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It wasn’t a prank call.
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May 27, 2021 16:52
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People kind of ignore that Poe does almost the exact same thing in the opening scene of TFA. He pretends he can't hear Kylo as delaying tactic, although less purposefully, and makes fun of his helmet.
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May 27, 2021 17:01
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euphronius posted:It wasn’t a prank call. That's not the important part of my post
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May 27, 2021 17:08
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Snoke was just a stepping stone to get Kylo from Jedi Academy to First Order, he didn't need to do anything more than annoy Kylo, so that he can kill him and show that he's more complicated than 'irredeemable badman' or 'tortured good guy'. He fulfilled his role in the series. We got more Snoke in IX and comics, and all their ideas are stupid. It's like how Han Solo should have stayed dead from the end of ESB, but people wanted more Han Solo, so we got a zombie character in ROTJ; doing the han solo moves, saying the han solo lines, but having no purpose to the greater plot than to make audiences happy that he's there.
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May 27, 2021 17:10
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BiggestBatman posted:That's not the important part of my post Fiar enough I don’t Understand why characterization “pushes peoples buttons” and - if it does- why we or I should care
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May 27, 2021 17:12
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euphronius posted:Fiar enough If you dont care you go to dont care jail and boy lemme tell you, you dont wanna be in dont care jail. The scene ties into two common complaints about tlj: poe's arc and it's general meanspiritedness (that's one's mostly focused on Luke). You don't have to care about those things, but you are trapped in here with us, the caring folks.
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May 27, 2021 17:15
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BiggestBatman posted:If you dont care you go to dont care jail and boy lemme tell you, you dont wanna be in dont care jail. That makes sense (tho I obv don’t agree )
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May 27, 2021 17:16
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euphronius posted:That makes sense (tho I obv don’t agree ) hope you dont mind if I consider this a win for my side then
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May 27, 2021 17:17
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Timeless Appeal posted:People kind of ignore that Poe does almost the exact same thing in the opening scene of TFA. He pretends he can't hear Kylo as delaying tactic, although less purposefully, and makes fun of his helmet. Yeah which fucks me up as I rather enjoy the little joke at the start there. So it's not that he's jokey - it's the delivery and the stuff he's saying which I find to be horrible and unfunny.
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May 27, 2021 17:40
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All of the dialogue from that first jakku scene is incredibly clunky even by star wars standards. Kylo and von Sydow's lines are bizarrely disjointed - they are obviously at cross purposes in the story, but it feels like two different conversations happening at once
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May 27, 2021 17:52
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Yeah, I was prepared to be generous with the movie, but the very first dialogue I was immediately thinking "They don't seem like they're actually having a conversation."
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May 27, 2021 17:58
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Neurolimal posted:Snoke was just a stepping stone to get Kylo from Jedi Academy to First Order, he didn't need to do anything more than annoy Kylo, so that he can kill him and show that he's more complicated than 'irredeemable badman' or 'tortured good guy'. He fulfilled his role in the series. the takeaway is that the sequel trilogy was a bad idea that shouldn’t have been made from the start
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May 27, 2021 18:01
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Neurolimal posted:Snoke was just a stepping stone to get Kylo from Jedi Academy to First Order, he didn't need to do anything more than annoy Kylo, so that he can kill him and show that he's more complicated than 'irredeemable badman' or 'tortured good guy'. He fulfilled his role in the series. Maybe it's because people were tricked into believing that this character that shows up and has lines in this film is important, and were a bit confused when he showed up in the next film and has even more lines and seems even more important until he is unceremoniously offed with seemingly nothing changing for anybody.
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May 27, 2021 19:08
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Grendels Dad posted:Maybe it's because people were tricked into believing that this character that shows up and has lines in this film is important, and were a bit confused when he showed up in the next film and has even more lines and seems even more important until he is unceremoniously offed with seemingly nothing changing for anybody. His death results in Kylo being the new Big Evil Force Man and true leader of First Order Nobody was 'tricked', he was a bit character in TFA (3 minutes in a 135 minute movie) and was slightly more important in TLJ (8:30, 152 minute movie) , it's not on the movies if you assumed taller = more Final Boss IMO.
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May 27, 2021 19:24
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Neurolimal posted:His death results in Kylo being the new Big Evil Force Man and true leader of First Order This is dumb, op. If counting the minutes and saying Snoke is no more important than, say, Unkar Plutt or whatever is the way you wanna go, I'm out.
