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Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Nah Dell should shoulder some blame there.

(For context this is from the Dell Australia site cause I'm too lazy to change regions)

I just went to the Dell website and the Precision 5820 tower that's just under the $5k mark has the tag line

quote:

For Professional Creators: Includes a stronger processor, more memory, a larger hard drive and a high end graphics card.

With a 1tb 7200RPM spinner.

Just looking again and the most expensive 3650 tower has a 1tb spinner while literally every other lower price point 3650 has an SSD or no hard drive included, and again it's got that same tag line about being for professional creators.

It's well within realms of possibility that someone would go "well the most expensive off the shelf version of these must be the best and it does say it's for content creation" and ends up with a massive bottle neck of a hard drive in it.

If Dell are going to suggest straight up on their site that it's for professional creators, implying someone doing professional levels of video editing, they shouldn't be surprised when someone tries to do professional levels of video editing and complains that it runs like dogshit.

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priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Dell’s website for buying computers is so atrociously bad, I would just deal with a dell rep thru my work and order stuff that way instead! Trying to use the website is insanely confusing even for someone who deals with computers a lot.

Dell ultra sharp monitors are my favs though, and the new work laptop I got is a dell and I quite like it so far.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

Dell put in zero effort towards understanding the guy's needs or letting him make an informed decision, and they actively misled him on multiple occasions, all while heavily overcharging him for poo poo he doesn't need.
Dell's website ain't a car dealership. There are no high-pressure sales. He overcharged himself. Could dell have way more detailed information about each model and its respective capabilities? Yeah, they could. But point to another large OEM that does that. Dell is not uniquely bad in this respect.

quote:

The guy who made the video hosed up, but to act like Dell is a perfect company that literally does nothing wrong is just a baffling take. Like, there's nuance to this story beyond "one side is a massive fuckup and the other side literally did nothing wrong."

Hyperbole much? My post: There was nothing wrong with the hardware Dell sold him -- it wasn't overheating or performing worse than it should have. He just bought the wrong thing. You reading: Dell is absolutely perfect! The only thing I talked about was the hardware.

Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

He obviously made a lot of really dumb decisions as well, but Dell's customer support could've made the problem go away much sooner had they actually been halfway competent. And they could've prevented the problem entirely with a better online shopping experience that actually informs inexperienced purchasers about the nature of their products and what they're meant for.

Dell's customer support is bad. But again, what company can you point to that is leagues better? Do you think there's some legendary PC oem that, when you call with these problems, says "oh dear I'm sorry to hear that, would you prefer a refund or would you like to exchange that PC for one better suited to your needs?" What planet are you from?


Which brings up another point: this guy lives in the UK. He could have just returned it! 30 days to return anything! Instead he hosed around thinking he should fix it himself and going into depressive fugues. But that's the bit that is very relatable about this: it's the story of someone who has developed a massive blind spot to the fundamental nature of their problem, and is doing a whole lot of work to avoid a rethink.

Rudager posted:

I just went to the Dell website and the Precision 5820 tower that's just under the $5k mark has the tag line

With a 1tb 7200RPM spinner.

Just looking again and the most expensive 3650 tower has a 1tb spinner while literally every other lower price point 3650 has an SSD or no hard drive included, and again it's got that same tag line about being for professional creators.

Dell puts "creators" on the ad copy for 2/3rds of the PCs on their site including the non-workstations. As does lenovo, HP, and everyone else. Look, here's a PC that's branded with Creator right in the name. Default storage? A 1TB 7200RPM spinner!

OEM PCs suck pretty universally, that's why we have a 5000 page thread about building your own.

Rudager posted:

If Dell are going to suggest straight up on their site that it's for professional creators, implying someone doing professional levels of video editing, they shouldn't be surprised when someone tries to do professional levels of video editing and complains that it runs like dogshit.

Note there are other types of "creator" besides youtuber / video editor. Someone doing 3d animation work & rendering would be ok with the meh Xeon & workstation Quadro combo -- all the grunt work is on the GPU and 6 channels of ram keep it fed. It's not a lemon strictly because it can't edit video.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


I think people are struggling to forget all they know about PC's and look at this from a purely layman perspective relying on what you can google and learn without expert knowledge and what the sales page on the website says.


