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STR
May 12, 2006

I thought I was a nice jester


chrisgt posted:

This is actually all completely incorrect for a mercedes, assuming the fan clutch is anything like the one on my 84 300TD and the other mercedes I've worked on.

They do use a bi-metalic strip in the fan clutch. When it heats up, it bends inward and pushes on a pin in the end of the clutch to divert the flow of fluid through the vanes causing it to lock up.

Excellent info, and I'd be very happy to be wrong in this case.

.... maybe. It sounds like the AMG style one the dealer is quoting him is the type you're talking about, and the non-AMG style is probably a viscous type. Just basing that on the prices quoted, anyway. I hope for OP's sake that it's not the bi-metallic style, but it seems like he has a 1 year unicorn.

Any idea if the bolt holes would line up between the two types? It sounds like the cheaper one is a lot easier to find, and would probably would okay so long as he's not going full throttle up mountains. I was going by the loud whirring at all RPMs as my basis for assuming it was a failed viscous clutch (but the symptoms sound like a failed fan clutch no matter what type it has).

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Grakkus
Sep 4, 2011



It looks like your GE has the 117.965 engine? Which is shared with the V8 SECs, R107 SLs and W126 S classes. If so, you won't need an AMG fan clutch.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

All right, so I went out and had a good tug on the fan blades on a cold engine, and I got maybe a couple of inches of rotation. After running it for a few minutes, engine temperature about 50 degrees C, I could get another inch or two using just my fingers, but no more. Plus, just from looking, I could see the fan was spinning a lot faster than the belts running around the water pump/stem/whatever – which I guess are supposed to be running the fan.

If that wasn't enough, giving it just a bit of throttle, I saw the fan accelerate intensely. I could even feel a powerful wind, pushing harder as I pulled on the throttle link – almost pushing my video-taking phone out of my hand. Big fan! So it really seems to keep completely in sync with engine RPM. That's a broken clutch, then?

Grakkus posted:

It looks like your GE has the 117.965 engine? Which is shared with the V8 SECs, R107 SLs and W126 S classes. If so, you won't need an AMG fan clutch.

Unfortunately, seems like I do. Part number A1162000722 is the clutch for most 117.965's, while HWA1172000022 is for the AMG version of the same engine. The former has a 165 mm diameter, while the latter (as far as I can figure out from searching old boards) is about 190 mm across – and my measuring tape tells me that's what my current one is.

To make matters worse, my parts guy can't even find it in Germany (and if Mercedes can, which is not certain, they routinely charge 3x what he does or more). Unfortunate, but I'll figure this out yet. Best case, the bimetal spring thing needs some WD-40 love, and worst case, I guess I'll need to try rebuilding it.

Edit: Well, if it's a bimetal spring at all. I can't wait to get my new parts though; pulling this thing out and actually getting a proper look at it is going to be super fun!

Pursesnatcher fucked around with this message at 14:53 on May 15, 2019

meltie
Nov 9, 2003

Not a sodding fridge.

Pursesnatcher posted:

All right, so I went out and had a good tug on the fan blades on a cold engine, and I got maybe a couple of inches of rotation. After running it for a few minutes, engine temperature about 50 degrees C, I could get another inch or two using just my fingers, but no more. Plus, just from looking, I could see the fan was spinning a lot faster than the belts running around the water pump/stem/whatever – which I guess are supposed to be running the fan.

If that wasn't enough, giving it just a bit of throttle, I saw the fan accelerate intensely. I could even feel a powerful wind, pushing harder as I pulled on the throttle link – almost pushing my video-taking phone out of my hand. Big fan! So it really seems to keep completely in sync with engine RPM. That's a broken clutch, then?


Unfortunately, seems like I do. Part number A1162000722 is the clutch for most 117.965's, while HWA1172000022 is for the AMG version of the same engine. The former has a 165 mm diameter, while the latter (as far as I can figure out from searching old boards) is about 190 mm across – and my measuring tape tells me that's what my current one is.

