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Yup, it was actually pretty unique to be quoting Korngold in 1977. This isn’t the gotcha you think it is. Just like how the story and visual aesthetic of Star Wars was a pastiche of various elements, so was the score. At a time when sci-fi movies were going deep on heavily synthesized scores, it was very original for Williams to be borrowing in a freewheeling way from Korngold, Wagner, Stravinsky, Holst etc. Musical quotation is as old as the Western musical canon itself- it doesn’t render something unoriginal.
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Sep 1, 2020 16:07
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Hollismason posted:There's a certain charm that the original trilogy has that the new trilogy just never managed to capture. I mean they definitely tried but it never quite took hold.
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Sep 1, 2020 16:20
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Jewmanji posted:Yup, it was actually pretty unique to be quoting Korngold in 1977. This isn’t the gotcha you think it is. Just like how the story and visual aesthetic of Star Wars was a pastiche of various elements, so was the score. At a time when sci-fi movies were going deep on heavily synthesized scores, it was very original for Williams to be borrowing in a freewheeling way from Korngold, Wagner, Stravinsky, Holst etc. Musical quotation is as old as the Western musical canon itself- it doesn’t render something unoriginal. It's not so much a gotcha, but homages are by definition not original - they are a continuation, not the beginning. As the Premake showed, nothing in star wars is original or unique. And that's totally separate from whether it's good/bad
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Sep 1, 2020 16:32
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It’s reductive to call the entire work an “homage”. All musical works are part of a historical continuum. Calling the music to Star Wars “unoriginal” is laughable. Quotation and homage can also be used in extremely novel ways. Star Wars (the first film) is extremely original especially because of how it quotes and repurposes other media. We take that type of thing for given now, but it was extremely novel at the time.
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Sep 1, 2020 16:38
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Payndz posted:The OT (and the PT) originated from the imagination and influences of one guy. The ST came from a corporate committee looking to get a rapid ROI from the IP they acquired from that guy, while completely dumping all his own ideas for where the story might go next in favour of lazy nostalgi-wank. It's hardly surprising it's charmless. worse is the ST isn't really about anything. It has story events but no purpose or meaning. It came close with what RJ was trying to convey with Last Jedi (e.g. everyone can become a hero, where you came from or who your parents are don't matter, etc) but Disney quickly walked all that back and made it irrelevant in the third installment. What was the message of the ST trilogy... what were we supposed to take away from it? OT: universal love for all over powers evil, our children provide an avenue for redemption or able to correct the mistakes of the old generation, etc. PT: attachment, fear, and greed can lead to self destruction and makes you susceptible to manipulation from evil forces not just for yourself but for your whole society ST: ???
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Sep 1, 2020 17:20
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G-III posted:
Not so sure about that. I think it is more about how liberalism is doomed in the west. Maybe that is what you are saying on second thought
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Sep 1, 2020 17:21
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euphronius posted:Not so sure about that. I think it is more about how liberalism is doomed in the west. Yeah it's a statement trying to encompass both anakin's downfall as a jedi and the downfall of the entire galactic republic. Your statement is a bit more direct.
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Sep 1, 2020 17:25
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I enjoy both Solo and Rogue One and they're basically opposite interpretations of how to make a Star Wars movie that takes place in the same universe as the original trilogy. Somehow they both worked for me. Neither are "great movies" though.
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Sep 1, 2020 17:34
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The message of the ST was that it's virtuous to like star wars. You were supposed to take away that you should feel good for liking star wars
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Sep 1, 2020 17:35
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Solo just never grabbed me at any point. I think I stopped watching it twice before I finally finished it. I also found the droid revolution thing frankly upsetting. First they touch on something that was better unspoken - the whole droid-slavery thing - then they immediately tossed it for a lovely reference. So Disney. otoh I quite liked Rogue One, but please god, someone make a 'no tentacle torture' cut TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Sep 1, 2020 |
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Sep 1, 2020 17:35
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No Mods No Masters posted:Every day I wait solemnly for the contrarian pro star wars 9 hot takes to begin. I sense the vile seed germinating in the dark earth I wouldn’t call it contrarianism, but if you skip directly from Episode 6 to Episode 9 - consciously ignoring the other two - it works much better because it’s absolutely insane. Basically: while Episode 9 is not good, a huge part of its negative reception is due to all the baggage from 7 and 8 dragging it down. Like, FN‘s weirdly abortive storyline would be less of an issue if he wasn’t the protagonist and love interest of Episode 7. It not fully an issue with 9 itself.
