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Bulky Bartokomous posted:Maybe the bulk of the fanbase doesn't enjoy seeing jedi be the baddies? Bulky Bartokomous posted:I've never watched any of the animated shows really or interacted with most the expanded universe stuff so I'm genuinely surprised there is a lot of material portraying the jedi order as bad You keep saying this poo poo, which reinforces my original point that you think “flawed” is the same thing as “bad.” Nothing the Jedi in this show have done has been out of malice. As multiple people have pointed out, they are a group of well-intentioned people with institutional flaws. It makes sense that you haven’t watched much Star Wars outside the first six films, but you should know there’s been a LOT of exploration of how the Jedi aren’t always 100% right, even beyond the cracks in the foundation Lucas showed in the prequels. This show is kind of combining that with very human emotions (“I want to go home,” “I want an apprentice,” “Other cultures are scary to me,” “I deserve to live my life without others policing it,” “I should be allowed to decide who deserves to use power and how”) and shows the tragedies that can result. Hazo fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jul 15, 2024 |
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Jul 15, 2024 17:57
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If there is one constant in the Star Wars, it is that the Jedi teachings are dumb and contradictory and ruin peoples lives.
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Jul 15, 2024 18:00
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Okay if Basil karate chopped everyone into the giant Force hole that would be pretty cool
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Jul 15, 2024 19:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Folks are also sincerely doing a frame-by-frame decontextualization like it’s the dang Rodney King footage lol Edit: Never mind. I wasn't looking at poster names. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jul 15, 2024 |
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Jul 15, 2024 19:32
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I wonder how many of you are still convinced Ben Kenobi is a Krayt dragon.
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Jul 15, 2024 19:43
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Marsupial Ape posted:I wonder how many of you are still convinced Ben Kenobi is a Krayt dragon. Uh, he made the noise??
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Jul 15, 2024 19:49
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...People think he isn't? They really need to rewatch the OT then, because a Krayt Dragon is kinda hard to miss
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Jul 15, 2024 20:30
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DaveKap posted:Hey, someone told me "she's just running over to hug her! There's zero way you can possibly interpret her actions as bad!" What do you expect me to do, just agree? I think it's notable that the most direct parallel to real-world policing isn't even happening in the show, but among the fanbase. The Jedi realize they deeply hosed up immediately and condemn themselves over it; one of them killed himself. And yet there are fans getting out in front of these fictional characters and insisting it was an understandable mistake because the lady did a kinda scary thing, defending them on a front the characters themselves have surrendered (and never fought for). It's like a reflexive need to defend this kind of action regardless of context.
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Jul 15, 2024 20:38
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We can’t lose sight of the fact that this was a home invasion and the intruder can’t really make any appeals to “self defense” when it comes to murdering the home owner. I am from Kentucky and my opinions on killing intruders is not based on my otherwise liberal politics, btw.
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Jul 15, 2024 20:55
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DaveKap posted:What do you expect me to do, just agree? Yeah, of course. You made a mistake, and this is one of many opportunities to resolve that mistake. It’s a cool thing to do.
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Jul 15, 2024 21:53
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Codependent Poster posted:Okay if Basil karate chopped everyone into the giant Force hole that would be pretty cool It would be in keeping with the overall "Whack 'em down the hole" philosophy that underpins all of Star Wars.
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Jul 15, 2024 23:50
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But everyone that's fallen down a hole has returned Palpatine Boba Fett Darth Maul Han Solo
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Jul 16, 2024 01:12
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Marsupial Ape posted:We can’t lose sight of the fact that this was a home invasion and the intruder can’t really make any appeals to “self defense” when it comes to murdering the home owner. I am from Kentucky and my opinions on killing intruders is not based on my otherwise liberal politics, btw.
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Jul 16, 2024 01:15
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DaveKap posted:You know there are people out there arguing that the witches lived in an abandoned mining base, which the show felt the need to explicitly explain, and thus they held no legal right to live there and were instead squatters. Pinkertons brutalizing homesteaders, obviously.
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Jul 16, 2024 01:23
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Bulky Bartokomous posted:This is EXACTLY the kinds of things I don't turn to Star Wars for. Well that explains it Bulky, you unrepentant racist, you might say. that sure was a lot of words that did not address my question at all
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Jul 16, 2024 01:55
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Well played. You caught me. I have a mural of the Rodney King beating on the tailgate of my lifted Ford F350 Super Duty and the rest of the truck is a vinyl wrap of the thin blue line flag. I apply for the police academy every year but I can’t pass the physical fitness test because i weigh 600 pounds. Oh yeah, and I loved the HBO Watchmen series because it portrays police so positively. But it seems you’re the true detective. You sniffed out my authoritarian bootlicking soul through my preference for good Jedi.
