariusLecter posted:

Earthbound (SNES) Angry Video Game Nerd: Episode 156: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ5nX0FTH6Q

I had to drop out of this video (which I watched early on Amazon Prime BTW - just throwing that out there) near the end because I kinda want to experience the thing first hand, but also I don't have the time or the patience to pour into a 20+ year old hard-as-balls SNES JRPG.

Can anyone recommend a good video LP of this?

Tired Moritz
Mar 25, 2012

wish Lowtax would get tired of YOUR POSTS

(n o i c e)


I wouldn't call earthbound hard at all.

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Miss Wallace
Feb 24, 2013

The nights will never be the same. ARARARAR!


Arcsquad12 posted:

New Movie Nights: Vulassic Park!

Also, I'm not suggesting you go and watch it, but dumbass Doug put up a review of Starship Troopers. Considering he doesn't know how satire works, I don't know what he's expecting out of a Verhoeven film.

Starship Troopers pales in comparison to the true satire of Vulassic Park.

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