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queeb
Jun 10, 2004

m





also im a dumbass, i was like why doesnt paranid need any silicon i can set miners up to sell in their space. turns out their space is WAY bigger than just the 3 areas on the highway.

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Ragnar Gunvald
May 13, 2015

Cool and good.


So, trying to meet Dal Busta on a SCA station but im -30 with them.

Any ideas?

Krogort
Oct 27, 2013


timn posted:

The real annoyance comes if you find yourself having to babysit a capital ship and its 10's of fighter craft while you're trying to work on something elsewhere. There are a ton of little deficiencies in fleet AI both in and out of sector that make the experience rough and clunky.

But carrier gently caress things up much better than anything else. And after you get a wharf they are super easy to outfit.
And strangely they don't take that many losses.

timn
Mar 16, 2010


Depends on what you mean precisely. If it's your fighters actually doing the killing it doesn't necessarily matter if they're attached to a carrier or not. In fact it's easier to manage their behavior if they aren't. Carriers are so slow and their autonomous fleet behavior so fiddly that they just drag things down without adding any value in my experience.

Even the raptor with its absurd 90+ medium turrets is kind of eh in direct combat because the AI doesn't do a great job bringing all of those guns to bear against stations and other capital ships. I don't see why you wouldn't just take a handful of auxiliaries instead for repair/rearm and let your fighters run on their own instead of directly attaching them to any capitals.

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Ragnar Gunvald posted:

So, trying to meet Dal Busta on a SCA station but im -30 with them.

Any ideas?

Uh, how? SCA relations are locked at -5 normally, are you using a mod?

Or I guess did you annoy that particular station recently?

timn posted:

Depends on what you mean precisely. If it's your fighters actually doing the killing it doesn't necessarily matter if they're attached to a carrier or not. In fact it's easier to manage their behavior if they aren't. Carriers are so slow and their autonomous fleet behavior so fiddly that they just drag things down without adding any value in my experience.

Even the raptor with its absurd 90+ medium turrets is kind of eh in direct combat because the AI doesn't do a great job bringing all of those guns to bear against stations and other capital ships. I don't see why you wouldn't just take a handful of auxiliaries instead for repair/rearm and let your fighters run on their own instead of directly attaching them to any capitals.

The "point" allegedly of carriers is that they have launch tubes, which allows them to poo poo out their entire fighter complement very quickly, though they still take ages to recover them.

I don't know if the raptor has those because it has the massive grid of launch pads, but other ships should. Auxiliaries do not, and they also don't have many pads either so they will take a while to launch.

OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:41 on May 4, 2020

Krogort
Oct 27, 2013


The carrier will so automatically repair the damaged fighters as well as send them to intercepts ennemies around it so you save having to micro manage it. Just give it a order to attack the big things you want dead.

timn
Mar 16, 2010


That's just the thing though, what's the functional use of having the fighters docked to a capital while in standby in the first place? I think the only thing you get is safe transportation through environmental hazardous and maybe performance savings due to those fighters being de-spawned while docked.

Ironically I think the raptor ends up being crummy for docking throughout relative to it's number of pads because it doesn't have proper launch tubes and the fly-through internal docking space just complicates pathfinding for the AI.

timn
Mar 16, 2010


Krogort posted:

The carrier will so automatically repair the damaged fighters as well as send them to intercepts ennemies around it so you save having to micro manage it. Just give it a order to attack the big things you want dead.

It doesn't work that well in practice unfortunately. The fleet subordinate AI does all kinds of wacky poo poo like queueing up redocking and immediately undocking while valid interception targets are still in range and inconsistently deciding whether to stay in formation or race ahead on approach to a target that the fleet parent is attacking.

I agree that it should be totally hands off and easy, but the fleet AI is just super inconsistent and buggy still.

Krogort
Oct 27, 2013


It looks super cool to launch 40 fighters from a carrier!
Retrieving them is a bit slow though...
And yes the Raptor is too goofy to be really usefu, unfortunately.

