awful programming: post .net clarity strikes again

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Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 9, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

jfc I am a moron because I just spent about 4 hours trying to deserialise xml generated from a set of interface implementations to concrete objects because xmlreader is a pile of poo poo and I'm terrible. I literally wasted an hour trying to work out what a cryptic error was that turned out to be "because you read the innerxml to debug, the reader advanced and is now empty but instead of telling you you're reading an empty node it'll just barf some cryptic poo poo about 'element is not an element" "

pretty sure I should have used a different approach (linq to xml maybe) and then cast to a reader later for the nested interface objects but I got hung up on it and ended up just doing trial and error.

Also get hosed whoever thought that it was a good idea to force you to code to explicitly ignore the element closure for <butt/> instead of having endelement just do nothing if it's self closing

# ? Aug 24, 2018 18:08

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# ? Dec 7, 2024 04:58

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

I literally wasted an hour trying to work out what a cryptic error was that turned out to be "because you read the innerxml to debug, the reader advanced and is now empty but instead of telling you you're reading an empty node it'll just barf some cryptic poo poo about 'element is not an element" "

i've done this before too (but with http4s (or play?) entity streams

hey you have a problem so you add a debug statement to log out the stream contents
now you have 2 problems and haven't even noticed

# ? Aug 24, 2018 18:53

Mao Zedong Thot: Oct 16, 2008

Finster Dexter posted:

ctps: golang. jfc I wish this lang had real error handling. I can only handle expected errors and if you have an unexpected error somewhere lmao good luck, and may all your panics not be silently recovered somewhere else.

panics are exceptional, dont use them unless u want to crash

# ? Aug 24, 2018 18:53

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

the entire idiocy of go's error handling is not that you need to check the return values here and there; monad and maybe types have you do that in Haskell or Rust all the time, so do Erlang and Elixir's tuples.

The stupid part of it is that go will not be mad if you don't check them and will happily keep on trucking into undefined program behaviour and do whatever it can without bailing out. Then the goroutine may vanish, but it will do so silently and undetectably for the most part, so you're stuck with a bunch of partly-failed and leaked goroutines with possibly busted memory, but from the outside, the little binary looks like it's doing fantastic

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:02

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

jfc I am a moron because I just spent about 4 hours trying to deserialise xml generated from a set of interface implementations to concrete objects because xmlreader is a pile of poo poo and I'm terrible. I literally wasted an hour trying to work out what a cryptic error was that turned out to be "because you read the innerxml to debug, the reader advanced and is now empty but instead of telling you you're reading an empty node it'll just barf some cryptic poo poo about 'element is not an element" "

pretty sure I should have used a different approach (linq to xml maybe) and then cast to a reader later for the nested interface objects but I got hung up on it and ended up just doing trial and error.

Also get hosed whoever thought that it was a good idea to force you to code to explicitly ignore the element closure for <butt/> instead of having endelement just do nothing if it's self closing

you should be using xmlserializer to serialize and deserialize directly to types. XDocument is better if you actually need direct xml touching

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:05

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

MononcQc posted:

the entire idiocy of go's error handling is not that you need to check the return values here and there; monad and maybe types have you do that in Haskell or Rust all the time, so do Erlang and Elixir's tuples.

The stupid part of it is that go will not be mad if you don't check them and will happily keep on trucking into undefined program behaviour and do whatever it can without bailing out. Then the goroutine may vanish, but it will do so silently and undetectably for the most part, so you're stuck with a bunch of partly-failed and leaked goroutines with possibly busted memory, but from the outside, the little binary looks like it's doing fantastic

I agree, the problem is not with the semantics of go's error handling. returning errors as values is good, in my experience.

go just does nothing to make dealing with errors-as-values nice, so it sucks.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:08

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

I agree, the problem is not with the semantics of go's error handling. returning errors as values is good, in my experience.

go just does nothing to make dealing with errors-as-values nice, so it sucks.

you see when i was a child, i liked errors-as-values...

