awful programming: Somebody set up us the BOM

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware / Software Crap > YOSPOS > awful programming: Somebody set up us the BOM

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Osmosisch: Sep 9, 2007; I shall make everyone look like me! Then when they trick each other, they will say "oh that Coyote, he is the smartest one, he can even trick the great Coyote."; Grimey Drawer

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

babby two hander coming on the scene.

Congratulations! I hope they either learn to make equally entertaining posts, or a better job selection strategy :toot:

(Seriously thanks for your stories, they've brought me and the off-site friends I send them to a lot of joy)

# ? Oct 16, 2021 07:05

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# ? Dec 6, 2025 00:56

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; altid pamo når du går
veje du burd' kende
overleved' barneår
lig' til livets ende

DrPossum posted:

just go read the code

pls dont advocate self harm

# ? Oct 16, 2021 07:36

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 9, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

Osmosisch posted:

Congratulations! I hope they either learn to make equally entertaining posts, or a better job selection strategy

(Seriously thanks for your stories, they've brought me and the off-site friends I send them to a lot of joy)

oh no I didn't realise people were actually reading my posts, how embarrassing

there's poop everywhere, nothing approaching coherent language and the screaming doesn't stop so basically parenting is just like using javascript

# ? Oct 16, 2021 07:39

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; altid pamo når du går
veje du burd' kende
overleved' barneår
lig' til livets ende

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

oh no I didn't realise people were actually reading my posts, how embarrassing

there's poop everywhere, nothing approaching coherent language and the screaming doesn't stop so basically parenting is just like using javascript

# ? Oct 16, 2021 07:57

Sagacity: May 2, 2003; Hopefully my epitaph will be funnier than my custom title.

DrPossum posted:

also spring is loving garbage

this statement is factually incorrect

spring is certainly bloated and fairly complex, but so is any other framework once you start adding features you actually need

regarding java though, i really hope they get project loom out the door sooner rather than later because the true garbage is reactive programming. async/await in general is loving garbage but on the JVM Rx is garbage. Webflux is garbage. Kotlin coroutines are garbage.

# ? Oct 16, 2021 08:09

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

Plorkyeran posted:

i graduated over a decade ago and almost all of my classes which involved writing code for homework required using svn. whatever was committed to your repo at the homework deadline was the thing that got graded. one class did literally have "did you run the auto-formatter?" as part of the homework grade. there were a few which automatically ran the test suite which you had to pass each time you committed something to svn.

This but git & gitlab when I was teaching.

# ? Oct 16, 2021 08:25

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 9, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

Carthag Tuek posted:

+

I'm kidding of course, children grow up and mature, js does not.

this library (setCola) is actually really neat though, it applies ontop of the equally cool cola js plugin for d3 and lets you express constraints on a graph without having to hand janitor positions which is essential if you're generating a directed graph dynamically and don't know the size or layout in advance (and can't easily compute it because the graph build zig zags up and down the tree)

this is actually really just a stubborn side project to generate visual models of our reference data which is way harder than it seems because of the graph size being so variable (e.g. for two entities you might get 100 nodes within 3 hops or 500), also nodes can have multiple incoming/outgoing links to each other so a top down tree just doesn't cut it.

# ? Oct 16, 2021 08:28

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 9, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

speaking of jobs, lmao

# ? Oct 16, 2021 09:24

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; altid pamo når du går
veje du burd' kende
overleved' barneår
lig' til livets ende

code:

TJisMassegggge is W403 Forbidden

i need to be more careful with my units

# ? Oct 16, 2021 10:31

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

speaking of jobs, lmao

does it just return status 451

# ? Oct 16, 2021 13:48

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

async/await should only be used in user interfaces, or perhaps in the implementation of an http or websocket deframer.

If you are going to turn a call stack into a heap allocated call tree then maybe think carefully about whether or not this is a good idea.

# ? Oct 16, 2021 17:06

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 9, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

hobbesmaster posted:

does it just return status 451

idk about you but it's giving me a 413 :smuggo:

e: or maybe actually :reject:

# ? Oct 16, 2021 20:44

Sagacity: May 2, 2003; Hopefully my epitaph will be funnier than my custom title.

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

idk about you but it's giving me a ~~413~~425

# ? Oct 16, 2021 20:59

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

quote:

idk about you but it's giving me a 411

# ? Oct 16, 2021 22:18

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

PokeJoe posted:

Java...is good

It's pretty okay OP. I like being paid money for coding in it.