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Sep 1, 2020 17:49
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Glottis posted:I enjoy both Solo and Rogue One and they're basically opposite interpretations of how to make a Star Wars movie that takes place in the same universe as the original trilogy. Somehow they both worked for me. Neither are "great movies" though.
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Sep 1, 2020 17:54
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No Mods No Masters posted:Every day I wait solemnly for the contrarian pro star wars 9 hot takes to begin. I sense the vile seed germinating in the dark earth
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Sep 1, 2020 20:16
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thrawn527 posted:- "Well we've gotta go back to Tatooine. That was in the first movie!" (I don't believe it was ever mentioned that Jabba was on Tatooine before that, right? Even if you treat his ANH scene as canon at that point, which, when they made Episode VI, it wasn't, that doesn't mean he was from there, just that he tracked Han down to Tatooine.) I never thought of this but yeah, it makes even less sense for Han to be hanging out in the prime gangster bar on the planet where Jabba lives if he is trying to lay low because he owes him money: "oh poo poo one of Jabba's assassins just walked in Chewie!" "ROOOAARRR" "Yes I know this place has the best chicken wings that's why I relented on coming here"
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Sep 1, 2020 20:22
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Triclops is Rey's dad, Triocolus was the fake one that got merked by Robo-Leia's lazer eyes.
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Sep 1, 2020 20:52
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Vinylshadow posted:Falcon's atmosphere speed is 1500 kph under lando's ownership, and 1050 kph later on, same as T65B/C-model X-Wing models used during the Original trilogy era So uh...1/3rd the speed of a modern fighter. Maybe before dorks start making up all their stupid rpg stats they should take a second to google the subject
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Sep 1, 2020 21:00
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DeimosRising posted:So uh...1/3rd the speed of a modern fighter. Maybe before dorks start making up all their stupid rpg stats they should take a second to google the subject
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Sep 1, 2020 21:10
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DeimosRising posted:So uh...1/3rd the speed of a modern fighter. Maybe before dorks start making up all their stupid rpg stats they should take a second to google the subject its designed for space though, it makes sense it wouldnt be fast in atmosphere.
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Sep 1, 2020 21:11
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Jewmanji posted:Yup, it was actually pretty unique to be quoting Korngold in 1977.
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Sep 2, 2020 00:45
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It wasn't that bold a choice in 1977 either... clever maybe, not bold to clarify, i think lucas was the bold one, williams was clever in understanding what lucas was doing Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Sep 2, 2020 |
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Sep 2, 2020 01:03
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G-III posted:OT: universal love for all over powers evil, our children provide an avenue for redemption or able to correct the mistakes of the old generation, etc. i would argue this is very wrong, love is kinda a bad thing in the ot faith and compassion are much more important.
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Sep 2, 2020 10:54
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Boyega unloads on Disney, good for him. https://deadline.com/2020/09/john-boyega-disney-marginalized-diverse-characters-star-wars-sequels-1234568684/amp/   Also, Mando 2 is Oct 30th just in time for the election riots and revolution. https://www.engadget.com/amp/the-mandalorian-season-two-release-date-disney-plus-142849793.html
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Sep 2, 2020 16:45
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Good on Boyega. gently caress Hollywood decorum. That's how we get Weinstein's.
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Sep 2, 2020 16:50
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DeimosRising posted:So uh...1/3rd the speed of a modern fighter. Maybe before dorks start making up all their stupid rpg stats they should take a second to google the subject I forget where I read this but someone had crunched the numbers on weapon ranges and the heatsink stuff and realized like a single US battalion circa WWII with air support would basically steamroll and melt the entire Battletech setting. 