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May 27, 2021 19:32
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Grendels Dad posted:This is dumb, op. If counting the minutes and saying Snoke is no more important than, say, Unkar Plutt or whatever is the way you wanna go, I'm out. He's pretty important, evident by him being the focal point of TLJ's climactic scene. My point is that he wasn't a sacred cow integral to the story that had to be preserved for the final boss fight. He's some rear end in a top hat manipulating petit nazis and throwing around a mentally unstable kid. He gets murdered by his protege as is usually the case for sith, making way for the far more interesting antagonist. He's Count Dooku. Were you that interested in seeing Luuke's hand grow into an evil puppet badman on the big screen? Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 19:40 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 19:36
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^I mean I do disagree with this, Snoke is clearly a Palpatine analogue. The ST is set up to really mirror the beats of the OT. The thing that makes it stand out is that thy actually go, "Okay, what if Vader actually did kill Palpatine and try to rule the galaxy himself?" But you're right that he's a means to an end because so was Palpy. He only exists for the purpose of Vader and Luke's arc.^ Is there any difference between Snoke's depiction TLJ and the nearly two decades in which the Emperor didn't even have a name, backstory, or clear motivation beyond vague evil? Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 19:43 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 19:41
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May 27, 2021 19:46
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Timeless Appeal posted:Is there any difference between Snoke's depiction TLJ and the nearly two decades in which the Emperor didn't even have a name, backstory, or clear motivation beyond vague evil? There isn't any major difference in how they're depicted as characters, but they both represent their forces and how the films define those is different. The Empire has a clear and straightforward understandable ideology by grace of being an empire and being named the Empire, while The First Order is only defined by being anti-whatever-the-good-guys-are. The Emperor is pro-himself and his power. Snoke is just anti-Republic and anti-Leia... which isn't helpful when we don't know what they represent either. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 00:37 on May 28, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 19:51
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Timeless Appeal posted:Is there any difference between Snoke's depiction TLJ and the nearly two decades in which the Emperor didn't even have a name, backstory, or clear motivation beyond vague evil? In the movies we get about the same amount of information, but the Lucas-written prologue to the first movie's novelization provided some backstory, even if it ended up changing wildly by the end of the trilogy (let alone the prequels).  But the movies are designed to be "lived-in" in the sense that they don't need to explain everything about them to the audience. Lucas specifically designed them to be movies from another culture rather than just about one, to capture the feeling he got when watching Kurosawa movies for the first time as an American.
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May 27, 2021 20:23
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Neurolimal posted:He's pretty important, evident by him being the focal point of TLJ's climactic scene. My point is that he wasn't a sacred cow integral to the story that had to be preserved for the final boss fight. He's some rear end in a top hat manipulating petit nazis and throwing around a mentally unstable kid. He gets murdered by his protege as is usually the case for sith, making way for the far more interesting antagonist. He's Count Dooku.
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May 27, 2021 20:51
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Jewmanji posted:That’s my point though. Cameron was able to make a great sequel to Alien even though there was literally no plan for a sequel whatsoever when the original was made. My point is that you don’t need to know where your story is going when you start it. I’m not saying that having a plan and sticking with it wouldn’t have helped the sequels, but I don’t think that was the underlying issue that a lot people seem to think is at the heart of the problem. He made a great sequel because he ripped off Starship Troopers.
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May 27, 2021 21:02
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Halloween Jack posted:The problem is not that Snoke needs more characterization, but that the First Order needs more characterization. Everything about it is just vaguely, superficially fascist, except this Supreme Leader who has Palpatine's powers and dresses like an opulent pope. What's up with all that? I mean that's around as much characterization as the Empire ever gets.
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May 27, 2021 21:18
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Robot Style posted:In the movies we get about the same amount of information, but the Lucas-written prologue to the first movie's novelization provided some backstory, even if it ended up changing wildly by the end of the trilogy (let alone the prequels).