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:11

prisoner of waffles: May 8, 2007; Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.

MononcQc posted:

the entire idiocy of go's error handling is not that you need to check the return values here and there; monad and maybe types have you do that in Haskell or Rust all the time, so do Erlang and Elixir's tuples.

The stupid part of it is that go will not be mad if you don't check them and will happily keep on trucking into undefined program behaviour and do whatever it can without bailing out. Then the goroutine may vanish, but it will do so silently and undetectably for the most part, so you're stuck with a bunch of partly-failed and leaked goroutines with possibly busted memory, but from the outside, the little binary looks like it's doing fantastic

in theory they wrote the syntax real simple and provided good tools for writing static analysis passes to catch "ignored error returned from function"

now does anyone use those linting static analyses? yes, probably inside goog

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:13

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

I agree, the problem is not with the semantics of go's error handling. returning errors as values is good, in my experience.

go just does nothing to make dealing with errors-as-values nice, so it sucks.

Returning errors as value is good, but you have to have a good uniform way to unambiguously be able to get contextual information from the origin of the error as a more remote observer. A lot of "return errors as values" does a very good job at efficiently isolating and letting you handle a bad condition locally, but do a terrible job at carrying the right context when local action is hard to take.

Imagine a routine handling 15,000 different files and that returns a thing with 'Error(enoent)' or 'Error(eperm)' rather than actual good context. Now you have no great way to gain insights about what went wrong unless you go and reconstruct the context around the failure by hand and investigation. You have to figure out the environment at the time, the possible areas of code that could have carried that information, and so on.

This brings you to the same step as Prolog returning 'false' without having an explanation as to why, something people have hated about Prolog for decades.

Invariably, better error handling has the programmer manually assemble context and carry it around, and either you need to know ahead of time what callers outside of your realm will need in terms of information, or you end up grabbing most of what you can and you end up with manually assembling stacktraces together, and now you're not that much better than if you had checked exceptions but with a more terse construct in most cases, except that you need the entire community to agree on the format that makes sense to track.

Go can't even do the latter because lol generics.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:22

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 9, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

Shaggar posted:

you should be using xmlserializer to serialize and deserialize directly to types. XDocument is better if you actually need direct xml touching

yeah but instead of diving into the poo poo pile of the xml reader I probably could have used the lonq methods to get the wrapper properties then used a reader to bind the interface objects because they're under a specific node. instead I went full dumbass and wrote a pile of lovely hand nested crap using the reader only.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:33

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

smdh

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:34

Finster Dexter: Oct 20, 2014; Beyond is Finster's mad vision of Earth transformed.

comedyblissoption posted:

i hate golang as much as anyone but dont they have some type of panic and recovery mechanism for goroutines?

now, you might have to copy paste a shitload of boilerplate across every single goroutine to actually handle panics within a process, but the capability seems there?

https://golangbot.com/panic-and-recover/

Yeah and I panic and recover all over the place... but panic/recover is only helpful for expected errors, i.e. I call a function and it returns a tuple of the thing I want plus an error. The problem is (like in my case from earlier today) where I have something like "index out of range" where it's an unexpected run-time error.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:35

Finster Dexter: Oct 20, 2014; Beyond is Finster's mad vision of Earth transformed.

MononcQc posted:

Returning errors as value is good, but you have to have a good uniform way to unambiguously be able to get contextual information from the origin of the error as a more remote observer. A lot of "return errors as values" does a very good job at efficiently isolating and letting you handle a bad condition locally, but do a terrible job at carrying the right context when local action is hard to take.

Imagine a routine handling 15,000 different files and that returns a thing with 'Error(enoent)' or 'Error(eperm)' rather than actual good context. Now you have no great way to gain insights about what went wrong unless you go and reconstruct the context around the failure by hand and investigation. You have to figure out the environment at the time, the possible areas of code that could have carried that information, and so on.

This brings you to the same step as Prolog returning 'false' without having an explanation as to why, something people have hated about Prolog for decades.

