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Also check out the lovely Cum Sea at the top of the same map
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Jan 28, 2023 17:25
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if you really wanna get into the weeds of diagrams that are exactly the system, can i interest you in the nightmare that is simulink
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Jan 28, 2023 17:28
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Bloody posted:if you really wanna get into the weeds of diagrams that are exactly the system, can i interest you in the nightmare that is simulink god lol that brings back memories
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Jan 28, 2023 17:35
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bob dobbs is dead posted:tef also parsed my statement that its therapy as me saying that its useless, the whole point mononcqc and I are making is that "maps omit detail by their nature, and sometimes that lets you focus on what's important, even though you can also use it to focus on what's not important, but that is an reflection of the map's quality, rather than the quality of mapping itself" meanwhile, your point, the one you've been making, might be best summed up in the following verbatim quotes: - "the diagrams with little boxes and arrows are there to make you feel smart and give the management less anxiety." - "they're supposed to communicate the structure of your system, but will they ever actually do that? or get close to do that?" "- not even for communication, is what i'm saying. " - "who gives a flying gently caress about anything being connected to reality in any way. the nodding and mmhmming is the point" - "but you cant even navigate by it either, is my point. liturgical document, like the jerusalem map"' it's probably the bit where you said stuff like this that gave me the impression you think it's 'not useful for communication', given you said explicitly that several times over, rather than the bit where you compare it to therapy, if that helps your argument boils down to "i keep seeing comments like 'adds 1 to x' so comments are useless for communication", but given your posts, i can understand why you're often at odds with communicating intent through text or diagrams, it's very off brand
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Jan 28, 2023 17:37
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this is also why i said stuff like "here is the things i've learned from architectural diagrams at work"tef posted:look, "architectural diagrams are useless" is a bold statement to make when they're often the only record of the company's org charts. you can often see how things have changed over time, how responsibilities have moved, and which teams actually talk to one another. and why mononcqc said stuff like this: MononcQc posted:They surface and explicit assumptions people make about the structure, and while they never fully represent it, the ensuing discussion can be useful. it's as if you picked up a book and looked at the index and huffed "a list of words, what good does that do? you're just boasting about your vocabulary" and after a bit more huffing and puffing, you picked up the table of contents, "great, more lists? this doesn't mean i know what's in the book. this is just decorative" when neither of us are saying "a table of contents or an index is a substitute", we're saying that a good architecture diagram can be a guide, and help you ask questions to further your understanding, and occasionally answer questions too like "which things do my team work on", or "what things do my team rely on", or "who do i have to talk to go get a bug fixed"
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Jan 28, 2023 17:43
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my entire point is that they're sermons, not lectures. panegyrics and mandalas, not manuals that's an underlying bait-and-switch for the max/msps and simulinks of the world: they sort of promise you that you'll be able to write the code in that panegyric liturgical way and then actual coding has to happen so you're forced to write an infernal mess and the visual effect is like a sand mandala laid down by tweakers
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Jan 28, 2023 17:46
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sure enough, programmers, and managers really do suck at documentation, no matter the form, but i don't go around yelling "comments are useless" even though i have seen some awful, terrible documentation in my time on this god forsaken world but that's why i say things like "comments should make intent clear, not mechanism. it's the code's job to make the code's operation clear, but a good comment can tell you _why_ they're doing it that way, maybe even _why_ they aren't doing it another. yes, comments have a maintenance burden, and bad comments only bring misery, but a good comment pays it's way through reducing misunderstandings"
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Jan 28, 2023 17:47
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bob dobbs is dead posted:my entire point is that they're sermons, not lectures. panegyrics and mandalas, not manuals if i have to read your posts then please for the love of christ, read your own posts too before trying to summarise them
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Jan 28, 2023 17:48
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I am sorry your experience talking with people you work with and describing said areas of work has been so abysmal, bob.
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Jan 28, 2023 17:48
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like, you see this?Poopernickel posted:I work in a group where this happened: this is an encounter of faith and faithlessness, at root, isnt it? or p2h's anecdote about the insanity with the 70 boxes and compliance people.
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Jan 28, 2023 17:48
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this whole conversation is making me think that communicating with other people is fundamentally impossible so good job everyone
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Jan 28, 2023 17:51
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bob dobbs is dead posted:my entire point is that they're sermons, not lectures. panegyrics and mandalas, not manuals less flippantly, i too have read very bad vision documents i quit a job because some coked up vc wrote an "archtiecture diagram" with all the clouds and boxes and arrows you speak of, including one that just said "deduplication" but i think the problem here is the coked up vc, rather than his confusion between an architecture diagram and a flowchart
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Jan 28, 2023 17:51
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I work in a group where this happened: - someone had alerts correlated in a way that didn't make sense - we took a diagram that showed the data flow of telemetry going to a collector they did not know about - we showed the correlated alerts to all go through that component and some alerts not firing not going through it - the coworker understood why the alerts fired together and why the correlation pointed at a collector outage wowie the map had a use in supporting the explanation and we have direct proof it worked? what the gently caress is happening in this thread?!