Klyith posted:

Dell's website ain't a car dealership. There are no high-pressure sales. He overcharged himself. Could dell have way more detailed information about each model and its respective capabilities? Yeah, they could. But point to another large OEM that does that. Dell is not uniquely bad in this respect.

Dell's customer support is bad. But again, what company can you point to that is leagues better? Do you think there's some legendary PC oem that, when you call with these problems, says "oh dear I'm sorry to hear that, would you prefer a refund or would you like to exchange that PC for one better suited to your needs?" What planet are you from?

Dell puts "creators" on the ad copy for 2/3rds of the PCs on their site including the non-workstations. As does lenovo, HP, and everyone else. Look, here's a PC that's branded with Creator right in the name. Default storage? A 1TB 7200RPM spinner!

OEM PCs suck pretty universally, that's why we have a 5000 page thread about building your own.

"All the other companies they compete with are all equally as bad" is a really, really bad way of justifying things.

Just because that's the de facto industry standard thing, doesn't mean it's correct or the way it should be done.

Dr. Video Games 0031
Jul 16, 2004



If you admit that their customer service and online shopping experience sucks, then maybe that's something they should be criticized for? I refuse to be harsh on the guy because criticizing an individual for making a dumb decision doesn't do anything. Calling out the multi-billion dollar corporation that turned his bad decision into a nightmare at least points the criticism in the more helpful direction.

Like, the other OEMs being just as bad does not exonerate Dell one bit from this. They are all terrible and need to be massively reformed/regulated.

cage-free egghead
Mar 8, 2004


It's not like these companies aren't accidentally making things obtuse or confusing for customers either. They rely on you getting fed up and just dealing with it rather than issuing a refund or repair request. Wait times, off shore call centers and a pile of menus to churn through aren't just cost saving measures.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Rudager posted:

I think people are struggling to forget all they know about PC's and look at this from a purely layman perspective relying on what you can google and learn without expert knowledge and what the sales page on the website says.

Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

I refuse to be harsh on the guy because criticizing an individual for making a dumb decision doesn't do anything.

Look, PCs are a tool like any other. If your livelihood is based around editing videos on a PC to put on youtube, it behooves you to know more than how to press the on switch. Just like you need to learn adobe premiere or whatever your editor of choice is. You don't have to become a PC expert, but you need to be able to answer questions like "why SSD", "what's the difference between these components", and "what hardware does my task lean on the most".


Say I met a carpenter who was ranting about how long it took to cut, file, and sand down the dowel pins in his tenon joints. So I ask "where's your backsaw?" and then he says "what's a backsaw?", well, my reaction is not to be :argh: at the saw companies.

Did you know that in a hardware store all the saws are just hanging there in racks, they don't have manuals, and half of them don't even tell you what they're for? Goddamn saw companies!


(Speaking of which, you know what's on Dell's website besides a terrible shopping system and lots of ad copy? The manuals! You can read about how to install a drive before you ever buy the PC. You don't have to be an expert, you just have to spend an hour or two reading first.)

Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:

Like, the other OEMs being just as bad does not exonerate Dell one bit from this. They are all terrible and need to be massively reformed/regulated.

So I guess the difference here is that I believe in a certain level of caveat emptor. Not the max libertarian "I can sell spoiled meat" version, but this one? Yeah. If you buy the wrong thing and the only level of research you've done is a glance at the ad copy, the fuckup was on you. The company has a responsibility to deliver a functional product that meets a standard, which in this case they did.

Now for the Alienware on the other hand, they're selling a PC thatdoesn't meet the standard set by its spec sheet because it throttles from heat. That fuckup is on Dell.