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May 27, 2021 21:25
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The empire doenst need much more characterization than what it gets on the OT: its an authoritarian regime lead by an evil powerful wizard who destroyed the republic that existed before. Its enough. You dont need to ask too many questions about it for the movies to make sense Plus the PT gave us the story of how it came to be The First Order (much like The Resistance too) gets throw on us with no explanation or context and is just hard to make sense of it. The empire was beaten on the last movie, so who are these guys, why are they there, how come they are so powerful (more powerful than the Empire itself), what the gently caress is going on? etc etc
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May 27, 2021 21:26
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If Episode 9 went through with Kylo leading the First Order in some unsuspected way that wasn't really like the Empire or the Republic or bad in its own way, it could have been interesting and retroactively made the "surprise, we killed the final boss where you thought it wouldn't happen" much better, but Disney listens to stupid criticisms of the PT and thinks that "politics" was the issue, so, oh well. We just ended up getting a movie that made every single sequel completely unwatchable.
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May 27, 2021 21:33
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Maxwell Lord posted:I mean that's around as much characterization as the Empire ever gets. Like, we know this about the empire: 1. It was a Republic before the Emperor took it over 2. The Emperor just dissolved the Senate, the last fig-leaf of rule by the governed in his Empire 3. To avoid ceding any power to a bureaucracy, the Empire will now be a decentralized government where governors have broad powers over vast regions of the galaxy, and individual planets are client states dominated by fear of invasion. 4. This is ludicrously loving expensive, and the Emperor plans to get around that with a superweapon that can obliterate any planet anywhere in the galaxy. 5. There are different branches and factions of the Imperial military whose leaders have differing opinions about this. 6. They're all afraid of the Emperor's hatchetman, a cyborg wizard who defected from the Jedi Order. 7. There's a Rebellion which is gaining sympathy and legitimacy. It's a highly organized movement with standardized weapons, uniforms, formal chains of command, etc. 8. Some now-former senators were aristocrats. Senators like Princess Leia aid the Rebellion under the cover of diplomatic and humanitarian activities, which at least partly explains how it's an organized resistance with serious military hardware. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 21:53 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 21:34
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People don’t read or discount the opening crawls. They are part of the movie too Here is anh It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire. During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire’s ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet. Pursued by the Empire’s sinister agents, Princess Leia races home aboard her starship, custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy.… Like wise the crawl from TFA is also descriptive I am bolding some stuff I think is important Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed. With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy. Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts.… ….. So just from that we know who the FO the republic and the resistance are and that the resistance is related to but distinct from the republic You do have to infer quickly that the FO and the republic are nominal enemies but that becomes explicit quickly.
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May 27, 2021 21:48
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Plus in the OT the Empire was just the established status quo, and the question of how it came about was eventually elaborated upon in the prequels. Snoke is the guy who ruined everything for the heroes we knew, that's a story the audience's gonna want to hear.
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May 27, 2021 21:48
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You also have to infer that liea wants luke to destroy the FO but again I think that is an easy inference
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May 27, 2021 21:51
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I've said it before but it should have been resistance versus republic. Kylo is a loyalist that is secretly also a dark sider. In place of the starkiller blowing up the planets you can have a big mask-off reveal and bring out the stormtroopers or whatever There are so many simple tweaks like this that are superficial but would clean things up for the people that care and still set the table for a neoclassical "rebel underdogs versus dominant galactic-wide government" dynamic. They just didnt trust anyone to care - xwing, tie fighter, come visit the theme park
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May 27, 2021 21:55
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euphronius posted:Luke Skywalker has vanished. The First Order "rose from the ashes of the Empire." What does that mean? Did the Empire just continue in diminished form after Palpatine's death? Is the FO the government of a lot of planets? Leia is leading a RESISTANCE with the support of the REPUBLIC. What's the distinction? The Republic, by necessity, also rose from the ashes of the Empire; what's its relationship with the FO? Why aren't they at full-scale war? Is the Republic supporting a subversive Resistance in FO territory, or openly supporting a partisan movement against FO occupation? It's muddled either way, because we don't see the FO actually occupying/governing territory beyond Starkiller Base. Compare this to ANH where the Tattooine is clearly under military occupation, while actual governance is quite loose. And that's just the opening crawl. There's also stuff like where FN comes from. The FO forcibly recruits children--so do they conduct raids, or buy slaves, or formally rule a lot of planets and have a conscription system?