Xerophyte
Mar 17, 2008

This space intentionally left blank


Somewhere there's a game where you can organize fleet craft into roles such that the capital ships maintain formation, gunboats provide a screen, bombers go on attack runs and fighters intercept them. X4 is not that game, and your fleets are barely coherent blobs whose only saving grace is that they're fighting other barely coherent blobs that are usually smaller and less well-equipped.

Carriers are nice because they make ordering the destruction of a bunch of destroyers easy, and by the time you have a raptor and 40 tau accelerator/blast mortar chimeras or whatever then the inability of that carrier to use its comically overwhelming firepower efficiently is not usually a problem.

Ragnar Gunvald
May 13, 2015

Cool and good.


OwlFancier posted:

Uh, how? SCA relations are locked at -5 normally, are you using a mod?

Or I guess did you annoy that particular station recently?


The "point" allegedly of carriers is that they have launch tubes, which allows them to poo poo out their entire fighter complement very quickly, though they still take ages to recover them.

I don't know if the raptor has those because it has the massive grid of launch pads, but other ships should. Auxiliaries do not, and they also don't have many pads either so they will take a while to launch.

They got upset with me when I stole a destroyer from them apparently... And a L freighter.

Anyway I can fix it without shooting criminals for 5 hours

OwlFancier
Aug 22, 2013

It is a powerful visual metaphor for my posting.


Though even if the AI did support that the weapons wouldn't, there's no functional need for that kind of behaviour because the game doesn't, and likely couldn't, simulate the kind of weapon limitations that would necessitate it. There's nothing stopping you kitting out a large ship to fight small ships and the way damage works always favours that because if a fighter wing loses ships you have to pay to replace them, whereas large ships fix themselves.

There's a whole bunch of limitations that tie into other elements of the game. For all that it's become a lot closer in terms of interface, it's never going to be Homeworld.

Ragnar Gunvald posted:

They got upset with me when I stole a destroyer from them apparently... And a L freighter.

Anyway I can fix it without shooting criminals for 5 hours

Did you do that recently? Temporary rep loss goes away after a while but if you modded it to make them change permanent rep then I have no idea.

TheDeadlyShoe
Feb 14, 2014

pretense is my co-pilot


-30 is probably temporary rep. fly away somewhere else for a while and come back and your rep with the station should reset to -5

Ragnar Gunvald
May 13, 2015

Cool and good.


TheDeadlyShoe posted:

-30 is probably temporary rep. fly away somewhere else for a while and come back and your rep with the station should reset to -5

Thanks. I've not modded any faction rep so hopefully that's it.

Major Isoor
Mar 23, 2011





Plaster Town Cop

Speaking of SCA, so if I blow up their three meth labs in Silent Witness XI, the rest of the Pact won't mind, right? If they're locked to -5 permanent relations, anyway

Sillybones
Aug 10, 2013

go away,
spooky skeleton,
go away





I thought it was a single civilian ship getting shot by xenon. Saw that it was a criminal so I went to shoot it and as I hit it it exploded into all these. Like stepping on a spider carrying young. This was out in the middle of nowhere space too.



Now they are just fleeing into random directions. Weird.

Now I notice they are all faction ????. Did I break my game?

Sillybones fucked around with this message at 10:25 on May 5, 2020

Antigravitas
Dec 8, 2019

I accept your surrender

Major Isoor posted:

Speaking of SCA, so if I blow up their three meth labs in Silent Witness XI, the rest of the Pact won't mind, right? If they're locked to -5 permanent relations, anyway

No honour among pirates, yes.

Major Isoor
Mar 23, 2011





Plaster Town Cop

Antigravitas posted:

No honour among pirates, yes.

Excellent! Thanks for the confirmation - I always assumed that destroying stations would permanently affect reputation due to it being a more serious 'crime' against the pirates compared to attacking their ships, but it's good to hear that that's not the case.
I'll start evicting them tomorrow then I think, once I've gotten rid of this Xenon I, that's sitting on my doorstep... Then I'll get a Sonra I think, as a boarding ship to steal even more capital ships from SCA :D

Less Fat Luke
May 23, 2003

Just the tip!