I also strongly agree with customer protection laws mandating 14 or 30 day no-questions returns to help cover said fuckups and any other case where you aren't satisfied with a thing after getting it in your hands.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Klyith posted:

Say I met a carpenter who was ranting about how long it took to cut, file, and sand down the dowel pins in his tenon joints. So I ask "where's your backsaw?" and then he says "what's a backsaw?", well, my reaction is not to be :argh: at the saw companies.

In that situation you have a trade qualified expert not knowing about tools of his trade, and that should be on him to know that.

Fairly different to a guy with no PC knowledge going to Dell's website to buy a PC expecting the one they label as "Built for content creators" to be suitable to his content creation small business/hobby.

If your an average joe blow going to the hardware store looking for something to secure two pieces of timber together, you're going to buy the pack of screws with the big "Timber Screws" writing on the front because that's exactly what you want to do, if you got home and screwed it all together and it fell apart a day later because they were in fact sheet metal screws no-one would question your rights to go back and demand a refund from the store.

Rudager fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Jul 29, 2021

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle



"I can just go into this hobby/work with no preparation whatsoever and face no consequences" is a pretty wild take.

What happened to doing a bit of research into the things you're attempting to do?

Learned helplessness is something I see people do all the time, just go "oh no, this is something with computers/cars/woodworking, I don't know how to do that, I can't do that" and completely shut down and refuse to even try to learn how it's done. It's especially aggravating when it's part of their drat job.

It seriously feels like some people are afraid of learning new things and skills.

njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.



Buying a computer for work shouldn’t require learning new skills, especially if you’re buying it from one of the biggest computer companies around.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle



Why not, if you want to be sure it's adequate for the work you'll be using it for?

You wouldn't go and buy a hacksaw to cut down a tree, thinking "well, a saw is a saw", right? Even if you buy it from a big company like Fiskars or Sandvik, you should still make sure it fits your needs.

KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Jul 29, 2021

CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT


also lol he is NOT in the UK that was a fairly critical point of the video, he's in the RoI. and because he bought it through a business account (since it is for his profession) the return policy was less than two weeks and, because business and private sales are regulated very differently. perhaps before you critisise it behooves you to actually know what you're talking about? :v:

here's my take about it from elsewhere

CoolCab posted:

i found it particularly interesting because it goes into the psychology of how dell gets away with it. if you don't know anything about the industry, entirely justifiably, we all start ignorant and if you stuck my rear end in the Boat Building Megathread you can bet i'd be calling the stern the starboard or whatever that would send sailors reeling, then "dell" is your term for "computer". people assume, entirely naturally, that price and performance are correlated and that a premium price product will have sensible design choices. the language we use about it is extremely confusing (he fucks up describing "solid state" as a hard drive even in the final video so his comprehension still isn't 100% even though i'm sure it's been explained correctly, poo poo is not intuitive) and made much moreso via deliberate marketing obscurification.

but, more importantly, this is only part 1. they rely on the psychology as he outlines - they're entirely happy saying "oh so sorry sir it looks like you hosed up and bought some magic beans! have a nice day." when they're ultimately at fault, leaving the customer feeling foolish and too ashamed to ask for help. they drag it out as long as is possible to enhance the sensation and demoralize, have operators well trained in playing you and loving you over, kafkaesque technical and warranty support to infuriate and drive you away. someone like you or i see this and correctly go "holy poo poo what a scam" but if you don't know what you're doing, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, their business is more or less the shady used car sales of the industry.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle



CoolCab posted:

he bought it through a business account (since it is for his profession)

"Craftsman, know your tools!" seems appropriate here. At least confer with someone you trust to have the appropriate knowledge and experience, if you are in doubt.

People are way too quick to trust companies and marketing.

KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Jul 29, 2021

CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT


KozmoNaut posted:

"Craftsman, know your tools!" seems appropriate here. At least confer with someone you trust to have the appropriate knowledge and experience, if you are in doubt.

have you ever worked in an IT department? the overwhelming majority of "tools" professionals use are computers in almost every field and i assure you, they do not know them. as someone who used to solve tech problems for doctors, nurses, psychologists, extremely smart people who had been using PCs for 30+ years in some cases or even were younger and had spent their whole lives online, and, for instance, they still try and send their laptop back as defective when they accidentally press "control + alt + <-" and make the display sideways.

i always say, we all start ignorant. you can say "he should have been smarter about it!" but really what you mean is "he should have been less ignorant about technical details" and, again, we all start ignorant. i make the comparison to used car salesman not because they're high pressure but instead because they'll happily sell you a lemon, tell uninformed people "sure it will be great!" and make it impossible to return it.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Rudager posted:

In that situation you have a trade qualified expert not knowing about tools of his trade, and that should be on him to know that.
Why is a PC any different? Are PCs so mystifyingly complicated that only a qualified expert who has served a apprenticeship can know their secrets? They're not. Hand tools also have a lot of variations, and if you use the wrong thing you'll gently caress up your work or your tool. I'm not a carpenter but I do projects. An hour or so of prep and research is normal when I don't know the right way to do a thing. Learning that a backsaw exists and it's the right tool for the job is part of the job.

The place where this analogy falls apart is that learning about hand tools is a lot easier than PCs, because there are regular-rear end books that tell you what you need to know. I don't know what the current state of PC books is but I'd guess dire.

Rudager posted:

Fairly different to a guy with no PC knowledge going to Dell's website to buy a PC expecting the one they label as "Built for content creators" to be suitable to his content creation small business/hobby.
Again, there are many types of content that people create, and that bad PC would actually be suitable for at least one of them. If you assume that means "youtuber" then sure, but that's just another retreat to the position that ignorance is a right.

By contrast, look at puget systems. They sell systems to content creators and professionals and they break things out by what specific type of content you're creating. There are very different specs for different jobs. (They're pretty great, and also like $1k more expensive than a Dell for the same PC.)


CoolCab posted:

also lol he is NOT in the UK that was a fairly critical point of the video, he's in the RoI. and because he bought it through a business account (since it is for his profession) the return policy was less than two weeks and, because business and private sales are regulated very differently.
Aha ok. Point rescinded.

CoolCab posted:

perhaps before you critisise it behooves you to actually know what you're talking about? :v:
It was a 30 minute video of youtuber dramatics, I was pressing the right arrow pretty frequently. If I decide to become a professional youtube critic I'll keep that in mind.

CoolCab posted:

have you ever worked in an IT department?
Yes. And the thing is, those people have an IT department. If you don't have one of those, you have a couple options:
• spend time learning the fundamentals yourself
• spend money paying someone else to do it for you
• spending both after the fact

CoolCab posted:

i always say, we all start ignorant.
Yep. And the most important lesson you can learn is to fix your ignorance before the job rather than after the disaster.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle



CoolCab posted:

have you ever worked in an IT department?

I have worked in IT for nearly 20 years.

Yes, we all start ignorant and have to learn things before we know them. What grinds my gears are the people who actively refuse to learn or have settled on "this is computer stuff, I can't do this" and basically just give up. They have no curiosity, no desire to learn, no drive to become more proficient at the one tool they use for 90% of their work, 8 hours a day.

We all have to start somewhere, and then we learn and become more knowledgeable and smarter. Some people either give up or don't even try at all, and often they go on to blame their tools or their colleagues for their own shortcomings.

Is Dell a scumbag company, the IT equivalent of a used car salesman? Yes! Can you learn to better identify what you actually need, rather than blindly trusting a salesperson? Also yes!

mewse
May 2, 2006



KozmoNaut posted:

Is Dell a scumbag company, the IT equivalent of a used car salesman? Yes! Can you learn to better identify what you actually need, rather than blindly trusting a salesperson? Also yes!

That's essentially what bothered me about the video, they're both lovely. The guy chose the most dramatic option at every turn for the sake of the video then went into high gear histrionics every time he ran into the consequences of his own actions. Then there's a 5 second postscript that he built his own PC which is what he should've done in the first place

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

Ask me about mapping out all the best limousine routes in Moscow for you and the little miss ;)

Lipstick Apathy

CoolCab posted:

have you ever worked in an IT department? the overwhelming majority of "tools" professionals use are computers in almost every field and i assure you, they do not know them. as someone who used to solve tech problems for doctors, nurses, psychologists, extremely smart people who had been using PCs for 30+ years in some cases or even were younger and had spent their whole lives online, and, for instance, they still try and send their laptop back as defective when they accidentally press "control + alt + <-" and make the display sideways.