To make matters worse, my parts guy can't even find it in Germany (and if Mercedes can, which is not certain, they routinely charge 3x what he does or more). Unfortunate, but I'll figure this out yet. Best case, the bimetal spring thing needs some WD-40 love, and worst case, I guess I'll need to try rebuilding it.

Edit: Well, if it's a bimetal spring at all. I can't wait to get my new parts though; pulling this thing out and actually getting a proper look at it is going to be super fun!

Hey, most Mercedes engine parts have the number cast right on to them; once you've got it off you might be able to find the A.......... number and find a replacement with that.

Also, I wonder if this is legit: https://crazyaboutmercedes.com/en/m...m-11796-50.html

e: that manual's part# is S6510191613 if you are interested in finding a copy.

meltie fucked around with this message at 23:04 on May 15, 2019

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

meltie posted:

Hey, most Mercedes engine parts have the number cast right on to them; once you've got it off you might be able to find the A.......... number and find a replacement with that.

Also, I wonder if this is legit: https://crazyaboutmercedes.com/en/m...m-11796-50.html

e: that manual's part# is S6510191613 if you are interested in finding a copy.

Thanks! Yeah, I got that manual – it's got a lot of good info, although it mainly relates to the 961, 963 and 968 subtypes (and of course has nothing about G-wagons in it). But now that you mention it... hell yes it's got diagrams!



It also explains when, how and why it'll engage and disengage. Of course, AMG might have built it completely differently from Mercedes, and they do write that "a defective viscofan clutch cannot be repaired with workshop equipment", but whatever. If Affalterbach just built an upscaled version of what Stuttgart pieced together, I've got a bimetallic strip that's supposed to stick a pin into a spring plate, which in turn is supposed to be pushing against a primary disk. That's supposed to keep a transfer bore covered, interrupting the flow of viscous oil. That's the temperature control part of it, and it's obviously broken, since the fan is always engaged.

There's also a speed control bit, making sure the fan doesn't go flying or w/e, in the form of a closing lever and tension spring. At increasing speeds, that same transfer bore will be covered as the closing lever is pushed across it by centrifugal forces. Once the engine hits 3850 RPM, it's supposed to completely cover the transfer bore so that the fan cuts out and drops to its regular maximum of 600 RPM. Once the engine speed drops to 3400 RPM, it should kick in once more. I'm pretty sure I've at some point dared to push it to 4000 RPM, and not heard any cut-off, so there's something broke there too. Or the whole construction is just stuck on something. That is, if AMG follows MB principles, anyway.

chrisgt
Sep 6, 2011



When it's cold, the fluid in the viscus clutch is VERY viscus and will pretty much lock the fan up. As the viscus fluid warms up the fan will back off and start freewheeling since the engine doesn't need the added cooling yet. Then as the engine comes up to temperature it'll start locking back up again by its normal means of operation.

If the engine isn't overheating and the fan is locking up and cooling it when you're doing low speed high power work (like offroading, or something), I doubt the fan clutch is an issue. If the bearings in it are bad enough to cause noise it'll probably be loose on the shaft, shagging out the seals, and leaking the oil out.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

chrisgt posted:

When it's cold, the fluid in the viscus clutch is VERY viscus and will pretty much lock the fan up. As the viscus fluid warms up the fan will back off and start freewheeling since the engine doesn't need the added cooling yet. Then as the engine comes up to temperature it'll start locking back up again by its normal means of operation.

If the engine isn't overheating and the fan is locking up and cooling it when you're doing low speed high power work (like offroading, or something), I doubt the fan clutch is an issue. If the bearings in it are bad enough to cause noise it'll probably be loose on the shaft, shagging out the seals, and leaking the oil out.

