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Paper Lion posted:the jedi are inherently bad because they engage in a fascism of the soul, dictating who gets to interact with the living spirituality of the universe and how. Ehh this isn't a super strong argument since they let people leave or flunk out of the order all the time and typically don't even let people join after like age 5
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Nov 19, 2024 05:56
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Rubber Chicken posted:Ehh this isn't a super strong argument since they let people leave or flunk out of the order all the time and typically don't even let people join after like age 5 yes, flunking out or being too old are ways in which you are not allowed to interact with the force being dictated down to you from the jedi. luke was far far far too old and yet he was able to connect with the force. many other characters start late. taking the children young is about removing them from their homes and culture to mold them into more fascists to ensure the cycle continues, not out of any requirement to be a force user.
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Nov 19, 2024 05:59
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Paper Lion posted:yes, flunking out or being too old are ways in which you are not allowed to interact with the force being dictated down to you from the jedi. luke was far far far too old and yet he was able to connect with the force. many other characters start late. taking the children young is about removing them from their homes and culture to mold them into more fascists to ensure the cycle continues, not out of any requirement to be a force user. I really don't know what you're saying here The Jedi do not and cannot dictate how someone interacts with the force Broom Kid and Anakin and all the night sisters and Bendu and a million other things interact with it entirely outside Jedi purview, and Dooku and Ahsoka continue to be active powerful force users after leaving the order If you're saying it's inherently bad for the Jedi to have internal rules about not using force lightning or getting married or whatever that's even less convincing
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Nov 19, 2024 06:05
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the jedi will only teach people if they stay within the jedi way. that involves discarding all your emotions and loved ones, forming no new attachments, and all the other rules they have. the night sisters are shown to be on the run from jedi oppression, and what do you think would naturally happen to cultures that have all their force sensitive children taken from them? that culture dies out. the jedi are the only game in town when it comes to learning more about the force and connecting with it, because they suppress or dismantle the other faiths and ways. imagine if you had a kid and one day at age 3 a bunch of catholic priests rolled in, did some bloodwork and interviews, and said your kid had to go with them. these are, sans even the bloodowork and interviews, actual things that have happened around the world. things that are recognized as genocide.
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Nov 19, 2024 06:25
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Paper Lion posted:the jedi are inherently bad because they engage in a fascism of the soul, dictating who gets to interact with the living spirituality of the universe and how. their extension into fascism of the body, of busting heads and breaking into queer poc spaces to abduct their children, of becoming generals in a wartime, of performing inquisitions is entirely natural. the acolyte is simply visual proof of that connective fibre for the people that could not already make that association. The Jedi are largely composed of good people trying to do good things, who end up doing really bad things because of the power they believe they are entitled to (because they're good and will do good) and the political context they believe they need to uphold, because it supports their power, therefore is good. You could characterize that as a fascism of the soul, and it is pretty fascist-adjacent at least, but I think recognizing the institutional evil of the Jedi is a lot more interesting if you accept that they're individually good people. Fascism isn't just something assholes and idiots engage in. Authoritarian power structures are corrosive to even the most idealistic belief systems. I don't think anything you're saying about the Jedi is wrong exactly, but you're leaving out that in every depiction of the Jedi we're supposed to sympathize with them as characters. I don't think this is inviting us to have sympathy for fascists or anything like that, but rather we should be wary of even "good" authorities, because authority itself is corrupting, even for all these individually noble Jedi.