I do work in IT, and when we had a project where people actually had to do some "content creation" work, we did step in to make sure we were procuring machines for them that had a dedicated GPU (instead of a T-SKU i3's integrated graphics), 16 GB of RAM (instead of 8), and an SSD (actually most office PCs already come with an SSD, either because it's a mini/1L model, or because sticking a 120/240 GB SSD is cheaper than an HDD, though we still have a lot of legacy machines with HDDs)

it was kinda funny cuz we had to fight the demands from both ends: the people on the project were just barely knowledgeable enough about gaming that they wanted us to give them an i9 and a 2080Ti, while management was balking at the cost of having to get a Quadro

(on second thought the tone of this post comes off a little too argumentative. I just wanted to tell a story, really)

Pilfered Pallbearers
Aug 2, 2007




Look, the guy is an idiot, but this is not really his fault.

I hate the fact that society deems it ok for a multi-national, multi-billion $ revenue company to be exceptionally, intentionally lovely to make additional money. Selling that machine with a spinning hard drive for boot is essentially a scam (and if you think otherwise you're loving delusional), and it should not be legal for such a large company to do such lovely things.

To defend Dell in any capacity with "The customer should have been smarter so they didn't get intentionally screwed by this company with billions of dollars". I'm not even talking yet about the fact that Dell intentionally designs their site to make these kinds of mistakes easier.


In my eyes, defending Dell here is equivalent to defending BP for pushing climate change blame onto individual consumers, or saying that if a company sold something they knew was defective, it's the consumers fault for not researching and finding that fault. Pro-corporate, anti-consumer bullshit.

CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT


Klyith posted:

Aha ok. Point rescinded.

It was a 30 minute video of youtuber dramatics, I was pressing the right arrow pretty frequently. If I decide to become a professional youtube critic I'll keep that in mind.

bud i don't mean to be excessively critical but that wasn't something mentioned in passing, that the customer services repeatedly assumed he was in the UK (like you did) and tried to transfer him to a different country cutting him off was quite central to it.

quote:

Yes. And the thing is, those people have an IT department. If you don't have one of those, you have a couple options:
• spend time learning the fundamentals yourself
• spend money paying someone else to do it for you
• spending both after the fact

Yep. And the most important lesson you can learn is to fix your ignorance before the job rather than after the disaster.

it's not a "disaster", that implies it was an accident. dell very deliberately mis-sold the product and the arguments being thrown around here are nonsensical. when people say "content creation" they mean video encoding and maybe podcasts, it's 2021. you might know that and how they also make it as impossible as is practically possible to correct it if you'd finished the video before starting your critique.

Perplx
Jun 26, 2004


Best viewed on Orgasma Plasma

Lipstick Apathy

The guy made many mistakes, but the biggest was buying from the business section from Dell, the only people that buy from the business section are IT departments of businesses and universities, I can't really fault Dell for making their business section unfriendly because they all are.

Kerbtree
Sep 8, 2008

BAD FALCON!
LAZY!


Perplx posted:

The guy made many mistakes, but the biggest was buying from the business section from Dell, the only people that buy from the business section are IT departments of businesses and universities, I can't really fault Dell for making their business section unfriendly because they all are.

The difference being that if you’re that size, Dell is far more friendly. They don’t want to upset the applecart on a big contract.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Klyith posted:

Why is a PC any different? Are PCs so mystifyingly complicated that only a qualified expert who has served a apprenticeship can know their secrets? They're not. Hand tools also have a lot of variations, and if you use the wrong thing you'll gently caress up your work or your tool. I'm not a carpenter but I do projects. An hour or so of prep and research is normal when I don't know the right way to do a thing. Learning that a backsaw exists and it's the right tool for the job is part of the job.

