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Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

I have awakened!

There are many posts. Most excellent.

I will read the many posts.

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Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

A most excellent page snipe.

Yes, well done.

Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.


Asiina posted:

I have awakened!

There are many posts. Most excellent.

I will read the many posts.

I hope you love the words “sussing” and “out”.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Yeah that was a fun reread.

Here are my opinions on sussing out: I'm fine with Bif's usage of the term to describe what I was doing, because it's accurate. I don't know Madman's alignment and am putting some pressure on via a vote to see where it goes.

Something I'm surprised she didn't bring up as a reason she thought that, but I thought made it pretty clear that I'm not certain I'm right was my explanation to MMT. I describe it as "not much of a case yet" and "feels weird" because that's about where I am. It's a very weak D1 case, but my first non-joke thoughts of the game. If that's what we end D1 with, content wise, that would be a shame.

I suppose I don't really have problems with people thinking I'm more certain than I am, because I've put down a vote, so honestly that whole linguistic analysis all reads alignment neutral for me.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



everyone is too well behaved on this wagon, i'm pretty impressed actually. keep it up team!

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

As for Bif and BK, I definitely think Bif comes off looking better. Maybe it's because I know she's right about my motivations, but I don't really see the idea that she's being unclear in any way. She doesn't think it's a strong enough case to vote on right now, but thinks I'm townie for making it. She's vote it at the end of the day if she needed to, but hopefully something better will come along.

Also can we agree that chain-lynches are not actually scummy because like there's no reason that they are. Looking at someone's post and going "if this happens, I'm going to be suspicious of you" is a totally normal and town thing to say. Especially because if you're town there's always a chance you die at night, so why not put your opinions out there now. It's not like you're locking yourself into a vote by saying that. That never actually happens.

Anyway, as for BK, I agree with MMT and it really seems like BK went into this going I WILL CASE SOMEONE, picked Bif, and came up with the reasons afterwards. I think the way he appears to be going after all of it as scummy is what gets me. Like Gaspy broke down Bif's post and went "these are parts I agree with, these are parts I disagree with" which feels townie because he's not approaching the post with his mind already made up. BK seems to decide everything Bif does is more evidence that she's scum. That always has the hallmarks of a fake case to me, since even scum are going to make some good sounding points sometimes.

I'd vote BK.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Max posted:

Anyway, this post caught my eye because I cannot figure out why they would bring up hypothetically be cased instead unless they had a guilty mindset, and would like IcePheonix to expand on this.

Also once again I agree with Max. That IP post pinged me too, in that it feels too defensive a reaction for someone saying "I might be suspicious of you later if this thing happens."

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

hambeet posted:

everyone is too well behaved on this wagon, i'm pretty impressed actually. keep it up team!

YOU SMELL LIKE POOP!

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



chain lynches aren't scummy, they're just bad logic sometimes

Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.


Asiina posted:

Also can we agree that chain-lynches are not actually scummy because like there's no reason that they are. Looking at someone's post and going "if this happens, I'm going to be suspicious of you" is a totally normal and town thing to say. Especially because if you're town there's always a chance you die at night, so why not put your opinions out there now. It's not like you're locking yourself into a vote by saying that. That never actually happens.

Yes to all of this. I think people jump at chain lynches when they’re not really there, in exactly the way you’re suggesting. Saying “if x happens I’ll be suspicious of x-person” isn’t scummy and writing it off as setting up a chain lynch is just kinda shutting down conversation.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Asiina posted:

As for Bif and BK, I definitely think Bif comes off looking better. Maybe it's because I know she's right about my motivations, but I don't really see the idea that she's being unclear in any way. She doesn't think it's a strong enough case to vote on right now, but thinks I'm townie for making it. She's vote it at the end of the day if she needed to, but hopefully something better will come along.

Also can we agree that chain-lynches are not actually scummy because like there's no reason that they are. Looking at someone's post and going "if this happens, I'm going to be suspicious of you" is a totally normal and town thing to say. Especially because if you're town there's always a chance you die at night, so why not put your opinions out there now. It's not like you're locking yourself into a vote by saying that. That never actually happens.