Exciting Lemon

Gigantic beta patch out:

Version 3.20 Beta 1 (396825) - 2020-05-05

New Feature: Trade Rules enable improved control over station trade offers, station supply offers and sale of ships.
Added links to "What is X4: Foundations?" video series to External Resources menu.
Added option to import and export individual construction plans to share with community.
Added information about original gamestart to Load and Save menus.
Added missile storage capacity information to missile turrets in Encyclopedia.
Added Mark All as Read option to Encyclopedia.
Added icons to order options in Interact Menu.
Added behaviour icons to Map legend.
Added faction abbreviations to Factions and Relations menu.
Added Start Guidance option to Interact menu of data vaults.
Added Fly To option to Interact menu of deployables and drops.
Added details about mission duration and involved ships to Venture Results menu.
Added match speed indicator to crosshair (default hotkey Shift+X).
Added error message when attempting to trade with stations that do not have docking facilities for current ship.
Removed irrelevant information for unmanned vessels from Object Info menus.
Removed duplicate inventory and station account management from Empire Overview.
Removed ships and stations lists from Empire Overview.
Removed ability to install unsuitable equipment mods for certain types of shields, weapons, turrets and ships.
Improved names of Xenon weapons.
Improved target selection for pirates.
Improved chance of AI pilots opening lockboxes when player not nearby.
Improved trade assignment speed if many subordinates try to trade same ware for their commander.
Improved guidance during Paranid plot maze section.
Improved visibility of target speed indicator in speed-bar against bright background elements.
Improved presentation of player-owned ships on ventures in Property Owned menu.
Improved balancing of Patrol Missions by increasing enemy presence.
Improved map performance in certain situations.
Fixed Split wharves missing Pier.
Fixed Fallen Families faction not building new ships.
Fixed stations not posting public buy offers for supply resources.
Fixed NPC stations disabling some of their production modules indefinitely under rare circumstances.
Fixed crews of mining ships not gaining experience when player not nearby during mining operations.
Fixed ships refusing explicitly given orders to trade with a station that is blacklisted.
Fixed Recall Subordinates command not disarming drones.
Fixed pirate ships not attacking NPC-owned ships that refuse to drop their cargo or comply with inspection protocols.
Fixed ships assigned to Trade for Build Storage using station manager account instead of construction account.
Fixed construction plan Shuffle option using connection modules that are not available.
Fixed accidental friendly fire from turrets on player ship being treated as intentional.
Fixed distress drones being launched prematurely.
Fixed ships not doing damage when player not nearby if they were built with neither weapons nor turrets.
Fixed player-owned capital ships not doing damage to non-hostile targets designated explicitly by player.
Fixed ships sometimes repeatedly getting supplies at fleet auxiliary ships.
Fixed NPC-owned ships paying for ammunition, deployables and drones that they already have when resupplying at player-owned equipment docks.
Fixed some cases of ships not flying correctly around capital ships, specially when docking.
Fixed ships not able to catch and dock on moving Raptor.
Fixed station-based traders buying resources that their station isn't currently buying.
Fixed stations sometimes creating trade offers with zero amounts for wares that are required for production.
Fixed free-flying police and recon ships sometimes getting stuck while scanning something.
Fixed comm response by police when non-player ships are scanned and no illegal wares are found.
Fixed relative movement stopping when getting up from pilot seat.
Fixed speed matching not turning off when changing target.
Fixed distance calculations for teleportation range limits.
Fixed exploit allowing unlimited small ships to be stored.
Fixed exploit allowing crew members to be cloned in certain situations.
Fixed incorrect unpaid plot licences under certain circumstances.
Fixed losing faction reputation from illegal station plots although licence was paid.
Fixed not being able to autopilot to targets that are under construction.
Fixed not being able to request docking at build storage when piloting capital ship.
Fixed rare case of weapons firing under player control when player is no longer controlling ship.
Fixed several hints getting stuck during Flight School tutorial.
Fixed some missions not correctly displaying opposing faction in briefing.
Fixed missing Court faction representative.
Fixed Paranid plot mission A Small Errand getting stuck on objective Await: Further Instructions under specific circumstances.
Fixed conversation option to pay credits in Paranid plot missions Unfolded Potential and An Ethical Challenge only appearing once.
Fixed getaway ship not being recalled from internal storage if it was stored away during Split storyline at Hall of Judgement.
Fixed missing prisoners at Hall of Judgement in Split story.
Fixed plot not proceeding during cutscene to sabotage Scale Plate trade run.
Fixed ships encountered in war subscription missions sometimes being invisible.
Fixed Hatikvah story not always being re-offered when initial station was destroyed.
Fixed Split story getting stuck in Suspicious Split Mission if Passenger Ship was lost.
Fixed mission conversation option for passenger to return to Passenger Ship in Suspicious Split Mission.
Fixed End of Oppression/End of Terrorism missions getting stuck at payment stage if ship NPC contact was on was destroyed.
Fixed HQ Research Module not being named correctly in certain gamestarts.
Fixed HQ Research Module being removed when loading construction plan.
Fixed fleets not being sorted by fleet name in Object List and Property Owned menus.
Fixed trade wares missing in Logical Station Overview if not currently stored.
Fixed turret groups not being highlighted on ship in Ship Configuration menu under certain circumstances.
Fixed inconsistent selection and highlight of shield and turret groups in Ship Modification menu.
Fixed equipment mod category availability if no equipment is installed.
Fixed rounding issues for equipment mod effects.
Fixed station hull percentage not being shown in Info menu unless scan level was at least 80%.
Fixed ship docks being listed as station dock modules in Encyclopedia.
Fixed missing "+" on buttons in Ship Configuration and Player Information menus.
Fixed Trade menu not being visible in certain situations.
Fixed sector map sometimes being broken by deployables ending up in invalid positions.
Fixed Arm/Disarm Turrets option in Interact menu being inconsistent when multiple ships are selected.
Fixed some map controls not working after quick-loading with map open.
Fixed returning venture ships causing performance issues until sent away again.
Fixed excessive sound volume in logo video.
Fixed issue where sounds could be missing or delayed.
Fixed game generating two crash dumps per crash instead of one.
Fixed several causes of crashes.