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Jul 16, 2024 02:36
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For the record, Batman is also extremely bad. Sorry if you consider Batman your father.
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Jul 16, 2024 02:37
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Again, The Acolyte really doesn't ask you to engage with American policing at all beyond a simple concept of "It's bad to break into someone's house and kill them", a moral that applies to most other professions as well. The direct parallels only happen if you watched a woman get murdered in her home and then say "Well she kinda provoked them by looking threatening", which is not something raised by anyone in the show, including the characters who killed her. Anyway, Bulky Bartokomous posted:A flawed character is interesting. Making an entire group suddenly flawed is lovely retconning. The Jedi are famously flawed, catastrophically so, it's their defining feature. I've watched every single star wars movie and tv show, live action and animated, and I've never seen a Jedi Order that wasn't decaying from top to bottom and rocketing towards its own demise. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jul 16, 2024 |
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Jul 16, 2024 03:06
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Yeah I forget the line exactly but when she says something to the effect of "this arrogance you're displaying right now is going to get all you guys killed one day" she's 100% correct about that! It's like the whole thesis of the first 6 movies.
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Jul 16, 2024 03:26
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The jedi order only ever seems to be mostly "good" in post-ROTJ video games like Jedi Academy, where it's Luke the messiah infallibly leading the new order. I'm glad we didn't get that sort of boring premise for the sequel movies.
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Jul 16, 2024 04:18
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Bulky Bartokomous posted:A flawed character is interesting. Making an entire group suddenly flawed is lovely retconning. Both can be interesting, especially since it's not a retcon, literally the text of every single star wars thing is that the Jedi Order was immensely flawed and their being manipulated and drawn into a war was a bad thing. This series is about a group of 4 Jedi who turbo hosed up a mission, and lied about it, and all had to or are dealing with the reprecussions of what they did and that lie like 10 years later. It is explicitly said that the Jedi Order told them to stop loving messing with the witches, and to leave, but those 4 Jedi didn't, massacred an entire people and lied about it, and took Osha and lied to her about what happened to her family. Like this series is relatively kind to the Jedi Order on the whole, but it shows how easily good intentions, can be hosed without contextual/cultural understanding by Sol, and also through Vern, the corrupting influence that the republic and it's politics have on the Jedi Order, as far as upholding their ideals, which are slowly being sanded away to just become the armed mediators of the republic, which is what they are in TPM. If you don't like it that's fine, I get it, the show is uneven as gently caress, but it's not some grand departure from what the Jedi Order has been since the Phantom Menace, and especially AotC/RotS
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Jul 16, 2024 04:21
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rockear posted:Yeah I forget the line exactly but when she says something to the effect of "this arrogance you're displaying right now is going to get all you guys killed one day" she's 100% correct about that! It's like the whole thesis of the first 6 movies. the jedi are arrogant, smirks the witch standing in her already-burning-down fortress made of flammable oil and candles without so much as a smoke detector, as the witches proceed to go 0 for 50 against 3.5 jedi. ladies did you really think arrows would work? do you know fuckin anything about Jedi? its a completely unearned comment from her. the witches act incredibly arrogantly through the whole show, starting long before the show with the arrogance of artificially creating a force child and ending with their deaths. arrogance in episodes 4, 5, and 6 are primarily displayed by the villains (ie tarkin exploding, the Emperor exploding) TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Jul 16, 2024 |
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Jul 16, 2024 04:29
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Jehde posted:The jedi order only ever seems to be mostly "good" in post-ROTJ video games like Jedi Academy, where it's Luke the messiah infallibly leading the new order. I'm glad we didn't get that sort of boring premise for the sequel movies. Even then they're constant gently caress-ups that continuously have their students turn to the dark side
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Jul 16, 2024 05:30
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:
Worse than that, it's meta "nudge nudge wink wink" crap that has all the wit and subtlety of a truck.
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Jul 16, 2024 05:31
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How is it arrogance to create force twins?
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Jul 16, 2024 05:33
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:How is it arrogance to create force twins? Personally I don't think it's arrogant at all but the history of Star Wars has "the bad guy" saying "it's a bad guy thing."
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Jul 16, 2024 05:38
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:arrogance in episodes 4, 5, and 6 are primarily displayed by the villains (ie tarkin exploding, the Emperor exploding) Except of course all the times Obi, Han, Leia, Luke are arrogant
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Jul 16, 2024 07:35
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the republic and the empire form a symbiont circle, you must understand this
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Jul 16, 2024 07:36
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"...could save others from death, but not himself. And that, young padawan, is the forbidden story of Darth Plagueis which despite being forbidden illustrates perfectly why what you want is against the Jedi code." "But master, Plagueis wanted eternal power over life itself in a desperate bid to keep those he loved preserved for all time - I'm only looking to have some kids?" "It's a story with broad parallels, okay? Now come on, this moss isn't going to gather itself."