Anyway, as for BK, I agree with MMT and it really seems like BK went into this going I WILL CASE SOMEONE, picked Bif, and came up with the reasons afterwards. I think the way he appears to be going after all of it as scummy is what gets me. Like Gaspy broke down Bif's post and went "these are parts I agree with, these are parts I disagree with" which feels townie because he's not approaching the post with his mind already made up. BK seems to decide everything Bif does is more evidence that she's scum. That always has the hallmarks of a fake case to me, since even scum are going to make some good sounding points sometimes.

I'd vote BK.

to the bold part, but to reiterate what i said earlier, bif has kinda done the exact same thing back to bk. so while i was 'meh' on the whole thing (because you have to start somewhere) bif's last couple of posts on it made me tad less comfortable with bif at this here campfire ya see.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Asphyxious posted:

Yes to all of this. I think people jump at chain lynches when they’re not really there, in exactly the way you’re suggesting. Saying “if x happens I’ll be suspicious of x-person” isn’t scummy and writing it off as setting up a chain lynch is just kinda shutting down conversation.

people abuse the term like people used to abuse omgus.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



like christ, you're allowed to defend oneself

Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.


hambeet posted:

chain lynches aren't scummy, they're just bad logic sometimes

It’s scummy if you just tunnel and don’t assess new information, though. Like if you said something like my above example day 1, then stick to it ignoring night 1 and day 2, that’s dodgy.

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

Asphyxious posted:

It’s scummy if you just tunnel and don’t assess new information, though. Like if you said something like my above example day 1, then stick to it ignoring night 1 and day 2, that’s dodgy.

Yeah, but so is any amount of "##vote whoever okay see you D3" nonsense.

If you're using it as an excuse to check out, that's scummy, but it's the checking out that's scummy not the set up itself.

Wait for the person to do the scummy thing before calling them scum.

(It's my content game all over again)

Asiina
Apr 26, 2011

No going back


Grimey Drawer

hambeet posted:

to the bold part, but to reiterate what i said earlier, bif has kinda done the exact same thing back to bk. so while i was 'meh' on the whole thing (because you have to start somewhere) bif's last couple of posts on it made me tad less comfortable with bif at this here campfire ya see.

I just see that as defending herself though, since BK's posts are about her, so it doesn't really feel like the same thing to me.

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


well let's see what BK's saying by the time I wake up, but the way he was replying sure didn't make me feel any more charitable.

I didn't give my thoughts on TMM in my first post cause at the time I was reacting more to IP, making that mental note about him and putting it out there to needle him a little bit. But when BK was all concerned that it didn't divulge enough of my thoughts about TMM, I made that clear for him... only for him to insist I just still made no sense. Even though he was recapping it like he'd understood perfectly.

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:


hambeet posted:

No soluslunes yet?

I'm here! Finally!

this weekend has been rear end and then my car died for what is likely the stupidest of reasons (easily fixed, but I have to dig around in the engine compartment and it's been raining all day)

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



Huzzah!

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:


And wow, I completely fuckin' missed jokephase.

well let me get in the traditional jokevote regardless

##vote ham n' beets

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:


okay now to move to serious mafia-ing

##unvote

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:


So I just skimmed the BK/Bif thing, and I'll give it more of a think in a few hours, when I've properly caffeinated.

I hope you're all waiting with bated breath for when Solus Gets It Wrong At Mafia Again, and votes to lynch town

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida



Max posted:

Anyway, this post caught my eye because I cannot figure out why they would bring up hypothetically be cased instead unless they had a guilty mindset, and would like IcePheonix to expand on this.

o before e

Anyways, I'm just sick of people deciding my votes ping them on day one. It's always "IcePhoenix seems like they're overjustifying maybe scum??? :thunk:" and then I just vote with a short justification and it's "IcePhoenix is clearly trying to start a bandwagon, scum???? :thunk" and then if I'm out of thread and see a case that's good and agree with it and vote on it it's "Oh is IcePhoenix bussing? SCUM????????!??!!??!?!?!?! :thunk::thunk::thunk:" and I just don't know what you assholes want from me anymore, and it's really annoying because I would just like to play the whole mafia game instead of constantly defending myself on day one which inevitably carries over to the next days because now I'm a target.