I'm not sure what all of that means, though I have an idea, but I guess I'll just try to show what's going on with a video. Warm-ish means ~50 degrees C, and the high revs are probably like 2-3000 RPM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN_FCFzR8jA

chrisgt
Sep 6, 2011



Pursesnatcher posted:

I'm not sure what all of that means, though I have an idea, but I guess I'll just try to show what's going on with a video. Warm-ish means ~50 degrees C, and the high revs are probably like 2-3000 RPM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN_FCFzR8jA

Can you not turn it more than that when cold? I dunno if that car uses some weirdo viscus fan, but most viscus fans (including on my mercedes) you can turn them when the engine isn't running. They're sticky (that's the point) but they do turn.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

chrisgt posted:

Can you not turn it more than that when cold? I dunno if that car uses some weirdo viscus fan, but most viscus fans (including on my mercedes) you can turn them when the engine isn't running. They're sticky (that's the point) but they do turn.

Nope, it stops cold just there, and only has a little bit more give when warm. I've no idea how the clutch is constructed, but at least it's bolted on to the V-belt pulley in the exact same way the original Mercedes clutch in my M117 manual (by those four little bolts, so the old "clamp down on the clutch nut and turn" won't work here) so I hope that goes for the internals as well. I just don't get why simply a larger diameter clutch would improve cooling.

Grakkus
Sep 4, 2011



If it's larger in relation to the engine pulley then it will spin faster I guess? Or I'm an idiot

chrisgt
Sep 6, 2011



Pursesnatcher posted:

I just don't get why simply a larger diameter clutch would improve cooling.

Is the fan larger than your other car? If the fan is larger or the blades have a bigger pitch, the clutch is probably larger to accommodate the heavier load. Or they used a heavier duty clutch because it's a heavier duty application.

STR
May 12, 2006

I thought I was a nice jester


Thought of this thread when I parked next to this at the grocery store:



Appropriately enough, someone in a tracksuit walked up to it and got in after I got out of my car.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

STR posted:

Thought of this thread when I parked next to this at the grocery store:



Appropriately enough, someone in a tracksuit walked up to it and got in after I got out of my car.

Widened wheel arches, 18 inch rims with just a thin sheet of rubber wrapped around them – and that lovely red magic marker styling on the V8 emblem. The perfect tracksuit-bro automobile. I still love it though. What's up with the indicator light bolted onto the side just below the molding, by the way? Up front there? Some kind of DMV requirement?

Anyway, I got a load of stuff! Brand new big-rear end radiator is secure, and still packed up in its box. Just going to assume it's the right kind for now. Also got a new thermostat with gasket ring, new main radiator hose, a couple of valve cover gaskets, and last but not least, a new lead for that sparky little cylinder 8 plug.



Marked the old one with an X; apart from inside the spark plug end (where it's just tarnished and yellowy) I think it looks pretty okay? I can't for the life of me see how it could eject sparks through the thickest rubber part, but it certainly did, so. Replacing this actually did a whole lot of good for my idling, just like everything else I've done, so I'm starting to wonder how much smoother a V8 can even get. The irregular shudders I've been getting at idle are pretty much gone, which is awesome.



Here's the plug which hasn't been receiving the proper amount of juice. It's between 1-2 thousand miles old at this point, and I guess it looks... okay? I was afraid it might not like having a very variable amount of sparks coming and going, but I guess it worked through it. If maybe a bit bruised.



New main radiator hose – shape looks a bit off, but it's flexible enough. Last time I tried ordering one of these, it turned out to be half the diameter of the old one. Problem was that I'd read a "7" as a "1" in the part number along the side of the old hose, which happens to be a hose at the very opposite end of the system – coming out of the expansion tank. So I guess I'll get to swap that one out too, eventually. One weird thing inside it, though:



Are those metal shavings? They glint in the light all along the inside of the tube, and I'm confused.



Oh yeah and I got a good look down behind where that hose is supposed to go, right next to the servo pump. I guess I'm going to have to find some hefty degreaser.

LloydDobler
Oct 15, 2005

You shared it with a dick.



Those are probably glass fibers, shards of the reinforcing cord you can see in the cut end. Not to worry.