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Jan 28, 2023 17:52
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the key difference is i'm able to imagine a world where some diagrams that talk about architecture aren't taken from a slide deck written by someone on a dopamine fast
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Jan 28, 2023 17:53
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tef posted:the key difference is i'm able to imagine a world where some diagrams that talk about architecture aren't taken from a slide deck written by someone on a dopamine fast some of this is colored by my dealing with goddamn vc's a sight more than you, absolutely
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Jan 28, 2023 17:55
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bob dobbs is dead posted:some of this is colored by my dealing with goddamn vc's a sight more than you, absolutely i think we're in agreement now, that sounds like hell and i too would end up being very flippant
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Jan 28, 2023 17:57
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getting flashbacks to a former boss' pitch deck that had things pointing to a cloud, and then putting our logo over the cloud and watching board members and investors clapping and honking like trained seals
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Jan 28, 2023 17:59
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data gravity is what makes all the data flow towards the data lake, therefore if we have more data, it will attract even more data - some basho exec way back when, with probably one of these loving idiotic maps
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Jan 28, 2023 18:00
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i also worked with a founder who insisted on maintaining the system overview, in a ritualistic manner—as if moving the boxes around was him taking charge of the situation. same guy who called for two minutes silence during the all hands every time he got presented with "we won't ship on time", so he could think his way out of it
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Jan 28, 2023 18:03
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i can't think of the amount of managers i've had who's entire mentality is "i moved the post it note, why isn't the work done yet."
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Jan 28, 2023 18:03
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tef posted:i also worked with a founder who insisted on maintaining the system overview, in a ritualistic manner—as if moving the boxes around was him taking charge of the situation. same guy who called for two minutes silence during the all hands every time he got presented with "we won't ship on time", so he could think his way out of it should have had some horn music https://youtu.be/GA3su0ECdPc e: and theres throat singing! should have more throat singing in software imo bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jan 28, 2023 |
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Jan 28, 2023 18:04
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but yeah i think we agree there's a world of difference between people documenting what they work on, and founders/vcs describing their vision even if the latter are aping the former
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Jan 28, 2023 18:09
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I sat through an hour long run through of 'old architecture that used a vendor platform that completely failed and we wasted millions trying to make work' Vs 'new architecture that is exactly the same but we replaced "vendor system" with "two existing ones that we're gonna somehow upgrade"' but left everything else exactly the same. when we said "but if you're not addressing the problems with lack of tie up with consumers that doggged the project" we got told "that's not the priority right now" lol bonus: one of the systems being built out was written pretty recently and entirely using angular which I didn't think anyone used anymore. e: lol quote:AngularJS is a discontinued free and open-source JavaScript-based web framework for developing single-page applications. It was maintained mainly by Google and a community of individuals and corporations. ah yes maintained by google, there's a death sentence if ever I saw one. e2: wait angular is supported and is distinct from angularjs? Who the gently caress decided on that naming conventions Powerful Two-Hander fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jan 28, 2023 |
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Jan 28, 2023 18:10
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one of our early engineering onboarding exercises when we were few enough people was that you attended a meeting where you were given an architecture overview, and next meeting you were the one to give the architecture overview to another new engineer (with a few senior people to correct and complete and support questions). It was a really interesting way to see everyone come up with different representations and whether they'd remember all the services or would show deprecated ones. It's harder to do now that the batches of joining engineers are larger so fewer people have the opportunity of drawing the map on their own from memory, and it's always with a bigger crowd so the formula is changing to be less intimidating.
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Jan 28, 2023 18:11
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true lesson of the day: there should be more throat singing
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Jan 28, 2023 18:12
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look at this poo poo lolquote:The rewrite of AngularJS was called "Angular 2", but this led to confusion among developers. To clarify, the Team announced that separate names should be used for each framework with "AngularJS" referring to the 1.X versions and "Angular" without the "JS" referring to versions 2 and up.[7] totally clear well done
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Jan 28, 2023 18:15
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Angular 2.0 Full Speed
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Jan 28, 2023 18:16
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maybe semver would be actually useful if instead of "major version" it was "you must fork and rename your project. the names must have a levenshtein distance of at least 4"
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Jan 28, 2023 19:15
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previous was angular. new one is Angular-JS. levenshtein 4 done, capitals count, jobs done boss
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Jan 28, 2023 19:17
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dammit time to make a new scheme systematic versioning
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Jan 28, 2023 19:26
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pokeyman posted:maybe semver would be actually useful if instead of "major version" it was "you must fork and rename your project. the names must have a levenshtein distance of at least 4" back in my day, you broke the api, you renamed the library it had some advantages like "you can link both versions of the library into your code" but, alas, ruby developers went "there isn't a bulbasaur2 in the pokedex, this is a terrible name" so here we are
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Jan 28, 2023 19:30
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i don't think i've ever seen an architectural diagram which was actually intended to convey information and not just convey the feeling of information, but i am willing to believe that they exist
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Jan 29, 2023 01:23
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MononcQc posted:data gravity is what makes all the data flow towards the data lake, therefore if we have more data, it will attract even more data look, if you have a better explanation to explain why orgs suck up more and more data and create tools to allow them to suck up even more data than than "data makes data gravity", im sure we'd all love to hear it
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Jan 29, 2023 03:04
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"data gravity" absolutely has the feel of an influential thoughtworks post
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Jan 29, 2023 03:05
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Plorkyeran posted:i don't think i've ever seen an architectural diagram which was actually intended to convey information and not just convey the feeling of information, but i am willing to believe that they exist any time any kind of documentation breaks out a flow chart to try and explain how it works, my brain immediately shuts off and refuses to parse it at all. i don't know what kind of brain they are meant for but it aint mine
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Jan 29, 2023 08:30
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Woof, remind me to never explain how the graph database is laid out, then.
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Jan 29, 2023 08:33
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redleader posted:"data gravity" absolutely has the feel of an influential thoughtworks post
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Jan 29, 2023 09:40
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I have seen plenty of extremely good architectural diagrams but typically in higher rigor engineering environments than typical software development or worse yet startup world
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Jan 29, 2023 22:32
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They called the second Angular "Angular".
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Jan 30, 2023 00:07
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I thought they had renamed Angular (v1) to "AngularJS" but based on googling it seems like maybe it was always "AngularJS" and people just called it Angular for short
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Jan 30, 2023 00:10
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