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida



oh and I see asiina is in on it too now, loving joy

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:


(also we brought in a pair of new fosters yesterday, which is why I had no time for mafs)

(they were in a barn fire yesterday morning, momma cat got three of the five kittens out, the other two were in the barn during the fire. The male kitten laid over his sister to protect her from the fire, and he's a bit of a crispy critter. No actual burns, but his fur is all singed, sometimes a bit down to the skin, and his whiskers/eyebrows are burnt off. But his sister's unscathed!)

Asphyxious
Jun 25, 2012

I knew the consequences. But... I cannot apologize. I will not. If I should apologize or feel regret, then everything would have been for naught. I will never defeat the scum if I do.


We were having such a chill time :(

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 3982 days!


Good morning thread!

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


Asphyxious posted:

We were having such a chill time :(

things are still chill imo, can't be unchill while looking at that many thunk faces

SolusLunes
Oct 10, 2011

I now have several regrets.

:barf:


Bifauxnen posted:

things are still chill imo, can't be unchill while looking at that many thunk faces

:thunk:

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 3982 days!


Hmmm....I personally think BK comes out better in the Bif/BK thing.

The original BK vote is fine and I think the people trying to say he's manufacturing a case are a little suspect. Especially since he dropped a reaction vote with a decent reason and then things have taken off from there.

So how exactly is that an actual 'case'?

Just go back to the start of it, Bif makes this post:

Bifauxnen posted:

got enough reasons there, bud?

I like Asiina sussing this out and might vote TMM later, but if it turns out to be wrong this is where I'd look first for scum trying to get things rolling.

And a few minutes later, BK votes her for it:

BottleKnight posted:

##vote bif

This reads to me as you determining whether or not to bandwagon, and deciding you might join the bandwagon later. Additionally, it’s weird to phrase it as Asiina “sussing out” when she’s made it clear the case is worth a vote. Additionally, setting up your basically-a-chain-Lynch is an intense hedge. I come away from this post having no idea what you think about TMM.

And from that point, bif seems to turn it more into a conversation about semantics than about alignment calls.

Now come on, who is seriously going to look at that Bif post and blame BK for putting dropping a vote there?

sniper4625
Sep 26, 2009

Loyal to the hEnd


SolusLunes posted:

(also we brought in a pair of new fosters yesterday, which is why I had no time for mafs)

(they were in a barn fire yesterday morning, momma cat got three of the five kittens out, the other two were in the barn during the fire. The male kitten laid over his sister to protect her from the fire, and he's a bit of a crispy critter. No actual burns, but his fur is all singed, sometimes a bit down to the skin, and his whiskers/eyebrows are burnt off. But his sister's unscathed!)

Get well soon Herocat.

Still catching up on what appears to be the now standard flood of overnight posts, but both BK/Bif have explained their positions enough that I don't think either is necessarily coming from a place of bad faith. IPs overly defensive reaction is interesting, but I'm guessing there's some past game history informing that?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 3982 days!


Also, let's not forget about this exchange, it happened shortly after BK drops his bif vote:

BottleKnight posted:

I legitimately still don't know what you think of TMM! It sounds like you have a pretty towny read on him but would still be comfortable voting for him if it came to that?? like, you say you find him unlikely to be scum, but you find asiina towny because you find her case genuine. so then... maybe both of them could be town? but still, the TMM vote is "good enough" for D1?? I just don't get it!

And bif replies with:

Bifauxnen posted:

you just described it perfectly so why are you acting so loving confused

Now, here's the really interesting thing. If you go back and look at bifs posts after the vote, you get this:

Bifauxnen posted:

yeah well you read bad :colbert:

I think Asiina sounds like she's "sussing out" what she thinks of TMM, which implies that despite being sure she wants to vote him, she does not in fact actually know his alignment. This looks townie of her, regardless of whether it ends up right or wrong.

I'm not convinced yet that it's worth a vote yet myself. While I see why TMM reads as weird to her, I also find it a bit unlikely that a scum would come out swinging that fast with such blatant gambler's fallacy nonsense to make themselves look that silly. If nothing else comes up though, it'd certainly be good enough for D1.