Note: If a problem is not listed as fixed above then it is probably not being addressed in this patch, but may be planned for a future one.

Less Fat Luke fucked around with this message at 16:09 on May 5, 2020

Antigravitas
Dec 8, 2019

I accept your surrender

This patch just about doubled the fps I get on the map.

Airspace
Nov 5, 2010


Less Fat Luke posted:

Gigantic beta patch out:

Version 3.20 Beta 1 (396825) - 2020-05-05

Fixed excessive sound volume in logo video.


:bisonyes:

I will miss being able to hear it even when my headphones are across the apartment, though.

Xerophyte
Mar 17, 2008

This space intentionally left blank


Less Fat Luke posted:

Fixed accidental friendly fire from turrets on player ship being treated as intentional.

Oh thank gently caress. The inability to help friendly stations because they'd inevitably turn murderous was infuriating.

timn
Mar 16, 2010


Xerophyte posted:

Oh thank gently caress. The inability to help friendly stations because they'd inevitably turn murderous was infuriating.

+1 on this. I was getting a lot of use out of the friendly fire apology mod lately because of this problem.

Xerophyte
Mar 17, 2008

This space intentionally left blank


Well, uh, the very first thing I did on loading my save in 3.20 was try to save the Teladi station in Hewa's Twin from a K and some raiders. It immediately turned hostile from my chimeras shooting wide, so I had to reload and manually retarget them to something further from the station. Looks like it's literally only turret fire.

So, it's still goddamn infuriating. I really can't fathom why the hell Egosoft think that the mere possibility of a player abusing friendly fire forgiveness to very slowly kill a station is a worse thing than stations randomly turning hostile when you're trying to defend them but your AI and/or aim is a bit poo poo. It's extra super frustrating since the hostility is mutual: once the station turns hostile I can't even make my buddy boats not shoot it because clearly this +30 rep allied faction are now baddies that must be destroyed.