Invariably, better error handling has the programmer manually assemble context and carry it around, and either you need to know ahead of time what callers outside of your realm will need in terms of information, or you end up grabbing most of what you can and you end up with manually assembling stacktraces together, and now you're not that much better than if you had checked exceptions but with a more terse construct in most cases, except that you need the entire community to agree on the format that makes sense to track.

Go can't even do the latter because lol generics.

Oh geez didn't even know there was a whole page over here... but yeah this is exactly the problem. I wouldn't mind Go so much if it weren't for the lovely error handling.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:38

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

MononcQc posted:

Returning errors as value is good, but you have to have a good uniform way to unambiguously be able to get contextual information from the origin of the error as a more remote observer. A lot of "return errors as values" does a very good job at efficiently isolating and letting you handle a bad condition locally, but do a terrible job at carrying the right context when local action is hard to take.

Imagine a routine handling 15,000 different files and that returns a thing with 'Error(enoent)' or 'Error(eperm)' rather than actual good context. Now you have no great way to gain insights about what went wrong unless you go and reconstruct the context around the failure by hand and investigation. You have to figure out the environment at the time, the possible areas of code that could have carried that information, and so on.

This brings you to the same step as Prolog returning 'false' without having an explanation as to why, something people have hated about Prolog for decades.

Invariably, better error handling has the programmer manually assemble context and carry it around, and either you need to know ahead of time what callers outside of your realm will need in terms of information, or you end up grabbing most of what you can and you end up with manually assembling stacktraces together, and now you're not that much better than if you had checked exceptions but with a more terse construct in most cases, except that you need the entire community to agree on the format that makes sense to track.

Go can't even do the latter because lol generics.

yeah this is really on point, you're a great writer.

the current vogue in rust error handling lets you add context to an error before sending it up the chain, it's really nice. i'm using it in my emulator.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:39

Finster Dexter: Oct 20, 2014; Beyond is Finster's mad vision of Earth transformed.

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

yeah this is really on point, you're a great writer.

the current vogue in rust error handling lets you add context to an error before sending it up the chain, it's really nice. i'm using it in my emulator.

Yeah I was looking at the error handling in rust and I'm practically salivating. Makes me wish I could convince the CTO to switch to rust, but he's really into Go.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:41

DONT THREAD ON ME: Oct 1, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo; Floss Finder

yeah it's my favorite part of the language. i think it's very awkward for newcomers, but once you're used to it it's wonderful.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:47

prisoner of waffles: May 8, 2007; Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.

MononcQc posted:

Returning errors as value is good, but you have to have a good uniform way to unambiguously be able to get contextual information from the origin of the error as a more remote observer. A lot of "return errors as values" does a very good job at efficiently isolating and letting you handle a bad condition locally, but do a terrible job at carrying the right context when local action is hard to take.

Imagine a routine handling 15,000 different files and that returns a thing with 'Error(enoent)' or 'Error(eperm)' rather than actual good context. Now you have no great way to gain insights about what went wrong unless you go and reconstruct the context around the failure by hand and investigation. You have to figure out the environment at the time, the possible areas of code that could have carried that information, and so on.

This brings you to the same step as Prolog returning 'false' without having an explanation as to why, something people have hated about Prolog for decades.

Invariably, better error handling has the programmer manually assemble context and carry it around, and either you need to know ahead of time what callers outside of your realm will need in terms of information, or you end up grabbing most of what you can and you end up with manually assembling stacktraces together, and now you're not that much better than if you had checked exceptions but with a more terse construct in most cases, except that you need the entire community to agree on the format that makes sense to track.