And if that is what happens, and it turns out TMM is town, I think that vote of IP's does sound a bit overwrought, like scum trying to get a bandwagom rolling. The "chain lunch" you are assuming for me would depend on a lot of factors between now and then: the TMM lunch happening, him being town, IP not sounding any townier by then, nothing else grabbing me more by then, etc. I would certainly want to NOT pursue this further if he comes up scum.

But nice try.

oh and you just keep on going for a few more posts, don't you.

yeah this is bad.

##vote BK

and these:

Bifauxnen posted:

btw if anyone doesn't know what an Australianism like "sussing out" means, it's ok to admit it and ask for a translation jsyk

Bifauxnen posted:

also lol at the idea of me giving a poo poo about clean hands

Bifauxnen posted:

it feels like scum bullshit, like he's already made up his mind he's going to read everything in the most unfavourable way possible to create a case, and transform a note for later into a whole narrative about chain lunches.

But, then you get this:

Bifauxnen posted:

I don't see what's hard to follow

BK wants to know what I thought about TMM, now I have told him. I like Asiina's effort to case him, but don't agree with the case yet. IP's vote sounds a bit much, like he's trying to overexplain why he's joining in. But hey, for all I know IP just agrees with Asiina in a legit way, and TMM could even be scum. So I sure don't feel like voting IP yet either.

But if TMM got lunched off this and flipped town, that IP post would be where I start looking back. Not "IP is definite scum now, chain lunch time", it is something I would want to remember to look back at and assess to see if he looks the scummiest out of whoever voted him. A lot of other more substantial things could come up by the end of D1 too, that might take precedence!

So when I said "this is where I'd look first for scum" I meant precisely and exactly what I actually said. It is a note to self, or for others to notice on their rereads if I am gone on D2.

Now can anyone spot the problem with this post?

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 3982 days!


I'm about to head out to work, so I'll see if people can spot the problem with that bif post.

Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


TMMadman posted:

And from that point, bif seems to turn it more into a conversation about semantics than about alignment calls.

I "turned it into" a discussion about semantics because BK literally called it weird for me to have used the words I did. I'll be looking forward to seeing his reaction to Asiina herself calling my description of her accurate.

TMMadman posted:

Now come on, who is seriously going to look at that Bif post and blame BK for putting dropping a vote there?

BK didn't just drop a vote. He called my post "setting up your basically-a-chain-Lynch". He is pushing a whole lot of projected meaning into me going "hmm, I gotta remember this thing here just in case"

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002



TMMadman posted:

I'm about to head out to work, so I'll see if people can spot the problem with that bif post.

Hal Insandenza
Feb 12, 2004




TMMadman posted:

I'm about to head out to work, so I'll see if people can spot the problem with that bif post.

The post is too long

Hal Insandenza
Feb 12, 2004




Cat story is amazing

TMMadman
Sep 9, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 3982 days!



Alright then, tell me where in those posts that Bif told BK what she thinks of me?

Hal Insandenza
Feb 12, 2004




IcePhoenix posted:

o before e

Anyways, I'm just sick of people deciding my votes ping them on day one. It's always "IcePhoenix seems like they're overjustifying maybe scum??? :thunk:" and then I just vote with a short justification and it's "IcePhoenix is clearly trying to start a bandwagon, scum???? :thunk" and then if I'm out of thread and see a case that's good and agree with it and vote on it it's "Oh is IcePhoenix bussing? SCUM????????!??!!??!?!?!?! :thunk::thunk::thunk:" and I just don't know what you assholes want from me anymore, and it's really annoying because I would just like to play the whole mafia game instead of constantly defending myself on day one which inevitably carries over to the next days because now I'm a target.

Wow I mean you can do what I do and just ignore them

But overjustifying votes is definitely a thing scum do

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Bifauxnen
Aug 11, 2010

Resurrected
Living in a lighthouse
The lions and the lambs ain't sleeping yet


TMMadman posted:

Alright then, tell me where in those posts that Bif told BK what she thinks of me?

uh

here

in my very first reply to BK

Bifauxnen posted:

I'm not convinced yet that it's worth a vote yet myself. While I see why TMM reads as weird to her, I also find it a bit unlikely that a scum would come out swinging that fast with such blatant gambler's fallacy nonsense to make themselves look that silly. If nothing else comes up though, it'd certainly be good enough for D1.

you just quoted it

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