I've considered the apology mod, but it still seems kludgy and what I really want is a mod that makes the problem go away. I don't care if it makes it possible for me to be a jerk and shoot friendly stations with zero reprecussions: I can control myself to not do that no problem, while I have close to no control over allies going suicidally berserk over stray shots.

timn
Mar 16, 2010


Weird, so NPC piloted ships you own will still trigger hostility from primary weapon fire? I figured it would be common sense to suppress that unless the ships are explicitly ordered to attack. It makes more sense for the ship you're personally piloting since you have control over that and there's some margin for error.

TheDeadlyShoe
Feb 14, 2014

pretense is my co-pilot


timn posted:

Weird, so NPC piloted ships you own will still trigger hostility from primary weapon fire? I figured it would be common sense to suppress that unless the ships are explicitly ordered to attack. It makes more sense for the ship you're personally piloting since you have control over that and there's some margin for error.

its not usually a problem. I think the allowances made for friendly damage are being overwhelmed by split DPS lol

timn
Mar 16, 2010


Lol that is probably true. But you'd feel pretty vindictive too if you caught a volley of 6 tau accelerators from a friendly NPC out of nowhere.

Shrimp or Shrimps
Feb 14, 2012




Some poor cargo driving fella probably ate a stray shard.

Xerophyte
Mar 17, 2008

This space intentionally left blank


I've found friendly fire aggro to be a constant irritant but, sure, my problem solving button being a carrier full of split heavy fighters with space shotguns and space grenade launchers may be part of the reason why I'm more annoyed by it than most people.

I maintain that trade stations declaring hellwar on my squad of inaccurate morons with heavy weapons is still stupid and annoying.

Shrimp or Shrimps
Feb 14, 2012




It's basically for that reason I don't IS fight to defend race stations, only OOS. I'll only IS fight when attacking an enemy sector. It's annoying. I too would love a mod that just makes friendly stations ignore me shooting at them. Or maybe make it a threshold, like, if you kill a station, reputation drops to -30 race-wide, so I can still declare war on a race and just start by taking out a defense station.

Sillybones
Aug 10, 2013

go away,
spooky skeleton,
go away


I don't know if it is different in a book or something, but they messed up the Carl Sagan quote on the loading screen. lol

Are S class fighting ships worth deploying?

Sillybones fucked around with this message at 02:56 on May 6, 2020

Antigravitas
Dec 8, 2019

I accept your surrender

All my fighters are S. Carriers don't have many M docks and M ships are too slow and take too many hits. A carrier with fighters can usually defend a gate from Xenon with rare fighter losses.

I've found pulse laser Nova Sentinel to be very effective in interceptor duty, probably because of their incredible turn speed.

Now that I produce my own though, I've switched to Mambas with Argon shields. Pulse for interceptor duty, Plasma and Bolt for attack wings.

Xerophyte
Mar 17, 2008

This space intentionally left blank


If min-maxing you should probably deploy almost nothing but S class ships, at least in-sector. They pack a ton of firepower for their cost and are extremely hard for most AI ships to kill. 10 well-chosen fighters with Mk2 stuff and some help from you cleaning out chaff can down a K with no losses.

Corvette and Gunboat type M ships should have a niche as even-heavier fighters and interceptor screens, but the AI is just not good at piloting either them. They're big enough targets to be hit with Serious Guns, but they AI can't dodge with them and the ships don't have enough defense to survive it. In a player's hands, a souped-up Dragon or Nemesis is nimble enough to dodge L turrets and packs a serious wallop for clearing gribbles, but the AI just doesn't use them like that.

L ships are perfectly OK when you're rich and can field enough of them to overwhelm without taking any losses, but if money is ever an object they're just not very cost-efficient.