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Sep 2, 2020 17:20
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DeimosRising posted:So uh...1/3rd the speed of a modern fighter. Maybe before dorks start making up all their stupid rpg stats they should take a second to google the subject Space dogfights were based on World War-era dogfights, while the capital ships copied naval combat, to the point they literally "sink" ships when they're destroyed, like the Executor plowing into the surface of the Death Star It's an interesting mix that I wish they used more - the laughable bomber scene in TLJ was the closest we got
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Sep 2, 2020 17:20
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Vinylshadow posted:Space dogfights were based on World War-era dogfights, while the capital ships copied naval combat, to the point they literally "sink" ships when they're destroyed, like the Executor plowing into the surface of the Death Star I like it, and in general I feel like a lot of parts in the RotJ final battle and that opening fight in Revenge of the Sith do a great job of creating that feel while still having lots of shots that establish it feeling like the ships are in space and not really giving a poo poo about gravity. I never realized how conveniently like a ship being sunk the Executor colliding with the Death Star was til you just posted this now. It does make me wonder like, how say you create artificial gravity, you have gravity happening inside your ship. Then very suddenly artificial gravity goes away, would the sudden loss of gravity in it while it's moving through space not shift it a bit? There was a walkback/justification from someone involve in Last Jedi regarding the bomber scene. It was like, REALLY stupid but the idea was that in Star Wars bombs are all pre-locked on and guided in some way when they're let out which is why they "fall" to that huge first order ship. So normally they wouldn't have to get that close to a ship to bomb it at all, but then said ship's defenses were so good that it was the only way or whatever. I don't know, you could still make a way cooler and less dumb in execution battle scene even with those rules in place.
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Sep 2, 2020 17:28
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Neo Rasa posted:There was a walkback/justification from someone involve in Last Jedi regarding the bomber scene. It was like, REALLY stupid but the idea was that in Star Wars bombs are all pre-locked on and guided in some way when they're let out which is why they "fall" to that huge first order ship. So normally they wouldn't have to get that close to a ship to bomb it at all, but then said ship's defenses were so good that it was the only way or whatever. I thought the justification for the bombs was "they were falling in the ships gravity and kept that momentum when entering zero-g, hence why they "fall" onto the flying pizza slice" or something
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Sep 2, 2020 17:43
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Vinylshadow posted:I thought the justification for the bombs was "they were falling in the ships gravity and kept that momentum when entering zero-g, hence why they "fall" onto the flying pizza slice" or something That's certainly what makes the most sense to me, and it's been brought up multiple times, so I don't know why people have such a hard time with it. Now, why you would design bombers to do that, and not put guidance systems on your bombs, eh, different question altogether really, but that's pretty clearly what's happening in the movie. Anyone complaining about the bombs "falling in space" in that scene don't appear to be thinking too much about it.
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Sep 2, 2020 17:48
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Way back in the TIE Fighter sim bombs were very powerful, but slow and could be shot down. So naturally you'd get as close as you could. Makes perfect sense to me.
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Sep 2, 2020 18:06
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-SHiKV8ZhQ
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Sep 2, 2020 18:13
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Aren't they above a planet then anyway? I thought the bombs were just falling into the gravity well of the planet and hitting the capital ship that was in between.
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Sep 2, 2020 19:19
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The problem with that scene - and with a lot of the ST - is that it has the aesthetics and pacing of a marvel superhero action scene while only aping certain elements of the WW2 movies that actually informed Star Wars. The combination comes off jarringly odd at times. In Episode IV, the trench run scene, you have Gold Leader (the Y-Wing guy) chanting "Stay on target, stay on target" even as his wingmen are shot to poo poo. Taken in isolation he looks like a dumbass. But there's a lot of context provided in the movie that informs the scene. *The Death Star is framed via the entire movie as a threat that MUST be destroyed, therefore being worth the sacrifice *The only way to destroy the Death Star is to make an 'impossible shot' using a targeting computer *Gold Leader is shown explicitly concentrating on his targeting computer while flying absolutely straight He HAS to fly straight, and the mission is important enough to take the risks. This is all a direct rip from Dam Busters, as is well known, but its also a common trope in Bomber Movies: in the final stages of a WW2 bombing run, formations had to fly absolutely straight and level to use their bombsights accurately, frequently resulting in high casualties from flak owing to predictability. The scene where the Millenium Falcon is attacked by TIE fighters is also a direct rip from bomber movies, with banter between the gunners as fighters attack in groups from unpredictable angles. Compare that to TLJ, where some guy shouts 'Stay in formation!' during the bombing run scene. This is taken from WW2 bomber movies, where the bombers stayed in strict formations to concentrate their turret firepower and to drop more bombs on specific targets. However what the movie actually *shows* you is that the bombers all collide with eachother and blow up, making that pilot look like a furious dumbass. Elements from WW2 movies were strapped on to a scene that was not conceived in their spirit nor provides the framework to make those elements make sense. Couple this with the movie showing you that this was a literal suicide run - there was ZERO chance of any of these bombers making it out alive, since they were destroyed by their own bombs - and for the purpose of, uh, 'That thing's a fleet killer!'. For which Poe is *explicitly* upbraided as the whole thing not being worth it. The movie codes these people as having suicided for *nothing*, and never even provides a reason *why* it had to be a suicide run - fly higher, idiots - except ex post facto justifications and rationalizations that the moviegoer has to concoct themselevs. TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Sep 2, 2020 |
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Sep 2, 2020 20:19
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Bombers getting chopped up and crashing into each other is also right out of WW2 bomber movies. And the last bomber gets caught in the blast because it has no pilot to pull up after dropping its payload.