STR
May 12, 2006

I thought I was a nice jester


Pursesnatcher posted:

Widened wheel arches, 18 inch rims with just a thin sheet of rubber wrapped around them – and that lovely red magic marker styling on the V8 emblem. The perfect tracksuit-bro automobile. I still love it though. What's up with the indicator light bolted onto the side just below the molding, by the way? Up front there? Some kind of DMV requirement?

Yeah. Instead of the side marker actually being on the side, it's often on the corner like that for USDM vehicles. Various makes do it differently. Except this one has had the lenses swapped; they're supposed to either be amber, or have amber bulbs.

A good example is my old Integra.... here's the USDM light setup:



Inner lamp is the fog light, middle is headlight (glass), outer is two bulbs (both light up as a parking light, one white, one behind the amber lens). They also had the automatic strangulation devices (loving motorized seat belts ).

The rest of the world got this:



A one piece composite housing (fog, headlamp, corner lamp all in one, and the fog lights up yellow instead of white), with a single bulb for the corner lamp, and a separate side marker on the fender. The bumper light is a little different on that second, but that's because it's a 92-93 vs the 90-91 in the first pic.

I converted mine to the JDM/NZDM composite housing (literal night and day difference in how well they lit up the road, the USDM ones were like having candles in front of the car), stuck an amber bulb in the corner lamp, and never had any hassle aside from finding the unicorn H4H headlamp bulbs (nothing sold in the US ever had them, though you can modify an H4 bulb to fit).

STR fucked around with this message at 05:08 on May 23, 2019

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

LloydDobler posted:

Those are probably glass fibers, shards of the reinforcing cord you can see in the cut end. Not to worry.

I was hoping that was it. Don't want to go clogging up my new stupidly expensive radiator on the first go. Also hope the length isn't going to be an issue.

Oh, and should I be worried about air bubbles? I'm going to end up draining most of the coolant when I start replacing bits, so the whole system's going to be pretty much air only for a while. There's no radiator lid either, only on the expansion tank in the back of the engine bay.

STR posted:

Yeah. Instead of the side marker actually being on the side, it's often on the corner like that for USDM vehicles.

Wow, that kinda sucks. I thought we had the dumbest regulations on all fronts, but I guess not.

I managed to get a few minutes trying to pry loose the fan clutch today, after juicing it up with some secret super-WD40 yesterday. True to form, a couple of those bolts are stuck like you wouldn't believe. I managed to loosen two of them, and got an angry grunt from a third, but trying to get the last one just ended with me turning the water pump pulley half a rotation. Two questions: Is it a problem if I end up squirting quite a lot of WD40-like solutions on the fan belts? And am I messing up the timing or whatever by turning the water pump around like that?

PainterofCrap
Oct 17, 2002

Hey bebe





Pursesnatcher posted:

Two questions: Is it a problem if I end up squirting quite a lot of WD40-like solutions on the fan belts? And am I messing up the timing or whatever by turning the water pump around like that?

No, it has nothing to do with timing...but you will want to maybe rinse off the belts...though WD-40 will probably burn itself off after a couple minutes' running.

Load up the stubborn bolt with 3-in-1 or other penetrating oil & let it sit at least overnight.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

PainterofCrap posted:

No, it has nothing to do with timing...but you will want to maybe rinse off the belts...though WD-40 will probably burn itself off after a couple minutes' running.

Load up the stubborn bolt with 3-in-1 or other penetrating oil & let it sit at least overnight.

Thanks! Yeah, the oil I'm using is some kind of penetrating, lubricating, anti-rust, moisture-killing magic mix. WD-40-like, but I'm told better.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

All right, progress is being made!



After a couple of rounds of futile yanking on these bolts, soaking them in some oily stuff, leaving them overnight and trying again, it was time to get the combination wrench cracking once more. Except today, it worked!



Gave myself a few new bruises, and something squeaked as I pulled the water pump pulley a full couple of rotations, but the last bolt finally gave in. So while I let these four nasties have a good bath in that oil I'm using, I twisted the fan assembly off of the water pump pulley, and dragged it out of the engine bay along with the fan shroud. Hooray!