Go can't even do the latter because lol generics.

uh where would https://dave.cheney.net/2016/06/12/stack-traces-and-the-errors-package fit (or not fit) into your picture of the stacktraceless error value?

like, in one's own code you can auto-capture stack traces, but other people's libraries might not have stack traces or might be recording them in an incompatible format?

code:

interface HasStackTrace { ... }

tbqh it sounds like rust error handling is Strictly Better

# ? Aug 24, 2018 19:55

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

prisoner of waffles posted:

uh where would https://dave.cheney.net/2016/06/12/stack-traces-and-the-errors-package fit (or not fit) into your picture of the stacktraceless error value?

like, in one's own code you can auto-capture stack traces, but other people's libraries might not have stack traces or might be recording them in an incompatible format?
code:
interface HasStackTrace { ... }

The problems there are social:

the error package is optional
the error package is not guaranteed to be unique
the error package must be used by everyone ubiquitously
the error package may not be called and there are no warnings or no constructs about it
it ends up relying on "jam everything you can into a string" because even what you wrap cannot unambiguously be typed in a portable manner

Rust for example solves a bunch of these by having idiomatic, language-provided mechanisms for error type composition, macros around them to make them less cumbersome (try!) and so on.

I think it's still a bit painful when it comes to annotating the exceptions (I haven't used Rust enough) since there seems to be an ongoing discussion about this and all kinds of crates that promise to make it easier. Whereas a language where you have exceptions just handles it all for you. The try! macro is the closest thing I can think of to abstracting away the "bail out until you are in a context that knows what to do with exceptional conditions" without explicitly doing it, but requires you to annotate everything that requires it for the compiler not to yell.

I don't have enough experience with it, but it really feels like a kind of way to deal with what would otherwise be checked exceptions. Like "I know this may fail, this is not the level of abstraction at which I care."

prisoner of waffles posted:

tbqh it sounds like rust error handling is Strictly Better

Go has, unambiguously, the worst error handling in a programming language since C I could think of (I don't know mumps well enough).

# ? Aug 24, 2018 20:28

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 9, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

Shaggar posted:

smdh

if nothing else this has confirmed I'm in the right thread

# ? Aug 24, 2018 20:31

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

MononcQc posted:

The problems there are social:

the error package is optional

the error package is not guaranteed to be unique

the error package must be used by everyone ubiquitously

the error package may not be called and there are no warnings or no constructs about it

it ends up relying on "jam everything you can into a string" because even what you wrap cannot unambiguously be typed in a portable manner

Rust for example solves a bunch of these by having idiomatic, language-provided mechanisms for error type composition, macros around them to make them less cumbersome (try!) and so on.

I think it's still a bit painful when it comes to annotating the exceptions (I haven't used Rust enough) since there seems to be an ongoing discussion about this and all kinds of crates that promise to make it easier. Whereas a language where you have exceptions just handles it all for you. The try! macro is the closest thing I can think of to abstracting away the "bail out until you are in a context that knows what to do with exceptional conditions" without explicitly doing it, but requires you to annotate everything that requires it for the compiler not to yell.

I don't have enough experience with it, but it really feels like a kind of way to deal with what would otherwise be checked exceptions. Like "I know this may fail, this is not the level of abstraction at which I care."

Go has, unambiguously, the worst error handling in a programming language since C I could think of (I don't know mumps well enough).

rust's error context is an opt-in package though. plain Results suffer from that same return false problem you mentioned before (and I have been bitter by it myself until i started using the 'failure' crate and calling map_err(|e| e.add_context("line 20")) to everything. imo the context/stack trace part still has a ways to go

e: poo poo i just read the second half and we agree on this. reading is hard.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 20:38

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

poo poo i've just had a great idea. make my own version of try! that automatically annotates the error with standard stack-tracey stuff. failure has a bunch of macros but i didn't see one that did this. too bad that the ? syntax is special and you can't override it with a trait or whatever like you can with + etc

# ? Aug 24, 2018 20:46

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

just use exceptions.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 22:35

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

Shaggar posted:

just use exceptions.

what's a heap?

# ? Aug 24, 2018 22:47

CPColin: Sep 9, 2003; Big ol' smile.

nothin' what's a heapin' with you?

