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FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014




Ian is right, of course. Linus is also right that the ship has sailed on people saying it right.

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priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Using Transfers is good too because it can ignore the bus width which would cause the bits/bytes per second to be wildly different.

I occasionally get informed by friends on how pcie works due to LTT videos despite actually working on pcie devices for almost 10 years but I just smile and go ďoh yeah thatís interestingĒ or gently reeducate them (linus thinks pcie gen3 uses 8b/10b coding for example and even then does the overhead calculation wrong)

Itís just stuff to make people who donít know the details feel like they do and that makes them feel good and smart so they keep watching.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



How does that even come up?

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


pedantic doctor guy irate over a thing that happens every day, including by the people selling the memory
vs
tech channel that regularly fucks up the technical details

truth in the middle I guess?


but also like, if an official product description says something has "16GB 4266 MHz LPDDR4", then is it Linus's job to correct it?

Fame Douglas
Nov 20, 2013

RELY NOT ON MY HONOR!!! FOR WHEN I OFFER MY WORD OF BOND, I TAKE NOT THAT VOW TO HEART!! CASUALLY, I BRING SHAME TO MY HOUSEHOLD AND RUIN TO THOSE WHO RELY ON MY COMMITMENT, BY SHIRKING MY AVOWED DUTY

Reasonable centrist position: Don't watch LTT.

mewse
May 2, 2006




Perplx posted:

People use MHz and megatransfers interchangeably, they are wrong but I agree the train has left the station long ago and you can't fix it. Its like making hard drive manufacturer's use base 2 terabytes instead of base 10.

Helter Skelter
Feb 10, 2004

BEARD OF HAVOC



Perplx posted:

People use MHz and megatransfers interchangeably, they are wrong but I agree the train has left the station long ago and you can't fix it. Its like making hard drive manufacturer's use base 2 terabytes instead of base 10.

Or gun nerds getting annoyed at people calling magazines clips. Yes, it's technically wrong, but the vast majority of normal people don't know and aren't going to care no matter what you do.

Kerbtree
Sep 8, 2008

BAD FALCON!
LAZY!


Helter Skelter posted:

Or gun nerds getting annoyed at people calling magazines clips. Yes, it's technically wrong, but the vast majority of normal people don't know and aren't going to care no matter what you do.

Itís okay to call them a caisson, right?

CaptainPsyko
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.


Both the ram MHz thing and base 10 vs base 2 storage nonsense have the shared property of being harmless to the lay consumer, for whom it remains clear that bigger number is better and thatís fine and what is important is that the scale mostly remains consistently meaningful and to the properly educated enthusiast who understands what is actually going on. In both cases itís only actually confusing to, essentially those folks who are smart enough to go poking around or installing monitoring software but also too dumb to understand the outputs of said monitoring software or Google when it doesnít seem to make sense.

And, not to put a fine point on it, but I think it is okay and cool and good to aggressively confuse curious teenagers like that.

Charles
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom


Toilet Rascal

The base 10 is confusing to the consumer because when you go to plug in your brand new 10tb drive, it lists as 9.09tb

GruntyThrst
Oct 9, 2007

*clang*


Charles posted:

The base 10 is confusing to the consumer because when you go to plug in your brand new 10tb drive, it lists as 9.09tb

Gubermnt stealing mah hard disk space for the 5G

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014




CaptainPsyko posted:

itís only actually confusing to, essentially those folks who are smart enough to go poking around or installing monitoring software but also too dumb to understand the outputs of said monitoring software or Google when it doesnít seem to make sense.

This is DDR4-3200 why is it only running at 1600MHz did I gently caress up a setting is there something wrong with my new motherboard

-Me, for about 10 minutes before I remembered what DDR actually means

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Just wait when pulse amplitude modulation becomes standard on more interfaces! (pcie gen6 etc)

Everything should just be in transfers/sec the clock speeds only matter at the phy level anyway.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011



FuturePastNow posted:

This is DDR4-3200 why is it only running at 1600MHz did I gently caress up a setting is there something wrong with my new motherboard

-Me, for about 10 minutes before I remembered what DDR actually means

I think this is probably a lot of what Cutress is frustrated by - he's written some articles over the years about how frustratingly opaque XMP is to people building their systems, so you're leaving a bunch of performance on the table unless you know to turn it on, and how the numbers are going to be different from what's on the box of the memory you bought, etc. I believe he's trying to act to get people better informed so they can make better choices and have well-performing PCs, not just to be a pedant.

EVIL Gibson
Mar 23, 2001

Internet of Things is just someone else's computer that people can't help attaching cameras and door locks to!


Switchblade Switcharoo

Arivia posted:

I think this is probably a lot of what Cutress is frustrated by - he's written some articles over the years about how frustratingly opaque XMP is to people building their systems, so you're leaving a bunch of performance on the table unless you know to turn it on, and how the numbers are going to be different from what's on the box of the memory you bought, etc. I believe he's trying to act to get people better informed so they can make better choices and have well-performing PCs, not just to be a pedant.

On the other hand, I am very grateful that there is now no chance at all to burn out the memory when you overclock the CPU unless you go right for the memory.