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Nov 19, 2024 06:29
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Paper Lion posted:the jedi will only teach people if they stay within the jedi way. that involves discarding all your emotions and loved ones, forming no new attachments, and all the other rules they have. the night sisters are shown to be on the run from jedi oppression, and what do you think would naturally happen to cultures that have all their force sensitive children taken from them? that culture dies out. the jedi are the only game in town when it comes to learning more about the force and connecting with it, because they suppress or dismantle the other faiths and ways. imagine if you had a kid and one day at age 3 a bunch of catholic priests rolled in, did some bloodwork and interviews, and said your kid had to go with them. these are, sans even the bloodowork and interviews, actual things that have happened around the world. things that are recognized as genocide. I get wanting to make the parallel but The Jedi don't forcibly take kids (I'll grant power imbalance coercion) And more importantly, Catholics irl weren't taking kids with real magic powers in a world where they can very easily fall to actual verifiable, supernatural evil and murder people with their mind If such a power existed, it would not be inappropriate to want to guide them to use it for good (as they obviously genuinely believe)
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Nov 19, 2024 06:35
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The Jedi were forcefully taking kids which is why OSHA and Mae were throwing the test
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Nov 19, 2024 08:47
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Yeah when the space cops gets it in their collective bargaining with the republic to say, look we can't forcibly take your kid, but we do have the right to take them away to test them for midichlorians. Even on worlds and in regions not under Republic control. Sorta hosed, especially that like if you know the Jedi and their powers you know they can manipulate thoughts and actions. Even if they explicitly have never done so, it's a wild power imbalance. I dunno Christians think they are guiding the 'savages' into God's house and eternal life. Which has led to a whole bunch of kidnapping because you know what's best for someone over their own community. "Guiding them" is specifically the reasoning that the canadian residential schools existed and "oops all assimilation with a bunch of dead kids" But also it's the Allegory, mutants are extremely dangerous in X-Men, and registration and mutant discrimination/"cure" are still treated as bad in those stories regardless. Regardless the age of the order, there were force users before the order and force users after the order and operating without the order 's knowledge. Dexo fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Nov 19, 2024 |
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Nov 19, 2024 09:39
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If I wanted to see an endless parade of fascist space wizards fighting other, edgier fascist space wizards I’d something something Warhammer 40K.
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Nov 19, 2024 09:40
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I love star wars and love the Jedi stories and characters in star wars, but yeah like the moment you stop and think about it it is an absolutely hosed institution. It doesn't take away my enjoyment to see something actually start to touch on what happens in those situations where some "bad apples" gently caress up royally, and an institution has to try and protect themselves
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Nov 19, 2024 09:45
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Sash! posted:So do you think they're just using carbonite to protect a statue for shipment or there's a little alien in there that's been converted to...an antique? Luthen Rael: What an ... odd-looking ... figurine!?
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Nov 19, 2024 11:40
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Megillah Gorilla posted:God I wish I had even the tiniest fraction of skill and imagination needed to make props. Go for a walk, look at clouds, cracks in the sidewalk, shadows from sunlight poking through a copse of trees... Start with a shape, add some random symbols and glyphs to it, weather the surfaces, poke a few holes into it, and bam, instant ancient artifact from the old Old Republic era Heck, follow the Blender donut tutorial but make it any shape you want and you're pretty much 90% there, all that's left is some vague lore
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Nov 19, 2024 14:04
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Andor's utter lack of cynicism is what makes all the Easter Eggs great. Yeah some of them get name-checked but it's in the service of adding a little texture to a scene and moving on. It is not important to know what kyber crystal or a rakaatan empire even is to appreciate that Luthen is telling Andor that he's basically granting him his favour and entrusting him with an important token. In less deft Disney Star War hands they'd be mugging for the camera and beating the audience over the head with exposition about the history of these props.
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Nov 19, 2024 14:12
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Well except for the big death star they crammed into the end just to remind you that they haven’t forgotten the old movies.
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Nov 19, 2024 14:19
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Yeah that felt on the nose and made me groan. Real sour note to end on.
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Nov 19, 2024 14:24
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Invalid Validation posted:Well except for the big death star they crammed into the end just to remind you that they haven’t forgotten the old movies. Considering Andor's entire life is building up to his eventual death in the attempt help make victory over the Death Star possible, and the likelihood that the beginnings of that effort will feature significantly in the second season, the post-credit scene feels more like foreshadowing for season 2 than a cheap easter egg.