# ? Oct 17, 2021 17:10

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

DrPossum posted:

also spring is loving garbage

it's better, and better documented, than what a random company is likely to build on its own, which is the point

spring services were a beacon of sanity in Amazon Fulfillment, which was otherwise built on a morass of C++97 whims

# ? Oct 17, 2021 18:29

Gazpacho: Jun 18, 2004; by Fluffdaddy; Slippery Tilde

and they weren't even using the REST parts of spring, just the dependency injection and hibernate

# ? Oct 17, 2021 18:36

darkforce898: Sep 11, 2007

Sapozhnik posted:

async/await should only be used in user interfaces, or perhaps in the implementation of an http or websocket deframer.

If you are going to turn a call stack into a heap allocated call tree then maybe think carefully about whether or not this is a good idea.

Async and await are the worst. I don't understand what's so hard about either making two functions, one that blocks and then one with a callback. You could even just make it a single function that takes a nullable function as the callback.

I end up just writing

await x =
await y =
await blahgarbage

I fail to see how this is better. But I fail to see a lot so it may just be me.

# ? Oct 17, 2021 23:13

mystes: May 31, 2006

darkforce898 posted:

Async and await are the worst. I don't understand what's so hard about either making two functions, one that blocks and then one with a callback. You could even just make it a single function that takes a nullable function as the callback.

I end up just writing

await x =
await y =
await blahgarbage

I fail to see how this is better. But I fail to see a lot so it may just be me.

I think in most languages with async stuff you are free to use explicit callbacks rather than await if you prefer that (and await is usually effectively like syntactic sugar for callbacks), so if there's a blocking version and an async version you already have "two functions, one that blocks and then one with a callback."

# ? Oct 17, 2021 23:19

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

Because then you end up with an incomprehensible mess of endlessly nested callbacks, async/await was a direct response to what you are proposing.

Instead of writing

code:

function foo(param, callback) {
  step1(param, result1 => {
    step2(result1, result2 => {
      step3(result2, result3 => {
        callback(result3);
      });
    });
  });
}

you write

code:

async function foo(param) {
  const result1 = await step1(param);
  const result2 = await step2(result1);
  const result3 = await step3(result2);

  return result3;
}

...and the first example doesn't even handle errors, whereas the second one does.

The problem is that a bunch of languages have an "async/await" syntax, and the syntax is usually more or less the same but the actual underlying concurrency model in each language is completely different. JavaScript uses promises, Python I think uses generators, Rust uhh... I think uses promises but different in that they don't actually start executing until you tug on the result of the outermost asynchronous function.

Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Oct 17, 2021

# ? Oct 17, 2021 23:31

pokeyman: Nov 26, 2006; That elephant ate my entire platoon.

swift is adding async/await and I don't really care syntactically, but the task stuff that came with it looks a+

also clang can now warn when your objc method doesn't call a completion block on all code paths and that is an excellent feature

# ? Oct 18, 2021 02:05

Plorkyeran: Mar 21, 2007; To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed

swift async/await is great for ui/mainactor stuff but every example of using it that i've seen which doesn't involve that has just made me go "that could have just been a normal synchronous function call"

# ? Oct 18, 2021 02:16

darkforce898: Sep 11, 2007

Why do I have to explicitly mark it synchronous. All of programming ever has been synchronous. If you have a bunch of lines in a row that are synchronous then why not reverse it.

I would much rather explicitly mark my ui stuff as non blocking instead of having to make every single backend call blocking

# ? Oct 18, 2021 03:07

Jabor: Jul 16, 2010; #1 Loser at SpaceChem

what do you mean by "explicitly mark it synchronous"? that's not at all what await does, and i'm not sure what else you could be referring to

# ? Oct 18, 2021 03:22

mystes: May 31, 2006

darkforce898 posted:

Why do I have to explicitly mark it synchronous. All of programming ever has been synchronous. If you have a bunch of lines in a row that are synchronous then why not reverse it.

I would much rather explicitly mark my ui stuff as non blocking instead of having to make every single backend call blocking

It sounds like you might be confused. However, it's true that async stuff can add additional complexity when you don't actually need to do things asynchronously.

# ? Oct 18, 2021 03:30

FlapYoJacks: Feb 12, 2009; DOES NOT OWN EXOTIC FISH

Django > Spring. If you aren�t inheriting a Spring project there is no reason to choose it over Django unless you like pain.

# ? Oct 18, 2021 04:41

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

sure, i'm just gonna choose to use python when not absolutely required

# ? Oct 18, 2021 05:13

FlapYoJacks: Feb 12, 2009; DOES NOT OWN EXOTIC FISH

redleader posted:

sure, i'm just gonna choose to use python when not absolutely required

As you should. It�s far better than Java.

