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Begemot posted:If you look at the films, we only ever see the Jedi "no attachments" dogma fail, over and over. Correct. The problem is not attachment, the problem is not dealing with loss and grief in a healthy manner. The Jedi live shallow, aloof lives to avoid loss. The Sith gently caress around with necromancy to avoid loss.
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Jul 6, 2024 22:02
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| # ? Dec 7, 2025 12:51 |
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Begemot posted:If you look at the films, we only ever see the Jedi "no attachments" dogma fail, over and over. That's true but I'm not sure it's very good evidence for the point you're trying to make for one pretty important reason It's just a nature of movies that we're going to see the exceptional time with unusual characteristics rather than the tens of thousands of times that things didn't go wrong in the lives of various Jedi, but that is what we saw, the ultra rare exceptions. The examples of Anakin and Luke and Ezra are clearly times when the established Jedi protocol was not followed, so it's hardly proof that following the protocol leads to bad outcomes. If anything it's evidence that even minor deviation from the accepted Jedi lifestyle is awfully risky if you are a realized Force wielder I'm not arguing that I'd like to live the life of a celibate monk or whatever, yeah that seems like it would suck but also a lot of people in real life do that and they aren't walking WMDs
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Jul 6, 2024 22:38
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Jedi dogma cannot fail. It can only be failed.
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Jul 6, 2024 23:38
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Rubber Chicken posted:It's just a nature of movies that we're going to see the exceptional time with unusual characteristics rather than the tens of thousands of times that things didn't go wrong in the lives of various Jedi, but that is what we saw, the ultra rare exceptions. Literally 99.9% of the Jedi supported a fascist government and then fuckin died when they outlived their usefulness.
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Jul 6, 2024 23:48
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Platystemon posted:Jedi dogma cannot fail. It can only be failed. Noe I want to see the movie Dogma but with Jedi instead of the Catholic Church.
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Jul 7, 2024 00:25
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Now I want a Buddy Qui-Gon statue.
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Jul 7, 2024 00:27
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If you can only pass on your religious teachings to 4 year olds because the 10 year olds you teach consistently become school shooters maybe that also says something about your teachings
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Jul 7, 2024 00:40
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It is easier to imagine the return of Palpatine than the end of capitalism - Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker
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Jul 7, 2024 00:40
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Literally 99.9% of the Jedi supported a fascist government and then fuckin died when they outlived their usefulness. This is an entirely different argument, which is fine, but the other one was spiritual/supernatural not political. And I think it's a wild exaggeration to say they supported a fascist government. They were willing to support what were on their face lawful orders from the galactic senate, and while we the viewers knew more, I think it's fair to say that none of them would have supported what Palpatine's plans were if they were stated openly, sith business aside. I'm not sure why the Republic at that time could be considered fascist? There were no repercussions at all for any minority groups or worlds or anything except for those in an alliance with the ones that attacked them. Unless we're supposed to be on the side of an individual capitalist org blockading worlds? They attacked the Senate envoy which was really the start of a war (and specifically tried to kill Jedi) Or I suppose unless you're suggesting the clone army was a repressed minority but that's a whole different can of worms
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Jul 7, 2024 00:55
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:If you can only pass on your religious teachings to 4 year olds because the 10 year olds you teach consistently become school shooters maybe that also says something about your teachings In real life that would obviously be true but again we're dealing with actual extant supernatural evil and the comparison falls flat if you accept the premises provided about the SW world It would be fine for a show to examine those premises and maybe this one is, we don't know that yet, but they're pretty well confirmed by everything we've been shown
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Jul 7, 2024 00:57
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Rubber Chicken posted:In real life that would obviously be true but again we're dealing with actual extant supernatural evil and the comparison falls flat if you accept the premises provided about the SW world We haven't seen any character turn to the Dark Side who wasn't trained, or persecuted either by the Jedi or Sith. The extant supernatural evil seemingly only has power if you indoctrinate and train people to be responsive to it.