So that just plain rocks. The fan clutch is a grimy piece of work, though; I'm putting these pics up bigger and clickable, because I'm a little impressed.





The whole thing is just covered in... stuff. Not sure why it says "BEHR" on it if this is something that was cooked up in an Affalterbach parlor, but there you go. Unless I'm measuring the diameter between the wrong places, it's certainly not the 165 millimeters across that the regular version is.



Also this is where it was bolted on. I guess it's too much to hope for that this is copper paste or something equally benign?



But anyway, poo poo yes progress! And I've just got to apologize if I'm being all too exuberant about this, but a couple of months ago I didn't know fan clutches even existed, and when I first started this thread I'd be hard press to point out where you'd find the water pump. Now I've just taken such a clutch out, and I'm just itching to get started on the radiator as well. First though, I need to get this big hunk of metal spinning in a way that doesn't sound like the Luftwaffe is back in town. Wish me luck!

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Pursesnatcher posted:

All right, progress is being made!

But anyway, poo poo yes progress! And I've just got to apologize if I'm being all too exuberant about this,
No need to apologize. Nothing better than enjoying wrenching on your car.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

Thanks; feels even better when I'm starting to get the hang of things!

Anyway, I did some more stuff:



Unbolted the fan clutch from the actual fan, and found the threads for the four bolts to be surprisingly nice and clean. So these all came off like a dream, but on the flip side, I can't seem to separate the two parts. It's almost like the fan is stuck to the clutch by some other means than just those bolts, but I can't for the life of me find out what. Maybe just rust?

Anyway, flipping off the perforated lid atop the bimetal spring reveals...



Crud. Lots and lots of crud. But hey, what's this?





So yeah, that solves the mystery of which part number I'm dealing with. A bunch Q-tips and tissue paper later, I managed to clean the whole thing up fairly well, and I guess the spring at least looks to be in decent-ish shape. Rubbing away some of the black stuff just near the outer edge of the clutch itself was unavoidable, but I'm guessing – or at least hoping – that's some kind of sealant which I can reapply. I'm reeeeeally hoping it's not the remains of the viscous silicone innards that's been leaking out.



Another thing I can't figure out is what this white stuff is. There's a little of it on both ends of the spring, and has a kind of stringy, glue-like consistency.



As for the spring itself, it currently bends ever so slightly outwards:



If I push it with my thumb, I can feel a very slight give, but I'd assume it's supposed to be like this when it's cold? According to the (small normal version's) manual, it's supposed to arch outwards at 221 degrees F, which will release a spring plate on the inside, allowing viscous oil to circulate (and engaging the clutch). Anyway, can't really do much else before I figure out a way to pry the clutch assembly loose from the fan. Hmh.

Ferremit
Sep 14, 2007
if I haven't posted about MY LANDCRUISER yet, check my bullbars for kangaroo prints

Support the fan ring on some blocks of wood so the clutch is hanging in free space and then GENTLY apply a soft faced hammer around the clutch perimeter.

If your bolts looked like that, theres gonna be some corrosion between the steel fan insert and alloy housing of the clutch holding it together.

Make sure you support it as well as you can- 4 spots min, 8 would be better (2x4 on edge is perfect for that) or you could shatter the fan.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

The white stuff is probably glue holding the tag in place. It looks like silicone adhesive.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

sharkytm posted:

The white stuff is probably glue holding the tag in place. It looks like silicone adhesive.

Might be; silicone adhesive sounds about right for what it feels like too.

Ferremit posted:

Support the fan ring on some blocks of wood so the clutch is hanging in free space and then GENTLY apply a soft faced hammer around the clutch perimeter.

If your bolts looked like that, theres gonna be some corrosion between the steel fan insert and alloy housing of the clutch holding it together.

Make sure you support it as well as you can- 4 spots min, 8 would be better (2x4 on edge is perfect for that) or you could shatter the fan.