"Finally think this is what the bus speed should be for this p3 and ... ah that's what it sounds like when all the capacitors explode on each dimm."

well why not
Feb 9, 2009





Friday Afternoon Alex / Linus vibes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6zsHqdNRQ8

Theophany
Jul 22, 2014



Charles posted:

The base 10 is confusing to the consumer because when you go to plug in your brand new 10tb drive, it lists as 9.09tb

I guess maybe, but then your average consumer isn't taking apart their PC and installing new hard drives. Enthusiasts get itchy about this kind of thing but your average consumer works on the rule of thumb that bigger number = better. That does create some confusion in the case of say, cameras, where the yardstick of more megapixels = better doesn't necessarily hold true or TVs where not all 4K panels are created equal, but the people who will actually appreciate/notice the difference are likely already clued up on it anyway.

It's like when people get irrationally angry about my choosing Bose headphones. Ok, so they're not as good as an alternative, but I'm not playing lossless music over bluetooth and I'm partially deaf so it's lost on me.

Fame Douglas
Nov 20, 2013

RELY NOT ON MY HONOR!!! FOR WHEN I OFFER MY WORD OF BOND, I TAKE NOT THAT VOW TO HEART!! CASUALLY, I BRING SHAME TO MY HOUSEHOLD AND RUIN TO THOSE WHO RELY ON MY COMMITMENT, BY SHIRKING MY AVOWED DUTY

Theophany posted:

I guess maybe, but then your average consumer isn't taking apart their PC and installing new hard drives. Enthusiasts get itchy about this kind of thing but your average consumer works on the rule of thumb that bigger number = better. That does create some confusion in the case of say, cameras, where the yardstick of more megapixels = better doesn't necessarily hold true or TVs where not all 4K panels are created equal, but the people who will actually appreciate/notice the difference are likely already clued up on it anyway.

It's like when people get irrationally angry about my choosing Bose headphones. Ok, so they're not as good as an alternative, but I'm not playing lossless music over bluetooth and I'm partially deaf so it's lost on me.

Those aren't comparable at all. People buy computers or external drives and then wonder why Windows doesn't show the "full" capacity that is printed on the box. We even had a goon that got all indignant about it and didn't want to believe in the 1000/1024 bytes mathematical difference a few years back.

Fame Douglas fucked around with this message at 10:14 on May 24, 2021

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJVGghP514E

Part 2 of Hardware Unboxed digging into B560 motherboards, and now they've found a board, the Asrock B560M-HDV, with a VRM that's so underpowered that it seems like it can't go over 100 watts of power delivery, which means that putting a 125w part like an i5-11600K will run out of spec. As in, it won't even hit the base clocks that Intel advertises the part at.

The root cause for this seems to be partly Intel's fault: as HWUB explained in a previous video, Intel's "spec" is a wide range - the base clock is deliberately set to be very low so that the TDP can be advertised as very low, and if you cap the power limit and cap the boost clock and boost time, you can technically claim that you're still within that low TDP, which Intel wants so that they're not scaring off customers with a part that looks like it needs a big-rear end cooler (even if they really do)

On the other hand, the top-end of the range of their spec can go up really high, because the parts need to be able to clock up all the way to 5 GHz or whatever, and then run at that level all day, to remain competitive. Intel's trying to have their cake and eat it too.

The problem, as I see/understand it, is that if the motherboard manufacturer looks at this scenario, and says "okay, I'm only going to give the board a VRM good enough to support 65 watts, because these parts are all technically rated for a 65 watt TDP anyway".

If the VRMs are just good enough to run it at the minimum spec, but cannot handle a "no power limits" set-up, that's too bad, but technically still "within spec", just the lower end of that spec, as it were.

But then, if the VRMs are so weak that they can't even handle 125 watts, but then the CPU support page still lists the 125 watt parts as being supported (just because the thing will technically boot and run in some capacity), then you get this situation - where the board can't even run the CPU at the base clock. Intel bears some responsibility for "stretching" their spec as much as they do, but on the manufacturer's side, if you're going to make a motherboard that cannot run some (high-end) parts even at the lower range of what Intel says they should run at, then the boards shouldn't include them as being officially supported.

gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 12:10 on May 26, 2021

mewse
May 2, 2006




gradenko_2000 posted:

Part 2 of Hardware Unboxed digging into B560 motherboards, and now they've found a board, the Asrock B560M-HDV, with a VRM that's so underpowered that it seems like it can't go over 100 watts of power delivery, which means that putting a 125w part like an i5-11600K will run out of spec. As in, it won't even hit the base clocks that Intel advertises the part at.

Does intel have non-K cpus specced at 125w?

Perplx
Jun 26, 2004


Best viewed on Orgasma Plasma

Lipstick Apathy

Since high end gaming boards effectively overclock and this board underclocks I wonder how big a difference you can get with the same cpu in 2 stock motherboards.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week



Testing a basement-price mobo that doesn't have VRM heatsinks using an AIO cooler is pretty close to intentionally stupid IMO.