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Jul 7, 2024 01:14
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:We haven't seen any character turn to the Dark Side who wasn't trained, or persecuted either by the Jedi or Sith. The extant supernatural evil seemingly only has power if you indoctrinate and train people to be responsive to it. True but we have a pretty small sample size of non-affiliated force users Those light sisters may be the best example but we really don't know much of anything about their principles Or Bendu maybe but we know almost nothing about him Regardless it would require the Jedi to believe that no one else was going out looking for Force users and also believe that their order should die out (which may be true) but they obviously seem to think it is important that someone does the job they're doing It's actually pretty interesting that the night sisters were tolerated even though they were pretty obviously affiliated with the dark side. And maybe that's because they were an insular group that didn't go out looking for other force user kids, but I don't think we really know
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Jul 7, 2024 01:36
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Rubber Chicken posted:That's true but I'm not sure it's very good evidence for the point you're trying to make for one pretty important reason By choosing aloofness, the jedi leave themselves unprepared to deal with those edge cases where it isn't the best option. They found something that worked most of the time, and just kept doing it more and more and more, drilling it into kids younger and younger. They became inflexible and homogenous. The philosophy can be taught and interpreted in a nuanced way that accounts for various situations and personal differences, but the institution that grows out of it wants everyone to be the same, and just follow the rules. As the jedi become part of the governmental structure of the Republic, they have to behave more like bureaucrats, and that means even further flattening down any differences. More strict rules, more appealing to authority and pointing towards dogma. It's not "the good guys are bad, actually", it's that it's more complicated than that, when the rubber meets the road. Being in touch with the force doesn't make them immune to material conditions.
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Jul 7, 2024 01:48
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Begemot posted:By choosing aloofness, the jedi leave themselves unprepared to deal with those edge cases where it isn't the best option. They found something that worked most of the time, and just kept doing it more and more and more, drilling it into kids younger and younger. They became inflexible and homogenous. The philosophy can be taught and interpreted in a nuanced way that accounts for various situations and personal differences, but the institution that grows out of it wants everyone to be the same, and just follow the rules. Yes, fully agree with all this
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Jul 7, 2024 01:57
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Rubber Chicken posted:And I think it's a wild exaggeration to say they supported a fascist government. ... I'm not sure why the Republic at that time could be considered fascist? There were no repercussions at all for any minority groups or worlds or anything except for those in an alliance with the ones that attacked them. Okay, so let’s fix your post to account for the exception. There were MANY repercussions for ALL minority groups or worlds in an alliance with the ones SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Jul 7, 2024 |
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Jul 7, 2024 02:10
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Your claim that forces belonging to the enemy being harmed in wartime is definitionally fascist? lol War sucks, people die. That's bad. But that's not what fascism is. Are you claiming that the Republic rounded up all bug people living on coruscant or Naboo or whatever member world and put them in death camps?
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Jul 7, 2024 02:14
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Rubber Chicken posted:Your claim that forces belonging to the enemy being harmed in wartime is definitionally fascist? Then, by all means, present your definition of fascism for us.
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Jul 7, 2024 02:19
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Opposite to transcendence is immanence. This is a big catch all term for belief systems that believe divinity exists within the material world. Your polytheists, pantheists, animists and what not. If my reading is correct, the witches fall into this category. The spiral and triangle are powerful symbols because they represent the cycling of life. Birth, Living, Death, repeated over and over again. That's why you get a lot of Maiden/Matron/Matriarch triple goddess and gods images in prehistory and the classical world. (that's why Medusa has two sisters just hanging around, btw). Or, in Star Wars, The Ones. Dave has the tent poles set for some Greek pantheon poo poo, especially now that we know ascended Jedi maintain their individuality after death. I also recommend comparing these to their Play Skool versions, The Cosmic Force and the Living Force. edit: what I am saying is, the Jedi don't live deliciously. Marsupial Ape fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jul 7, 2024 |
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Jul 7, 2024 02:24
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Then, by all means, present your definition of fascism for us. Nah not playing that because there's no one agreed upon exhaustive definition But I can tell you "kills people at military targets during wartime" isn't it, because that's everyone that's ever been to war, it's almost just the definition of war The Jedi had no nationalist or racist motives in the clone war, purely military objectives. The Republic ostensibly (again secret sith plans aside) wanted those people to be citizens, not enemies.
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Jul 7, 2024 02:28
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Rubber Chicken posted:They attacked the Senate envoy which was really the start of a war (and specifically tried to kill Jedi) the senator and a jedi landed, walked into a random room of sleeping factory workers, and simply started killing them as they awoke in panic, a reprehensible massacre - like right after being told that those who walk like men are just mindless monsters to kill. anakin's victims were trapped slaves of systematic capitalism, who anakin earlier dreamed of freeing the jedi chose to start a war specifically to dispute the resulting judgements, the jedi order officially weighed the lives of human senators and jedi as worth more than their murdered victims and local court judgements due to political in-groups and race
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Jul 7, 2024 02:40
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Ahsoka is kind of hosed up because it presents the premise that Anakin Skywalker is a cognizant being of great power within the Cosmic Force. He could not even be arsed to show up to tell Ben Solo to cut the poo poo with the melted helmet and hero cult.