Great tip, thanks! That worked like a dream!



Thing came off! On the flip side, there weren't any more bolts hidden beneath that flange or whatever it's called. So now I've just got a hermetically sealed fan clutch with no moving parts.



I might have to resort to professionals to get this moving right again.

Ferremit
Sep 14, 2007
if I haven't posted about MY LANDCRUISER yet, check my bullbars for kangaroo prints

That sucks. At least toyota is polite enough to make theirs a bolt together two part thing and they even sell the silicone fluid for the inside of it so you can top them back up again after they stop working properly

meltie
Nov 9, 2003

Not a sodding fridge.

It is apparently possible to refill your own clutch if all the oil has leaked out...

https://www.peachparts.com/shopforu...h-pictures.html

(there's a whole bunch of fan clutch geekdom on that thread)

meltie fucked around with this message at 16:55 on May 26, 2019

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

meltie posted:

It is apparently possible to refill your own clutch if all the oil has leaked out...

https://www.peachparts.com/shopforu...h-pictures.html

(there's a whole bunch of fan clutch geekdom on that thread)

Love it, thank you so much! Reading through that also made me realize that material stress is a thing. There aren't any stress cracks on my fan blades, but I'd hate for it to suddenly disintegrate and start messing up my nice new radiator and stuff.

I guess Operation Unclutch the Clutch here just changed from a nuisance-relieving, "sure would be nice to hear the engine sing properly" sort of thing, into a more critical error I need to handle.

cursedshitbox
May 20, 2012

Your rear-end wont survive my hammering.



Fun Shoe

meltie posted:

It is apparently possible to refill your own clutch if all the oil has leaked out...

https://www.peachparts.com/shopforu...h-pictures.html

(there's a whole bunch of fan clutch geekdom on that thread)

Yup. Refilled the one on my farmtruck 3 years ago, its still working a ok.




E: old composite fans on a healthy clutch will absolutely break apart and ruin your loving day.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

Righty-ho, so I have news and such!

First off, operation fan clutch is most likely on hold for a couple of years. I've been calling and e-mailing around the whole continent like crazy this past week, and my only options are
1: fix the drat thing myself; could be doable if it's only a bearing that's gone bust
2: find one of the 445 other units that were ever made, and hope I can get it without a truck attached
3: pay a best-case guesstimate of about €2500 to have a new one made just for me

That's fine. I think I can do without. I spoke to the most knowledgeable person I've ever met when it comes to Benz things today, and he made me cleverer. My parts shop recently acquired an independent specialist Benz shop, and the guy who started and used to run said specialist shop now works for them. Among the many things I did not know: All these 500 GE's started their lives destined to become regular old boring straight-six 300 GE's. However, when the guys in Graz were done bolting the chassis to the frame, the unfinished cars were shipped off to Affalterbach, where AMG had a bunch of boxes carrying these old M117 engines. Some tuning, tweaking and weird design choices later, 446 examples of the world's most powerful truck of its kind stood ready. Now, I knew the general gist of the origin story of this car, but this explains why it so often pops up as a "300 GE" for no good reason.

Oh yeah and the reason my fan clutch is weird and special is that the M117 was designed to go into the loooong, spacious S-family of Benzes. So you can't just take one, slam it into the engine bay of a G-wagon, and say that's that. If you did, the cooling fan would butt into the radiator. And so AMG designed a larger diameter, but thinner fan clutch which could do the job. Because I guess that's easier than pushing the engine further back, or moving the radiator forward...?

Anyway. I have a new radiator. It is also tremendously huge. In fact, my new best friend was a little surprised I was able to get the engine up to normal operating temperatures at all, what with that whole Stuka Simulator 2019 thing going on up front. His guess is, if I swap the radiator now and reinstall the Messerschmitt propeller, I won't be able to do so. So: He's thinking that at light loads, I won't even need the radiator fan, so long as I keep the car moving. Even if I don't go forward, as soon as the engine reaches 95 degrees centigrade, my AC fans are going to kick in. Those are electric, and should be more than capable of generating enough airflow to keep me from overheating with a clean new radiator.