The place where this analogy falls apart is that learning about hand tools is a lot easier than PCs, because there are regular-rear end books that tell you what you need to know. I don't know what the current state of PC books is but I'd guess dire.

If PC's were so easy to use that anyone could completely figure them out with an hour of googling/youtube videos like a hand tool, then most of us on this subforum would be out of a job.

I just can't get behind the idea that the customer is 100% at fault if they take what these companies say in their advertising at face value and don't spend hours learning all about it or pay for expert advice.

The customer shouldn't be expected to have to fight against a corporation spending multi-millions to deliberately walk the line of false advertising without going over it. It's no accident the wording on Dell's website for the use case is broad and vague.

Anyway, agree to disagree at the end of it all I guess.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Rudager posted:

If PC's were so easy to use that anyone could completely figure them out with an hour of googling/youtube videos like a hand tool, then most of us on this subforum would be out of a job.

Yeah, but extend the learning time for 1 hand tool to the entire set of hand & power tools in a decently-equipped workshop of someone who does woodworking as a career or serious hobby.

Tools are a bit easier because you can learn one at a time, and your chisel never stops working because on an obscure conflict with the table saw across the room. But yo, it takes a lot of hours of learning and practice into being any good with them. If you think they're easier than a PC because the dumb jocks did shop class, you're very wrong.

Rudager posted:

I just can't get behind the idea that the customer is 100% at fault if they take what these companies say in their advertising at face value and don't spend hours learning all about it or pay for expert advice.

The customer shouldn't be expected to have to fight against a corporation spending multi-millions to deliberately walk the line of false advertising without going over it. It's no accident the wording on Dell's website for the use case is broad and vague.

Anyway, agree to disagree at the end of it all I guess.

So I've been thinking about it, and I'm thinking this is a situation where some people are assigning "fault" as a practical matter and other people care about moral fault. And if you care about moral fault, then me saying the guy was a dumbass feels like injustice.

In which case I'd say that yes, Dell is the one at moral fault. IMO it isn't a big moral harm -- lol at the guy who compared this to oil companies and climate change. But they absolutely care more about their bottom line that doing what's nice or right.


As a practical matter, I have accepted that corporations aren't nice and that ad copy is exaggerated to within 1% of falsehood. If you walk into a car dealership like a rube, you're going to get taken for a ride like a rube. It's not right, but that's the result and it's been that way since long before capitalism. If you want to sell your lands for a bowl of beans, you'll get plenty of offers.

Rudager
Apr 29, 2008


Klyith posted:

Yeah, but extend the learning time for 1 hand tool to the entire set of hand & power tools in a decently-equipped workshop of someone who does woodworking as a career or serious hobby.

Tools are a bit easier because you can learn one at a time, and your chisel never stops working because on an obscure conflict with the table saw across the room. But yo, it takes a lot of hours of learning and practice into being any good with them. If you think they're easier than a PC because the dumb jocks did shop class, you're very wrong.

I know I said I'd stop, but really, how far down the road do you want to shift those goal posts? You started as comparing a PC to a single hand tool and being able to do some light research to figure it out, now it's turned into being the equivalent of learning about a whole workshop full of tools.

Can you quantify what the appropriate level of knowledge needed to buy a PC in this case?

Klyith posted:

So I've been thinking about it, and I'm thinking this is a situation where some people are assigning "fault" as a practical matter and other people care about moral fault. And if you care about moral fault, then me saying the guy was a dumbass feels like injustice.

Pretty much every consumer protection law in existence is built around ensuring companies deliver a "morally correct" level of service or quality of product because we as a society learned the hard way what happens if you don't enforce some minimum level.