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Jul 16, 2024 07:40
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They're not just looking to 'have kids' though. They split one soul into two people in order to have some kind of mysterious ascension/sacrifice ritual when they are 12 years old to 'lead the coven' in a mysterious unexplained manner. They're a cult doing culty things. It's Waco.
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Jul 16, 2024 08:04
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Alchenar posted:They're not just looking to 'have kids' though. They split one soul into two people in order to have some kind of mysterious ascension/sacrifice ritual when they are 12 years old to 'lead the coven' in a mysterious unexplained manner. So they believe that twins are a special gift from God, 12 year olds should have a confirmation and that the children are the future? 
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Jul 16, 2024 08:18
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Dexo posted:Jedi(Individual): Generally mean well and can be heroic, especially during the era post genocide where there is no institutional structure that can be easily rotted. I quite liked Yord as an example of Jedi-rot. Yeah he means well and is occasionally noble and heroic, but he's also kind of a douche. Especially with how he throws his weight around on the Trade Fed ship to get Mae. My biggest issue with Sol is how he dives comically head first into obsessing over making Mae his padawan, especially as that would seem to contravene how jedi are supposed to behave. Ep 7 didn't feel like a demonstration of the flaws and arrogance of the Jedi Order, it felt like a demonstration of how Sol is a loving idiot. The previous flashback episode landed a lot better for me, because while Sol blunders in and makes a mess of things, he's doing it mostly by the book.
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Jul 16, 2024 08:36
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josh04 posted:So they believe that twins are a special gift from God, 12 year olds should have a confirmation and that the children are the future? "Here child have a lighter and some petrol"
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Jul 16, 2024 08:43
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Strom Cuzewon posted:it felt like a demonstration of how Sol is a loving idiot. I'm hoping there's a line about Sol having a vision about raising a Padawan, or foresaw one of the twins deaths. It would go a long way to explain his particularly obsessive behaviour.
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Jul 16, 2024 09:41
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Alchenar posted:"Here child have a lighter and some petrol" This is quite an extrapolation from the horn witch telling Mae to "Get mad" and "Stop your sister from leaving". If you're looking for the character in the story who hands a loaded gun to a child... 
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Jul 16, 2024 09:49
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It’s just bad vibes, all around.
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Jul 16, 2024 13:02
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Relative to the premise, and potential this show had, and the freedom they had to tell a story that is not bogged down by all the mainstream Star Wars lore, this is probably the most disappointing Star Wars show we have had so far. The show doesn't actually bother to comment on anything. We were told that we are going to see the Jedi at the height of their power, and we are going to see how their hubris allowed the Sith to rise. None of that happens. The only commentary the show makes about the Jedi institution is that they are a seemingly decent bunch willing to allow the witches and their force sensitive children to live in peace. When they realize that there is some spooky, dark side force wielder out there - they take it seriously and dispatch a large group of Jedi to stop him. What happens at the witches compound isn't a result of a culture of arrogance and entitlement that has developed among the Jedi. A padawan turns out to be a city boy who hates camping and wants to go home, and Sol becomes obsessed with taking this 10 year old girl to be his padawan. They ignore orders from the council and the ranking Jedi on the mission and go rogue. The witches do the 2 worst possible things when the rogue Jedi show up, they all die, and there is no one to root for. 200 million well spent.
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Jul 16, 2024 13:56
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TyrantWD posted:Relative to the premise, and potential this show had, and the freedom they had to tell a story that is not bogged down by all the mainstream Star Wars lore, this is probably the most disappointing Star Wars show we have had so far. Cannot co-sign this in a universe where Kenobi and Book of Boba Fett exist
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Jul 16, 2024 15:04
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Tender Bender posted:Cannot co-sign this in a universe where Kenobi and Book of Boba Fett exist Those shows were hyped because of the named characters, but they were always going to struggle to do something interesting in that confined space that Star Wars revisited so many times before. This show took shackles off and had the freedom to tell the story they wanted to tell without having 1000 sticky notes reminding them of things they cannot touch or things to take into account, and they still couldn't pull it off.
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Jul 16, 2024 15:20
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Well there’s Skeleton Crew and that Lego series that’s coming out in September (the one with Darth Jar Jar), maybe those will be handled a little better Speaking of, there hasn’t been any recent news on the former has there?
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Jul 16, 2024 15:23
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