As for specific ships to use I'm a big fan of the Chimera -- the Split Heavy Fighter -- as has been mentioned. It's almost as nimble as a regular fighter, has a ridiculous 300 m/sē accel with Mk2 engines and a respectable 5 gunpoints. Pulsar Vanguards are also pretty good: 6 guns, but not as fast, nimble or sturdy as a Chimera. Weapons-wise I used to go with Pulse Lasers for dedicated interceptors and Blast Mortar for attackers. Mortars are fantastic damage compared to the other guns due to how the aoe will multi-hit large boats but your little buddies will occasionally do suicidal point blank shots with them, and that ended up being most of my losses.

I think Blast Mortars are probably worth using if you're fighting while poor and need to squeeze as many dead Ks as you can out of 20 MCr or simlar but I decided it wasn't worth the hassle now that I can just fill a carrier to the brim. I've just slapped 3 Plasma Cannons and 2 Tau Accelerators on all of mine so I don't have to think about which fighter is doing what. I very rarely lose them.


E: All this said, by the end game it really doesn't matter and you should field a cool fleet of boats you like watching. When you have the production capabilities then you can beat back the Xenon with all Neutron Gatling and Bolt Turret gunboats for maximum dakka, it's fine.

Xerophyte fucked around with this message at 08:34 on May 6, 2020

timn
Mar 16, 2010


In my limited experience I've found that stations are orders of magnitude tougher than any capital ship and that I don't have the patience to wait for swarms of fighters and capitals to wear them down with plasma.

I think the answer is heavy torpedoes but my testing so far has been limited to Dragon Raiders which turned out to have very small missile capacity as befits their niche. It looks like all of the frigates sport a whopping 100 missile capacity, and hilariously that many heavy torpedoes costs over 2 million all by itself. I was also surprised to see that frigates can carry quite a large number of drones too for their size, which seems like it will simplify escort logistics considerably.

BlankSystemDaemon
Mar 13, 2009

System Access Node Not Found:ins:



welp, crossed 100 hours according to gog, and i bought the game on april 20th

timn
Mar 16, 2010


The important thing is that you're playing the game like it's your job because you want to, not because you have to.

Major Isoor
Mar 23, 2011





Plaster Town Cop

haha yeah, I'm in a similar situation! Started my save a week or so into April, and now I have 110hrs logged ingame according to Steam. Work is getting in my way, so it's not higher - but drat, it makes me wonder how I only put 210hrs into X3TC! I feel like I'm gonna blow past that total playtime count with ease, with X4.

In other news, I have so many spare ships, (particularly M size ones) that I've built myself a marina to park all my space-yachts. :D
48 S pads, 36 M pads and 12 L piers. If that isn't a whole pile of 'first-space problems' I don't know what is, haha

Shrimp or Shrimps
Feb 14, 2012




One thing I'm a little dissatisfied with is the music in X4. I enjoy it well enough, but, like, flying into kingdom end in X3 for the first time and hearing that music, and seeing giant space humpback whales trundling about, was a really memorable and awesome experience.

Oh dear me
Aug 14, 2012

I have burned numerous saucepans, sometimes right through the metal

My biggest dissatisfaction is not being able to get a warning of approaching enemies if I'm not flying myself. I can't see the radar, so I only get visual warning by looking at the map. The pilot will only ask me what to do after they've been attacked, and if I'm looking at the map I have to get out of it quickly to answer them in time, but I need to use the map to see what the enemy is. I wish pilots could just say 'Enemy spotted!' or some such.

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Major Isoor
Mar 23, 2011





Plaster Town Cop

Oh dear me posted:

My biggest dissatisfaction is not being able to get a warning of approaching enemies if I'm not flying myself. I can't see the radar, so I only get visual warning by looking at the map. The pilot will only ask me what to do after they've been attacked, and if I'm looking at the map I have to get out of it quickly to answer them in time, but I need to use the map to see what the enemy is. I wish pilots could just say 'Enemy spotted!' or some such.

Yeah, that's always annoying. You should really be able to set pilot behaviour (i.e. changing it to 'cautious' so if it spots a hostile on the radar, it'll try to give it a wide berth, automatically)

In your situation though, personally I just use the map as you said, then hit the pause/break key to pause the game, issue orders to bugger off, then resume. Not ideal, but it's better than the alternative...losing my ship...

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