And again it comes back to the point similar to before that just because everyone else in the industry is equally as bad, it doesn't make it an OK thing to put up with. Similarly just because it's technically legal, it can still be something that's not OK to put up with.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

KozmoNaut posted:

What grinds my gears are the people who actively refuse to learn or have settled on "this is computer stuff, I can't do this" and basically just give up. They have no curiosity, no desire to learn, no drive to become more proficient at the one tool they use for 90% of their work, 8 hours a day.
This doesn't just grind my gears, it ate their teeth already. In a professional setting, this is unacceptable. Dear God, the times I get calls about an app of mine throwing "errors", one of the typical procedures would be me asking what the error message is, answered often by an "Uhm I don't know, let me check", then followed by an "Ooooooohh". Ad nauseum. What in the gently caress.

Generic Monk
Oct 31, 2011



Combat Pretzel posted:

This doesn't just grind my gears, it ate their teeth already. In a professional setting, this is unacceptable. Dear God, the times I get calls about an app of mine throwing "errors", one of the typical procedures would be me asking what the error message is, answered often by an "Uhm I don't know, let me check", then followed by an "Ooooooohh". Ad nauseum. What in the gently caress.

to be fair, years of using windows has trained people to automatically assume any error message is indecipherable gibberish that has to be parsed by an anointed one that knows the right incantations. doesn’t make it any less frustrating though

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle



As if people even read error messages. They just slam that OK/Cancel/Global Thermonuclear War button to make the annoying message go away as quickly as possible, who cares what it said?

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Rudager posted:

I know I said I'd stop, but really, how far down the road do you want to shift those goal posts?
My saw analogy got stretched in two different directions.

Rudager posted:

You started as comparing a PC to a single hand tool and being able to do some light research to figure it out,
This is about time investment relative to $$$ & task importance:

I'll do an hour of research before buying something that costs between $20 and $200, which I will use for a few weekends over a couple years, for a hobby. If your entire livelihood depends on a device that costs $2000, you use every day, and is the basis of your professional career? Spend a weekend on it! Read, watch youtubes, ask a knowledgeable friend if available, find someone to talk to on whatever internet communities you have. Do more than walk into Dell's virtual showroom and throw money at the first thing that appears to fit an extremely vague description.

The time it takes to fix a fuckup is longer than the time it would have taken to not make the fuckup in the first place. That's the bare minimum, just be a reasonably intelligent consumer in general. Youtube guy didn't do even that.

Rudager posted:

now it's turned into being the equivalent of learning about a whole workshop full of tools.

Can you quantify what the appropriate level of knowledge needed to buy a PC in this case?

Klyith posted:

you need to be able to answer questions like "why SSD", "what's the difference between these components", and "what hardware does my task lean on the most"

As a self-employed technical professional, you should know enough to buy an appropriate PC and do basic maintenance on it. That means knowing enough about components to read a spec sheet, navigate the options on the average PC OEM website, and independently figure out whether for example a Xeon 3204 is faster or slower than an i7 11700. You should be able to consider basic upgrade possibilities (new HD, GPU, more ram) to get more value from it. You should to know how to read a manual. Both to learn what's up with the PC you're buying, and to see if anything seems weird relative to your general expectations. ("Installing a new drive needs a special caddy, what's up with that?")

That level of competency would need a lot more than 1 weekend of half-assed research. I'm fully aware that most people don't meet that level of competence. It should be an aspirational goal for people who make their living on a PC. It's the finnish drivers license of computer operation.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

Ask me about mapping out all the best limousine routes in Moscow for you and the little miss ;)

Lipstick Apathy

I enjoy watching Hardware Unboxed's monitor reviews even when I don't really understand it, so without going too deep into monitor chat, what is "overdrive" and "overshoot"?

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



14 minutes in and holy poo poo this is the most annoying video I've ever seen.

repiv
Aug 13, 2009



gradenko_2000 posted:

I enjoy watching Hardware Unboxed's monitor reviews even when I don't really understand it, so without going too deep into monitor chat, what is "overdrive" and "overshoot"?

LCD panels take time to transition from one colour to another, but the bigger the transition the less time it takes. Display controllers exploit this by by "overdriving" the pixels, for example if a pixel is changing from 25 brightness to 50 brightness the controller may actually drive the pixel to 60 knowing that it will only actually reach 50 by the time the next frame interval arrives. Overshoot is when overdrive isn't tuned properly, so the overdrive drives the pixel past the value it's supposed to land on which manifests as inverted ghosting trails.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


gradenko_2000 posted:

I enjoy watching Hardware Unboxed's monitor reviews even when I don't really understand it, so without going too deep into monitor chat, what is "overdrive" and "overshoot"?