So the plan now is to remove the old thermostat entirely (thus removing the coolant bypass loop from the equation), add a poo poo-ton of citric acid, flush the entire system, then drain it all out. Refill with a gallon of distilled, purified water, run that up to a good hot temperature, and drain the lot of that as well. Finally, I'll yoink the old radiator out of there, install a new one into the now squeaky-clean coolant system, toss a brand new thermostat into the mix, and add proper coolant. This should give me a very nice and smooth flow of liquids throughout, as well as a good, open airflow. Personally I'd want to clean, flush, and clean again some more, but I was advised against it due to oxygen entering the system is always a bad thing so keep that to a minimum youngster.

Oh yeah and that brings me to today's relevant pictures. So, if I'm going to do all of the above, I'll be depending on my AC fans for emergency cooling in case things begin to heat up. Right. So I decided to pop off the front grill, and actually have a look at those babies.



Look at that! Nice, nice. All right, two new-ish fans? Looking at receipts I see one "heating unit fan" having been changed in 2014, and another in 2010, although I can't tell if those are any of these or if both times was the fan actually blowing air into the cabin. The AC compressor, whatever that is, was changed in 2009. Heck, I now see the thermostat was swapped in 2008 as well. No matter. I have fans! The one on the left side of this picture even spins.



...not sure what that stuff behind it is, mind you, but at least it spins. I'm kinda glad I picked up a bottle of heavy duty degreaser the other day.

What's that? The other fan? Oh, yeah, no. That one doesn't spin.



The fan housing has corroded so badly that there's a severe buildup of something white and nasty on this spot, right here. That's where it sticks. Pushing the fan ring inwards on this picture to see, you can tell where it's simply too tight. I was able to scrape a fair bit of this stuff off, all the way down to bare metal, but it's still a hair too tight. I was able to rotate the fan manually after a good bit of banging and scraping, but I don't think a simple electric motor is going to be up to the task.

All in all, new day equals new challenges.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





If you're going to pull the mechanical fan altogether and try to run on just those (admittedly quite beefy) electric fans, I wouldn't do it without at least wiring up a manual fan switch for testing. If it works, then I'd eventually swap that manual toggle switch out for a thermostatically controlled one.

Also, I have never heard of being concerned about exposing an engine cooling system to oxygen, with the sole possible exception of early Dexcool that would turn to sand.

Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

IOwnCalculus posted:

If you're going to pull the mechanical fan altogether and try to run on just those (admittedly quite beefy) electric fans, I wouldn't do it without at least wiring up a manual fan switch for testing. If it works, then I'd eventually swap that manual toggle switch out for a thermostatically controlled one.

Also, I have never heard of being concerned about exposing an engine cooling system to oxygen, with the sole possible exception of early Dexcool that would turn to sand.

Yeah no the oxygen part was just common sense, really. Oxygen will cause corrosion, and an agitator like citric acid will speed the process. Better to keep it sealed as much as you can. As for electric fans or no; I think I'll try zooming around the immediate neighborhood for a while (if stationary testing looks promising) and see what happens.

Oh yeah and I made a little before- and after-recording of the sound inside the cabin. Holy moly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixA884_6168

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Yeah, the acid can corrode things, but why not just do more cycles with distilled water to ensure you get it all out? It seems like that'd be far better for the cooling system's longevity than just doing one drain/refill after the acid flush.

Granted, I never bother with running the engine without a thermostat in it while doing coolant flushes, but even without worrying about that, it takes a few times to get all of the old poo poo out.

HandlingByJebus
Jun 21, 2009

All of a sudden, I found myself in love with the world, so there was only one thing I could do:
was ding a ding dang, my dang a long racecar.

It's a love affair. Mainly jebus, and my racecar.