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Sep 2, 2020 21:29
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It really is amazing that years later there's still no consensus about the basic facts of what occurred in the action scenes in TLJ. Sometimes its hard to put your finger on why the film is a bit confusing in the moment until you read all of the various interpretations in this thread and realize even the basic mechanics of the film are built on a foundation of sand. Maybe this phenomenon is more common in blockbusters that I haven't seen, but it's new to me and pretty bizarre. I guess making a coherent film in the editing stage is actually harder than it seems?
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Sep 2, 2020 21:34
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Cartoon Man posted:Boyega unloads on Disney, good for him. Also from the same interview: He is on a breathless roll now, breaking his long corporate omerta to touch on the unthinking, systemic mistreatment of black characters in blockbusters (“They’re always scared. They’re always fricking sweating”) and what he sees as the relative salvage job that returnee director JJ Abrams performed on The Rise Of Skywalker (“Everybody needs to leave my boy alone. He wasn’t even supposed to come back and try to save your poo poo”) That implies to me the choice to cut back on Kelly Marie Tran and him wasn't JJ's choice but from higher up
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Sep 2, 2020 21:42
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Jewmanji posted:It really is amazing that years later there's still no consensus about the basic facts of what occurred in the action scenes in TLJ. Sometimes its hard to put your finger on why the film is a bit confusing in the moment until you read all of the various interpretations in this thread and realize even the basic mechanics of the film are built on a foundation of sand. Maybe this phenomenon is more common in blockbusters that I haven't seen, but it's new to me and pretty bizarre. I guess making a coherent film in the editing stage is actually harder than it seems? In the directors commentary for TLJ Johnson says the original shot after the pan down from the crawl is of Finn waking up. He says they changed it because the original opening just didn't work. Seeing as in the final version Finn wakes up after the battle/escape has happened, I'm thinking things got re-edited and shifted around so it really is difficult to know what is happening when, because the jigsaw pieces have all been scrambled. I'm guessing Finn was in some shots/scenes in the opening (maybe in the room with Leia?) but by cutting him out and moving his first scene of the film, this sequence becomes very hard to understand. Like in the finished product even if the bombers retreat when ordered to do so, they're so slow I don't think they could make it to safety anyway. But maybe that wasn't a problem in the original version of the scene? People talk about TLJ like it's the one Disney Star Wars film that didn't get hosed with, but I'm of the theory that it did get hosed with, but Johnson and others just didn't make a big stink about it so we don't know. SMG has talked about when they explain the tracking device to Poe, the scene is edited strangely and when characters talk you can't see their mouths, so it may be ADR or a change in the edit, so maybe that sub-plot was originally totally different. But seeing as nobody has complained about reshoots or re-edits, we don't have in the inside info from say Rogue One or Solo.
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Sep 2, 2020 22:01
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Zas posted:It wasn't that bold a choice in 1977 either... clever maybe, not bold 2001 had an almost exclusively classical score in 1968, which was Lucas' inspiration (or so I've heard). Williams was specifically imitating Korngold, Wagner, and Holst, in the same way that Giacchino has been specifically trying to imitate Williams for his entire career.
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Sep 2, 2020 22:02
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It seems like 50% of holdos lines are ADRed
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Sep 2, 2020 22:04
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They had to edit out all the space and laser noises she's making.
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Sep 2, 2020 22:16
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Twitter is using that "save your poo poo" quote to attack Johnson/TLJ but it feels more like Trevorrow getting fired/saving the poo poo of ROS. And of course him being scared and screaming is the first image we ever saw of new star wars. Hard to attribute that jab at any particular movie but that also seems to miss his points. He deserved better and it's cool he's speaking his mind now after holding it in for half a decade.
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Sep 2, 2020 22:23
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