Ghosting: When a LCD pixel needs to change colors, the slowest response is actually between 2 medium values (rather than all the way from black to white as you might expect). Left alone that leads to ghosting; a moving image on a grey background leaves behind a ghost in the next frame because the liquid crystals need more time to move to the grey value and they're still halfway there.

Overdrive: to fix ghosting, monitors will determine which pixels are going to have slow response a slow response and overdrive them. That just means that instead of setting the pixel to the "proper" color, they aim above or below to force faster movement from the crystals. Instead of changing a pixel from 60 to 150, it'll use 170 for one frame and then 120 after that. Done perfectly, that would mean an instant transition from 60 to 150 in the actual light coming from your screen.

Overshoot: too aggressive overdrive will produce overshoot aka inverse ghosting. Instead of a dark object leaving a dark ghost, it would leave a bright ghost, and vice versa. That's way more distracting than normal ghosting!

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

Ask me about mapping out all the best limousine routes in Moscow for you and the little miss ;)

Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/RealSexyCyborg/...ingawful.com%2F

Is that... a Noctua fan???

Chevy Slyme
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.



Yeah she mentions downthread that it’s optimized for quiet so that people can actually talk while wearing it. Noisy fans are a problem. Competing commercial products for what she’s designing here cost a few grand, so dropping 20 bucks on the right fan for the design in the DIY solution is still being frugal.

Romes128
Dec 28, 2008




Fun Shoe

GN out here risking their lives to test Gigabyte PSU's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aACtT_rzToI

mearn
Aug 2, 2011

Kevin Harvick's #1 Fan!



I have a P750GM in my computer right now, and haven't had any issues since I got it back in November but now I'm paranoid.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Romes128 posted:

GN out here risking their lives to test Gigabyte PSU's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aACtT_rzToI

I'd kinda wondered what was up with the months-long lack of PSU reviews. Steve was like, hey guys we bought a real PSU tester, it cost as much as a cheap car so buy some stuff in the store. Then nothing much. Turn out they were doing more QA on those than Gigabyte did!

This also reminds me about how a few years ago people were :argh: over seasonic PSUs having a kinda trigger-happy OCP/OPP circuits that trip on transient spikes with high-end GPUs. Sucks, but this is a great demonstration of why you'd rather have conservative protections than a "eh whatever, set it at 1200W" attitude.

mearn posted:

I have a P750GM in my computer right now, and haven't had any issues since I got it back in November but now I'm paranoid.

"Haven't had issues" on a thing that fails suddenly and possibly destructively isn't at all reassuring. If I were in your shoes I'd replace it asap, put it on the shelf as an emergency-only backup. Or maybe gigabyte will do a recall / exchange.

mewse
May 2, 2006



Klyith posted:

This also reminds me about how a few years ago people were :argh: over seasonic PSUs having a kinda trigger-happy OCP/OPP circuits that trip on transient spikes with high-end GPUs. Sucks, but this is a great demonstration of why you'd rather have conservative protections than a "eh whatever, set it at 1200W" attitude.

I'm dipping my toes into arcade cabinet repair and I watched a guy on youtube troubleshooting a circuitboard and pointing out a fuse then saying "I've never seen this fuse blow. I've seen basically every component on these boards blow but the fuse"

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CoolCab
Apr 17, 2005

OH WOW! Have I shoehorned my INCREDIBLY BORING story about how I met James Corden at the Greggs at Chievely services on the M4 into this thread yet? Of course I have because that's LITERALLY the most interesting thing about me.

PLEASE TELL ME (and James Corden) TO EAT SHIT


i don't remember when i had this insight, and i like and watch LTT and linus himself, he seems alright. but i can't get out of my mind the realization that he's basically a millenial micheal scott.

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