Just buy a SPAL electric puller fan with thermo switch kit from Amazon and replace the mechanical fan with it. They’re pretty inexpensive, high quality, and easy to install, then you won’t have anything to worry about.

hitze
Aug 28, 2007
Give me a dollar. No, the twenty. This is gonna blow your mind...



Yeah slap a drat electric fan in there and call it a day

Suburban Dad
Jan 10, 2007



hitze posted:

Yeah slap a drat electric fan in there and call it a day

Was waiting for this suggestion to come up with the cost of these unobtainium units. I'd replace both of them with decent electric ones and make sure there's a halfway decent shroud setup (this makes a big difference, don't ditch the stock one and see if you can find a similar or same size aftermarket fan to fit in there), with thermo control.

Also clean the hell out of that heat exchanger because it doesn't look like it's going to be able to do much otherwise. Might be bearing grease from a dying fan or mud/muck, who knows. A really soft bristle brush might not bend the fins too much, and some tweezers can help bend them back straight after.

Suburban Dad fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jun 4, 2019

chrisgt
Sep 6, 2011



Suburban Dad posted:

Was waiting for this suggestion to come up with the cost of these unobtainium units. I'd replace both of them with decent electric ones and make sure there's a halfway decent shroud setup (this makes a big difference, don't ditch the stock one and see if you can find a similar or same size aftermarket fan to fit in there), with thermo control.

Also clean the hell out of that heat exchanger because it doesn't look like it's going to be able to do much otherwise. Might be bearing grease from a dying fan or mud/muck, who knows. A really soft bristle brush might not bend the fins too much, and some tweezers can help bend them back straight after.

You're going to have a hard time getting an electric fan that matches the flow of the clutch fan, fixing that is probably the best long term solution. You could upgrade the aux electric fan for the AC, though. That would help.

Yes, clean your radiator. I take them out and (carefully) pressure wash them. Then I fill them with CLR (I'm sure you have something like that in Norway), let them sit a while, and flush them out. When I did it to my mercedes it knocked 10C off the running temperature in pretty much all driving conditions.

angryrobots
Mar 31, 2005



HandlingByJebus posted:

Just buy a SPAL electric puller fan with thermo switch kit from Amazon and replace the mechanical fan with it. They’re pretty inexpensive, high quality, and easy to install, then you won’t have anything to worry about.

I like this option best in this application. It leaves the AC fans as a separate and redundant cooling option for this unobtanium motor. They cut on at 95c regardless of AC operation correct?

If it was something common I would think it was unnecessary - here it's good insurance.

Charles
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom


Toilet Rascal

angryrobots posted:

I like this option best in this application. It leaves the AC fans as a separate and redundant cooling option for this unobtanium motor. They cut on at 95c regardless of AC operation correct?

If it was something common I would think it was unnecessary - here it's good insurance.

I was gonna ask what triggers the a/c fan. I've only had ones where it turns on if the compressor is engaged AFAIK. It's possible it might turn on anyway but I guess on a hot day I already have the a/c on. Anyways an electric fan is better than no fan and it's not really that hard to do.

Elmnt80
Dec 30, 2012

I write my poems in the dirt with an oily rag
I have to wear a gas mask just so I don't gag
I got a SOCOM scout and twenty extra mags
And a couple severed heads in my bug-out bag






As an added bonus, an electric fan will reduce the parasitic drag of the fan and clutch! More horsepower!

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Pursesnatcher
Oct 23, 2016



Grimey Drawer

Thanks, everyone! Yeah, I think it's going to be electric as a stopgap measure. Since this car is all kinds of rare, I want to keep it as original as possible, but with "possible" being the key thing right now.

The AC fans trigger at 95 degrees, yup! Those might need a new shroud as well, since the current one is bulging enough that it keeps one fan from spinning. Citric acid is in the mail now, so I hope to be back on the road again come this weekend.

One question though: When trying to pull the thermostat yesterday, I ended up stopping because the tubing appears to be full of coolant still. Is it going to be limited enough amounts up there that I just unplug and let it spill, or do I need to drain the whole system first?

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