But yeah, Intel is now in the position that AMD was in back in January 2017: the combo of high power use and consumer apathy means you get really lovely mobos from the partners. Intel boards aren't selling, so the mobo makers are looking to compete on price and save money on components. Much like how AMD FX got double-hosed by being both a bad chip and getting bad mobos.


IIRC a year or two ago there was a news item that said while Intel had lowered prices for boxed CPUs, they hadn't budged on the chipset chips to mobo makers. This is the knock-on effect from that. An $80 mobo has the cheapest possible VRM and almost no components. Compare to Ryzen's launch when AMD must have been practically giving B350s away.

(The good reason for Intel to keep chipset prices up is that they still sell a ton of 'em to OEMs like Dell and whatnot for corporate machines. They'd have a hard time giving cut-rate Z590s to Asus & Asrock for enthusiast mobos and then turning around and charging more to dell and lenovo. Not an option AMD ever had back then.)

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014




Asrock obviously shouldn't advertise compatibility with CPUs its board can't run at their stock clocks.

But also, gently caress Intel for making CPUs that can't hit their advertised clocks with less than 200W.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

mewse posted:

Does intel have non-K cpus specced at 125w?

nope. all of the non-K parts are rated for 65w, with "T"-model parts rated for 35w (and even lower clocks)

FuturePastNow posted:

Asrock obviously shouldn't advertise compatibility with CPUs its board can't run at their stock clocks.

But also, gently caress Intel for making CPUs that can't hit their advertised clocks with less than 200W.

yeah, it's a problem from both ends - the manufacturer shouldn't list a part as being supported if the VRM is too small to even run at the bare minimum spec, but also Intel's bare minimum spec is really stretching credulity. An 11400F can compete with a 5600X... but only with power consumption that Intel doesn't want to be honest with on the marketing.

Pilfered Pallbearers
Aug 2, 2007




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CayBoXmyf0s#t=780s

"I want the companies to know that we're insane, and we'll spend every dollar to validate their claims."

God I love this channel.

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.

That video is basically Steve drunk with power and it's awesome.

Voxx
Jul 28, 2009

I'll give 'em a hold
and a break to breathe
And if they can't play nice
I won't play with 'em at all


I believe in steve

Romes128
Dec 28, 2008




Fun Shoe

How many fuckin mod mats did they sell.

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.

Romes128 posted:

How many fuckin mod mats did they sell.

According to him, the store entirely funds the company at this point. Pretty much any new product they put out sells through its initial run immediately.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

#essereFerrari


That's awesome

CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT


beyond cultivating an enthusiast fanbase the modmats are well designed products, honestly. exactly tuned to their audience of people who want to start tinkering, probably very inexpensive to produce and yet including content that is unambiguously GN even before the unique branding.

Pilfered Pallbearers
Aug 2, 2007




CoolCab posted:

beyond cultivating an enthusiast fanbase the modmats are well designed products, honestly. exactly tuned to their audience of people who want to start tinkering, probably very inexpensive to produce and yet including content that is unambiguously GN even before the unique branding.

I want one of the large so fuckin bad but shelling out 100 bones is too much right now.

mewse
May 2, 2006




gradenko_2000 posted:

nope. all of the non-K parts are rated for 65w, with "T"-model parts rated for 35w (and even lower clocks)

So.. the B chip mobos were always non overclock, targetted at business use, I don't think it's worthwhile to rage about the VRM can't run flagship enthusiast K series cpus at their fullest. I did get a Z370 mobo from asrock that had a super lovely VRM with no heatsinks, that's more annoying to me than a B series mobo

Endymion FRS MK1
Oct 28, 2011



Romes128 posted:

How many fuckin mod mats did they sell.

I've bought a modmat, a shirt, a toolkit, and a mousemat.

Endymion FRS MK1 fucked around with this message at 18:48 on May 26, 2021

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011



Pilfered Pallbearers posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CayBoXmyf0s#t=780s

"I want the companies to know that we're insane, and we'll spend every dollar to validate their claims."

God I love this channel.

holy poo poo steve you just keep getting better and better

well why not
Feb 9, 2009





Modmats were showing up on other channels for years too. Heís had a lot of free advertising. I can see now why other channels are pushing merch more and more.

Wild EEPROM
Jul 29, 2011


oh, my, god. Becky, look at her bitrate.


Lol the intel thing is just like when they strongarmed microsoft into ďvista capableĒ

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

mewse posted:

So.. the B chip mobos were always non overclock, targetted at business use, I don't think it's worthwhile to rage about the VRM can't run flagship enthusiast K series cpus at their fullest. I did get a Z370 mobo from asrock that had a super lovely VRM with no heatsinks, that's more annoying to me than a B series mobo

It's my understanding that it's the H-series motherboards that are even more barebones-basic for business use.

GruntyThrst
Oct 9, 2007

*clang*


Itís very important that Steve wants to buy a 40,000 dollar fan tester AND does serious reviews of GPUs with pretty anime girls on them.

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MonkeyFit
May 13, 2009


I will give Steve credit for doing a serious review to let those looking at them whether they're pieces of poo poo or not.

But dear god. Perfume? Why?

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