# ? Aug 24, 2018 22:50

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

Shaggar posted:

you should be using xmlserializer to serialize and deserialize directly to types. XDocument is better if you actually need direct xml touching

counterpoint: datacontractserializer and xmldocument

# ? Aug 24, 2018 23:50

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

i always find .net's xml (de)serialization to be incredibly loving irritating. it normally works, kinda. until you hit one of its billion edge cases and have to randomly try stuff until you find that one combination of attributes and xml that gives you what you want. searching stack overflow is helpful less than half the time. and god help you if you want to serialize Dictionary<>s

# ? Aug 24, 2018 23:55

VikingofRock: Aug 24, 2008

For what it's worth this RFC just got accepted so rust's Error trait should improve soon�.

# ? Aug 24, 2018 23:58

brap: Aug 23, 2004; Grimey Drawer

does go give a compile error if you don�t bind the error return value to something? (i.e. _)

re: xml, yeah um basically you better have an accurate xsd for whatever you�re working with and generate the classes, otherwise you�re gonna just eat poo poo

# ? Aug 24, 2018 23:59

Ellie Crabcakes: Jan 31, 2008; Stop emailing my boyfriend Gay Crungus

redleader posted:

counterpoint: datacontractserializer and xmldocument

counter-counterpoint: JSON

# ? Aug 25, 2018 00:00

Blinkz0rz: May 27, 2001; MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

brap posted:

does go give a compile error if you don�t bind the error return value to something? (i.e. _)

yes, a returned error is an explicit part of the function's signature and if a return value isn't handled the complier will yell at you

# ? Aug 25, 2018 00:02

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 9, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

redleader posted:

counterpoint: datacontractserializer and xmldocument

i think you have to drag in wcf for this don't you? I think I've done this before actually and you have to stick lots of [knowntype ] decoration everywhere which works but adds one more thing to do if you add a new IButt. as it stands there's one enum and a factory that you have to add to add any new implementation of the interface which is nice

redleader posted:

i always find .net's xml (de)serialization to be incredibly loving irritating. it normally works, kinda. until you hit one of its billion edge cases and have to randomly try stuff until you find that one combination of attributes and xml that gives you what you want. searching stack overflow is helpful less than half the time. and god help you if you want to serialize Dictionary<>s

accurately describes my afternoon tbh

# ? Aug 25, 2018 00:05

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

redleader posted:

counterpoint: datacontractserializer and xmldocument

if you're stuck in .net 2.0 sure.

# ? Aug 25, 2018 00:09

brap: Aug 23, 2004; Grimey Drawer

I'm amazed anyone inside goog actually writes go and that it's not just a hilarious prank on the morons that make up most of this industry

edit: why not both, I guess

# ? Aug 25, 2018 00:14

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

Peeny Cheez posted:

counter-counterpoint: JSON

xml good

although json.net is pretty boss actually. it usually works a lot better than the stdlib xml serialization

# ? Aug 25, 2018 00:29

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

I haven't had problems with xml serialization in .net w/ the standard lib. XmlSerializer works really well in my experience and linq xml is good for stuff without schema.

# ? Aug 25, 2018 00:39

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

VikingofRock posted:

For what it's worth this RFC just got accepted so rust's Error trait should improve soon�.

this looks sweet thanks

# ? Aug 25, 2018 00:54

comedyblissoption: Mar 15, 2006; A guhh? A bwuhh? A lubba wubba WHAAAA???

Ask me about TND

MononcQc posted:

the entire idiocy of go's error handling is not that you need to check the return values here and there; monad and maybe types have you do that in Haskell or Rust all the time, so do Erlang and Elixir's tuples.

The stupid part of it is that go will not be mad if you don't check them and will happily keep on trucking into undefined program behaviour and do whatever it can without bailing out. Then the goroutine may vanish, but it will do so silently and undetectably for the most part, so you're stuck with a bunch of partly-failed and leaked goroutines with possibly busted memory, but from the outside, the little binary looks like it's doing fantastic

rob pike's literal unironic solution to this problem is to not do that

# ? Aug 25, 2018 00:57