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Jul 7, 2024 02:45
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atriptothebeach posted:the senator and a jedi landed, walked into a random room of sleeping factory workers, and simply started killing them as they awoke in panic, a reprehensible massacre - like right after being told that those who walk like men are just mindless monsters to kill. anakin's victims were trapped slaves of systematic capitalism, who anakin earlier dreamed of freeing Look I'm not defending tactics, especially those of Anakin, but you're mischaracterizing that interaction just a bit Their first sign of life was someone running at Padme with a weapon raised, and within striking distance. You could make an argument that Anakin cutting that attacker down with a lightsaber was an overreaction, but not that they just crept in and did a massacre unprompted In fact the only words spoken immediately before that was padme saying that she did not want to start a war and was looking for a diplomatic solution
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Jul 7, 2024 02:50
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Rubber Chicken posted:Those light sisters may be the best example but we really don't know much of anything about their principles If the Nightsisters call upon magical ichor, then maybe those ladies call on the luminiferous aether.
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Jul 7, 2024 03:03
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Somehow I can't help but think that if the project here wasn't about painting the Jedi as the bad guys, some people might be arguing that workers in the literal military industrial complex designing the greatest weapon of mass destruction in history were not mere innocents but rather complicit in the planning of what would become the largest atrocity in history at that time We're holding your guy and torturing him at our illegal munitions factory please don't attack us we are innocent
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Jul 7, 2024 03:03
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Rubber Chicken posted:Nah not playing that because there's no one agreed upon exhaustive definition The Rodia arc of clone wars where the Republic refused to divert military resources to prevent a famine by attacking pirates hitting food transports and who only sent a representative when it was found out that the Separatists had themselves sent food to relieve the famine.
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Jul 7, 2024 03:30
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It was the episode of Clone Wars where Rex gets injured and has to rest on a farm with those sniffly shoopuff creatures. Rex just outright gets snoofed in this episode and it made me wonder how old the timeline of Star Wars goes. When was the first person to get snoofled? Were they a Twi'lek? Questions... The episode is good at illustrating the inner lives of clones, though. I would hate to be a clone! Or would I? The programming in them is real good so they almost never question their existence. Rex says he took a vow but that's like the kids that grow up saying the pledge of allegiance– that's just something you learn that's drilled into you. I don't think anyone would take it seriously.
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Jul 7, 2024 03:31
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Rubber Chicken posted:Nah not playing that because there's no one agreed upon exhaustive definition. I asked for your definition. As the pro-war individual in this discussion, there’s an onus on you here that would be cowardly to shirk. My impression is that you’re avoiding an actual definition in order to toss out these random piecemeal objections - objections like that the Jedi were legally authorized to wage war, didn’t build concentration camps as far as we know, and that subjugation of other races was purely incidental to their project of defending the nation. While there are many definitions of fascism, those objections don’t match any of them.
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Jul 7, 2024 03:34
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:The Rodia arc of clone wars where the Republic refused to divert military resources to prevent a famine by attacking pirates hitting food transports and who only sent a representative when it was found out that the Separatists had themselves sent food to relieve the famine. Ok? This feels like a non sequitur to me. Are you suggesting that any prioritization of military priorities over humanitarian priorities during a hot war is proof of fascism? Again, that seems like just war. And again, without defending specific tactical decisions which could simply be dumb poo poo bad calls
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Jul 7, 2024 03:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:As the pro-war individual in this discussion
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Jul 7, 2024 03:37
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Star Wars TV Megathread: As the pro-war individual in this discussion
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Jul 7, 2024 03:45
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My lord, is this... legal?
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Jul 7, 2024 03:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:My lord, is this... legal? I will make it legal.
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Jul 7, 2024 03:54
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Upon reflection, the "WAR IS NOT THAT BAD - IT IS IN FACT USEFUL IN MANY WAYS" t-shirt clearly implies that war is bad to some extent, so I don't see what the problem is.
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Jul 7, 2024 04:11
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It's called Star Wars, SMG not Star Peace 
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Jul 7, 2024 04:22
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what if they had a star war but nobody came oh wait that's the christmas special
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Jul 7, 2024 04:43
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Ah boy, I’m just so tired of all these Star Wars
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Jul 7, 2024 04:45
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What does the “Unkown Planet” caption mean in the latest Acolyte episode? Unknown to the unseen editor of the text, unknown to OSHA as the POV character, or diagetically unknown to the rest of the galaxy?
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Jul 7, 2024 05:23
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General Dog posted:What does the “Unkown Planet” caption mean in the latest Acolyte episode? Unknown to the unseen editor of the text, unknown to OSHA as the POV character, or diagetically unknown to the rest of the galaxy? Some overworked custodian filled in the wrong field in the Database of Worlds and that's its name now.
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Jul 7, 2024 05:36
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It’s the planet that Unknown Proboscis Bird Game takes place on.
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Jul 7, 2024 05:50
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For a hot second I thought they might be on the final planet from KOTOR, but I guess that’s “Unkown World”. A common mess up.
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Jul 7, 2024 06:08
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