# ? Oct 18, 2021 05:14

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

no its not. its also a pointless comparison cause c# and asp.net are better than both by miles

# ? Oct 18, 2021 05:22

cowboy beepboop: Feb 24, 2001

DoomTrainPhD posted:

Django > Spring. If you aren�t inheriting a Spring project there is no reason to choose it over Django unless you like pain.

django is a nice project but still suffers from way too many runtime errors like all python programs

# ? Oct 18, 2021 05:24

Sagacity: May 2, 2003; Hopefully my epitaph will be funnier than my custom title.

Shaggar posted:

no its not. its also a pointless comparison cause c# and asp.net are better than both by miles

I wouldn't go that far, but it's definitely miles better than python and django. C# and asp.net have been doing a few too many reboots of their stack over the years though, perhaps i will revisit once things settle down a bit. the strong backwards compatibility is something I enjoy in java.

but sure if at some point my application is running the risk of becoming too performant or too multi-core saturating I'll try python then

Sagacity fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Oct 18, 2021

# ? Oct 18, 2021 07:15

DrPossum: May 15, 2004; i am not a surgeon

Sagacity posted:

I wouldn't go that far, but it's definitely miles better than python and django. C# and asp.net have been doing a few too many reboots of their stack over the years though, perhaps i will revisit once things settle down a bit. the strong backwards compatibility is something I enjoy in java.

but sure if at some point my application is running the risk of becoming too performant or too multi-core saturating I'll try python then

lol Microsoft is just loving reboots all the way down forever

# ? Oct 18, 2021 11:29

toiletbrush: May 17, 2010

Sapozhnik posted:

Because then you end up with an incomprehensible mess of endlessly nested callbacks, async/await was a direct response to what you are proposing.

...and the first example doesn't even handle errors, whereas the second one does.

This, and also the fact that writing code that uses a callback/completion handler 'infects' the call stack in exactly the same way as making a method async, the difference is async/await gives you a nice escape hatch:

code:

public string SyncMethod() 
{
    return poop.fartAsync().Result
}

The main bad thing about async/await in C# is that wrapping the result in Task<TResult> makes method signatures a little funky, but that's an implementation detail

# ? Oct 18, 2021 12:06

floatman: Mar 17, 2009

Async await is

code:


await Task.WhenAll(allUrShit);

Wow many processes fast code best devs

# ? Oct 18, 2021 12:20

cool av: Mar 2, 2013

i never dug into exactly why, but among all the other crap asp.net core �borrowed� from node/express is the inability to just write synchronous request handlers. direct translation from asp.net into netcore runs like poo poo under load unless you also change all your db calls from xyz() to await xyzAsync()

# ? Oct 18, 2021 12:58

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

yeah backend async/await is bad in most situations, don't use it

in user interfaces it's nice tho

# ? Oct 18, 2021 13:25

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

Plorkyeran posted:

swift async/await is great for ui/mainactor stuff but every example of using it that i've seen which doesn't involve that has just made me go "that could have just been a normal synchronous function call"

Sapozhnik posted:

yeah backend async/await is bad in most situations, don't use it

in user interfaces it's nice tho

you're the second guy that says that async should stay in ui land and backend code should be synchronous and it baffles me

like, don't you ever send emails from your backend (with or without an email service)? you don't upload files? you don't run complex queries that take a second or more from your dedicated database server? do you just buy the biggest 512-core server your employer's money can buy and let half of those threads spin while waiting for the external service to complete the request?

# ? Oct 18, 2021 13:39

Sagacity: May 2, 2003; Hopefully my epitaph will be funnier than my custom title.

NihilCredo posted:

do you just buy the biggest 512-core server your employer's money can buy and let half of those threads spin while waiting for the external service to complete the request?

don't tell anyone, but you can actually have more than one thread per core

so just have a big thread pool per core, no muss no fuss

it may not be 100% optimal but I would argue that most async (async/await or, worse, "reactive") code that is currently being deployed is broken in edge cases and generally non-trivial to develop and debug

and whenever loom is available for the JVM your normal threaded code suddenly will run just like when it was async/await code, with none of the terrible developer experience

Sagacity fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Oct 18, 2021

# ? Oct 18, 2021 13:47

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 9, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

if your front end action should block then it should be async on the front end to wait for the appropriate event and your backend doesn't need to be async because the front end has to wait anyway, if your frontend action doesn't block then applying async on the backend doesn't achieve anything anyway because you don't care when the task returns

if you've then somehow run out of cores/threads then you probably need a task queuing system instead

# ? Oct 18, 2021 13:55

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# ? Dec 6, 2025 00:56

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

You gotta do it in node because there's only one usable thread

# ? Oct 18, 2021 14:10

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware / Software Crap > YOSPOS > awful programming: Somebody set up us the BOM

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