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May 27, 2021 22:08
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Hux's speech does a dece job setting up that First Order is a reactionary nostalgia tour, and makes the fact that they don't stand for much a point than a flaw IMO; this dude who grew up post-empire is adorning himself in dead symbols and ranting about the Republic's lies. He has nothing new to offer the people listening in his big moment. It's far from great writing (it doesn't say much beyond "we're evil badmen, the republic are wrong and liars!") but I think it's barely competent enough to mirror the other millenial character's dissatisfaction with the life foisted upon them (Kylo failing to live up to his families' achievements, Rey's impoverished life scavenging from the last generation's messes, Finn's estrangement from the First Order cause) I would have been more interested in another scene or two of the Republic clearly failing to improve upon the Empire or Old Republic (beyond the obvious implications of a place like Jakku existing & allowing Empire remnants to fester) to justify its destruction. As-is, from the perspective of droids (pretty big part of both prior trilogies), the Republic is quite a better place; Droids operate in the Resistance independently (the spy), they receive medical care instead of being scrapped (C3-PO), and are allowed to retire (R2-D2). Quite a step up from being brainwashed, massacred, and enslaved.
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May 27, 2021 22:13
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Halloween Jack posted:This raises a lot of basic questions that the movie doesn't answer. People have been asking these questions for over half a decade now and the answers are always vague and unclear (or found on a denny's placemat). The real answer is that the movie doesn't care because it thinks (perhaps mostly rightly) the audience doesn't care.The priority is to serve up comfort food and run an ad for the idea of "there's new star wars". This could be more apparent than in the cliffhanger scene - it was only meant to have a shelf life of two years, and in fact is just reshot in the next movie
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May 27, 2021 22:19
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Honestly TFA probably should have had even less explanation of the background. Clearly the movie is rolling its eyes at the idea that you would have to justify the star war. And in the event rian just went ahead and deleted the republic offscreen in the next movie anyway
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May 27, 2021 22:35
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Halloween Jack posted:This raises a lot of basic questions that the movie doesn't answer. It's not explained in the movie, but the rationale they used during production was that the First Order was the equivalent of a group of Nazis fleeing to Argentina after the war and then working together to rebuild the Reich. It's the kind of movie problem that's caused by overfamiliarity with the story. Even though it doesn't appear in the text of the movie, everyone on the production was aware of this line of thinking for the First Order, so it didn't raise any red flags that it was missing.
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May 27, 2021 22:36
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No Mods No Masters posted:Honestly TFA probably should have had even less explanation of the background. Clearly the movie is rolling its eyes at the idea that you would have to justify the star war. And in the event rian just went ahead and deleted the republic offscreen in the next movie anyway The republic was deleted on screen about 60% of the way through TFA
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May 27, 2021 22:38
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Jerkface posted:The republic was deleted on screen about 60% of the way through TFA People always say this, but I think it's been established in star wars that there are enough planets that destroying the headquarters planet wouldn't destroy an entire political entity. It certainly didn't for the first order. I think the republic could have easily still been in play in a theoretical alternative star wars 8, it was really only the tlj opening crawl that closed out the option. No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 22:44 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 22:40
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No Mods No Masters posted:People always say this, but I think it's been established in star wars that there are enough planets that destroying the headquarters planet wouldn't destroy an entire political entity. It certainly didn't for the first order. This is like a tactical realism argument. TFA goes to great lengths to explain that firing starkiller at the republic government system will destroy the republic, and then when it happens Finn and all the people watching are like "Ah gently caress the republic got blowed up, its gone!!" . So like, at that point theres no republic, theres a bunch of loose galactic systems which dont have standing armies cuz the republic forbade it. A galaxy in which the republic is like an entity that everyone wants to engage with and which becomes an active part of the fighting is not one the ST wanted to explore, as JJ and Lucasfilm were more interested in getting back to a plucky rebel dynamic. The cold war / rebels as a bunch of spec ops war crimers dynamic setup in TFA could have been more interesting if they engaged with the politics of it but as we know they didnt wanna.
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May 27, 2021 23:11
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Yeah I just don't agree, I haven't seen the movie recently enough to recall finn's lines but after seeing 7 before 8 my impression was it was roughly a 'space pearl harbor' deal where the Republic had suffered a huge setback but not to the point of obliteration, and then so did the first order shortly afterwards. You could go any way you wanted with it really, it was a cipher just like the rest of the film. Ultimately rian was the one who decided the (stupid) resolution of it all
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May 27, 2021 23:26
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