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rust is definitely the next language I'll get comfortable with but no one I work with uses it so it's like pre-baked technical debt
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May 26, 2019 22:38
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Doom Mathematic posted:I'm pretty sure a third of those are just Pokémon. But which third? 
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May 26, 2019 23:36
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i haven't used rust yet aside from reading a bunch of the book but one of go's big draws for me is how easy it is to write microservices. the built in http handler and routing functionality scales pretty decently out of the box and stuff like go-kit make it even easier. i'm sure i've asked this but how is rust in this area? is there a similar framework out there like dropwizard or asp.net?
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May 26, 2019 23:50
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Fiedler posted:more like the "people should be discouraged from using c and c++ unless they have absolutely no other choice" camp, from which the lack of investment in tools for c and c++ naturally follows. then after iPhone just completely ate their lunch they panicked and wrote an Objective-C compiler and a clone of the iOS API and tried to get developers to port their new applications to Windows and Windows Phone
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May 26, 2019 23:54
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Blinkz0rz posted:i haven't used rust yet aside from reading a bunch of the book but one of go's big draws for me is how easy it is to write microservices. the built in http handler and routing functionality scales pretty decently out of the box and stuff like go-kit make it even easier. the http lib in std is more minimal than the one in go, but there are lots of small http libs that do what you want. rust is still developing around async but i think it will eventually be good to use for microservices, even ones that aren't particularly performance intensive. however, i really doubt we'll see much adoption of rust frameworks like dropwizard or asp.net. you can make that stuff work and there are quite a few to choose from already but from what i've seen so far the cognitive overhead rust adds to a full featured web framework just isn't worth it. DONT THREAD ON ME fucked around with this message at 00:06 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 26, 2019 23:59
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eschaton posted:then after iPhone just completely ate their lunch they panicked and wrote an Objective-C compiler and a clone of the iOS API and tried to get developers to port their new applications to Windows and Windows Phone no the iphone succeeded despite having bad developer tools. just imagine how much better the iphone could have been with good developer tools.
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May 27, 2019 00:06
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the iPhone developer tools were and are good, hope this helps
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May 27, 2019 00:21
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Sapozhnik posted:It is, however, an act of supreme arrogance to impose that change on those users why don't you go back to complaining about the ending of got help help a change is being imposed on me i no longer get free support and maintenance for my tools and nor does my company by "forced" i mean "no-one else is stepping up to do the work I want and I'm a literal gamer baby"
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May 27, 2019 00:48
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it's fair to say that 2to3 was the real shitshow once `six` came about, people could maintain cross 2/3 codebases then again syntax changes and abi changes in the same major release was never going to go smoothly
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May 27, 2019 01:07
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nah i'll just use a different language that doesn't drop this bullshit on my head like say literally any other language. assuming that other language's own brand of bullshit is something that is on balance worth dealing with
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May 27, 2019 01:08
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eschaton posted:the iPhone developer tools were and are good, hope this helps oh cool. you guys should release the good tools publicly then and stop making everyone else use the bad ones.
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May 27, 2019 01:35
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you sound like one of those people who "just can’t get my head around those square brackets" and so objective-c was the devil's plaything
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May 27, 2019 01:38
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I sort of feel like the python 3 haters tend to be a bit hyperbolic, but I don't think python 3 was worth making breaking changes for at all. Separating bytes/characters is good but surely it could have been in a more incremental way by allowing the same python interpreter to support both the old version and the new version and starting to require code targeting new versions of python to include some sort of language version declaration or something. If they really wanted to make breaking changes surely there were a lot of other things they could have fixed?
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May 27, 2019 01:39
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Sapozhnik posted:A tale of two disruptive changes: I'm a little surprised to see someone complaining about Python 3's distinction of textual strings versus byte strings, since typically people consider that to be a selling point of Python 3. It's always seemed pretty reasonable to me, but maybe I just haven't been bitten by it. What specific issues do you have with Python 3's string types? Or is it that the HTTP library specifically doesn't handle string data well?
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May 27, 2019 01:41
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most of the people mad about python3 strings probably just didnt use python2 for long enough to get hosed by some random implicit string bullshit nightmare
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May 27, 2019 02:41
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Sapozhnik posted:nah i'll just use a different language that doesn't drop this bullshit on my head ruby: everything breaks every two weeks but as a result the ecosystem is a little better. no one actually uses c libraries outside of lxml and lo and behold it is the one that causes the most pain, albeit people think it's the package before, as that gets printed out before the compile starts. anyway. heh. java script: haha gently caress you go: ahaha wait you said you didnt want the core team to drop stuff nm i have bad news about the entire packaging ecosystem. gofix and gofmt are sweet though. rust: well, ok, mozilla is only doing this a little, but they've democratised it, you can encounter folk doing the big rewrite in small pieces every 3-6 months to keep up with the language features everyone's been waiting for the thing is that makes python different is not what they did but how much of it happened at the same time - python 2 users have been spoiled with free and effortless seeming backwards compatibilty - the core team decided to make lots of breaking changes at the same time, to minimize the damage - the damage was in effect maximized as both library and developers faced chicken and egg adoption problems - 2to3 was entirely a mistaken venture - no-one realised how entitled python users were and they had a lot of free time to email about how wrong things went - eventually 3.4 fixed the performance issues, `six` fixed a whole bunch of the migration issues - wheels, pip, a poo poo ton of environmental stuff was fixed in python 3 that folk have been whining about forever - they've even upset the twisted folk because having async in core basically undermines the need for a big third party addon meanwhile? lol here's ruby breaking syntax poo poo in a point release
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May 27, 2019 02:50
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Corla Plankun posted:most of the people mad about python3 strings probably just didnt use python2 for long enough to get hosed by some random implicit string bullshit nightmare also, they hosed it in versions 3.0 to 3.4, edit: 3.5 came out with byte formatting tef fucked around with this message at 02:55 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 02:50
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this was fixed four years ago
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May 27, 2019 02:51
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tef posted:ruby... yes, you're correct. all of these are bad and should be avoided.
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May 27, 2019 02:57
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Fiedler posted:yes, you're correct. all of these are bad and should be avoided. 
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May 27, 2019 03:41
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yeesh
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May 27, 2019 04:22
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eschaton posted:the iPhone developer tools were and are good, hope this helps I'll admit that I don't have a lot of experience with Apple stuff, but I'm pretty confident saying that their developer tools are bad. I worked on a team a couple years ago that released a game for iOS (iPad). My experience during that whole ordeal was that Apple dev tools are like Internet Explorer compared with modern Firefox/Chrome (even Edge). XCode and whatnot had some decent features, which were lacking compared to Visual Studio, but they only worked well if you were only developing using Apple's products (we were making a game in Unreal). It was always a bad day whenever there was an iOS/Mac specific issue and I had to hop over to our one Mac to try to debug it. Also, Apple managed to make a hardware ecosystem that is very, very controlled down to the hardware of their own desires, yet (as far as I know) they don't offer a VM for iOS with XCode, thus requiring you to have a physical device for testing.
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May 27, 2019 05:15
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they've had a ios simulator since like forever. its not a true vm but it runs your code.
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May 27, 2019 05:47
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CRIP EATIN BREAD posted:they've had a ios simulator since like forever. its not a true vm but it runs your code. I'll admit I'm probably The terrible programmer. It's definitely likely it has existed forever but I was too dumb to find it. But, I was accustomed to VS where I could just press F5 and a virtual mobile device would appear.
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May 27, 2019 05:56
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thats literally how it loving works are you stupid as hell or what
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May 27, 2019 06:02
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Hey now, this is the terrible programmer thread. No need to get hostile.
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May 27, 2019 06:15
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lotta spirited posters in this thread right now. everyone, take a deep breath, and remember that we're all terrible programmers together
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May 27, 2019 06:45
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Corla Plankun posted:most of the people mad about python3 strings probably just didnt use python2 for long enough to get hosed by some random implicit string bullshit nightmare I still remember chatting with a former coworker after the old job migrated to Python 3 and finding out that the longstanding obscure encoding fuckup pretty much resolved itself during the port. 
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May 27, 2019 07:25
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Sapozhnik posted:The point I'm trying to make, if it is not abundantly clear, is that if you produce a tool that other people use then it isn't necessarily a bad thing to propose a major incompatible change to that tool. It is, however, an act of supreme arrogance to impose that change on those users, especially if you also impose a transition timeline upon them, ... So I guess it is you, who keeps requesting I backport features from current release to a major branch that was killed off more than a year ago, because you made a bad life decisions and cannot upgrade. Guess what, if your company relies on it, maintain that poo poo yourself.
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May 27, 2019 07:29
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but complaining is so much fun i mean what is programming without complaining about it, really
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May 27, 2019 10:33
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how did computers and the programming of them become so amazingly poo poo anyway i mean, historically what the hell happened, are there just too many layers of obfuscation between 1s & 0s and lovely programmer UIs for hyoomun beans to work with, or what
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May 27, 2019 12:49
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i need a loving 70 Year Lessons Learned up in here
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May 27, 2019 12:49
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Ciaphas posted:how did computers and the programming of them become so amazingly poo poo anyway although i'd hoped we'd use all that increased computing power to do more than create electron-based menu bar apps
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May 27, 2019 13:18
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CRIP EATIN BREAD posted:they've had a ios simulator since like forever. its not a true vm but it runs your code. the ios simulator still doesn't work with metal, so it's basically useless for non-legacy apps
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May 27, 2019 14:24
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Ciaphas posted:how did computers and the programming of them become so amazingly poo poo anyway its actually not that bad
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May 27, 2019 14:37
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Pie Colony posted:its actually not that bad yeah i'm being hyperbolic, but realtalk, it is sometimes interesting to me to think about why software development is so fragile a profession with so many reoccurring problems not that i'm expert enough to have any answers beyond "people (self included) are lazy shites"
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May 27, 2019 14:41
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half-assed attempt at an explanation: fundamentally software is about understanding problems that people need solved and translating them into terms that cursed rocks can execute. a lot of the people who translate for cursed rocks don't like people and especially the people who have problems that need solving; often the feeling is mutual the relationships between people who "solve problems" and people who make the various " translation tools" are even more complicated and fraught
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May 27, 2019 14:47
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also the difference between perfect operations and complete failure is the literal difference between a 1 and a 0 that is easily influenced by any manner of external factors
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May 27, 2019 15:02
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prisoner of waffles posted:half-assed attempt at an explanation: It's basically this. The people who make the tools and the people that use the tools are 2 different groups of people. The tools broadly do what the tool users want and not so badly that you would go out of your way to make your own tools, you have problems to solve instead. It must be somewhere <1% of programmers actually contribute to the tools that everyone uses. It's a fairly small base of people. They couldn't possibly know what people are actually using them for.
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May 27, 2019 15:12
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It's worth pointing out as well that things weren't less poo poo in the past they were just poo poo in different ways. That poo poo gets fixed and new poo poo gets created or old poo poo that was less obvious becomes more apparent because the poo poo that was obscuring it is gone.
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May 27, 2019 15:41
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