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Nov 19, 2024 15:01
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Never understood why people want andor to have been making luxury car parts in prison instead of being forced to participate in his own oppression (the death star)
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Nov 19, 2024 15:12
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Invalid Validation posted:Well except for the big death star they crammed into the end just to remind you that they haven’t forgotten the old movies. The Death Star is a powerful symbol of oppression and one deeply linked to what we know to be Cassian's fate. One man, standing up to that is the perfect book end to season one. It's true that the simple act of referencing something familiar gives a cheap thrill, and a lot of Star Wars is built around cheap thrills. I would say even that's not bad in context- you can still enjoy cheap thrills if you want. But Andor rises above that and offers some really strong sincere feelings. So I get why someone would go, "hey, that's one of those cheap thrills, that doesn't belong here!" But if you only look at it on the level of being a reference you're not letting yourself feel what narrative and symbolic weight it has in this story. Basically, Andor earned it. You're allowed to enjoy this one. It's actually really good.
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Nov 19, 2024 15:22
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Slashrat posted:Considering Andor's entire life is building up to his eventual death in the attempt help make victory over the Death Star possible, and the likelihood that the beginnings of that effort will feature significantly in the second season, the post-credit scene feels more like foreshadowing for season 2 than a cheap easter egg. All of this, but I am also sticking with my theory that Palpatine is using Dark Side magic to 'amuletize' parts of the Death Star using intentionally cruel slave labor. Tangent: I'm honestly surprised in all the decades of the EU, nobody ever thought to retcon that the Death Star is full of weird Sith sacred geometry and architecture. There's needs to be scene where somebody pulls up the plans to the first Death Star and starts removing schematic layers to reveal that all the internal support structures form pentagrams or whatever.
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Nov 19, 2024 15:31
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Also the genocide of the Geonosians (in Rebels) and the need for absolutely secrecy to the point of being willing to murder the prison workers, really brings home how much of a big deal the Death Star is. It's the Emperor's one simple trick for bringing the entire galaxy under his bootheel, something that can only be done if it's successfully built before it can be discovered and prevented either militarily or via the senate. Once he had the Death Star he was able to just remove all semblance of opposition and become a true dictator. Ultimately the entire premise of the first film was that blowing up the giant superweapon was a Big loving Deal. And as much as people groan about a second Death Star in Jedi, it's one of the few times in narrative fiction where the bad guys have a functioning and good plan that *almost* worked, and instead of giving up on it because of the one small flaw that ruined it, decided to just do it again and try and avoid that one unforeseen error. (Sure, they make another unforeseen error, but eh.) Andor and Rogue One have contributed so much to making elements of the original frothy little space battle movies deeper, and building up the Death Star's importance is part of that.
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Nov 19, 2024 15:34
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Never understood why people want andor to have been making luxury car parts in prison instead of being forced to participate in his own oppression (the death star) It's a better use of the Death Star than Galen Erso building a flaw into the plans. Have the flaws of the design come from corner cutting, poor labour conditions and hubris rather than one genius scientist hiding a bomb in the system. Galen designing a weakness into the Death Star achieves the same goal of the Empire being undermined by its own arrogance (unwilling or unable to see the flaws it it's own system), but I prefer the Death Star's undoing being the result of cumulative fuckups rather than the acts of an individual.
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Nov 19, 2024 15:42
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Never understood why people want andor to have been making luxury car parts in prison instead of being forced to participate in his own oppression (the death star) Everyone's got a different threshold but I think this would have been a little less ham-fisted and still communicating the same theme if it had been something like blaster rifles or stormtrooper hats or K2 CPUs. E: to build on this I think that would work better with the tone of the show, which isn't terribly interested in sith architecture or super weapons, but a meditation on the banality of evil; the little eichmans who grease the cogs of the machine. Really though it's a nit-pick; I just think it hits particularly sharply for folks who didn't care for it because it was the last shot, a big "ta-da!" Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Nov 19, 2024 |
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Nov 19, 2024 15:50
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Arc Hammer posted:It's a better use of the Death Star than Galen Erso building a flaw into the plans. Have the flaws of the design come from corner cutting, poor labour conditions and hubris rather than one genius scientist hiding a bomb in the system. Galen engineered a gap into one of the protective pentagrams.
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Nov 19, 2024 15:51
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Arc Hammer posted:It's a better use of the Death Star than Galen Erso building a flaw into the plans. Have the flaws of the design come from corner cutting, poor labour conditions and hubris rather than one genius scientist hiding a bomb in the system. I do see the value in that argument, but at least the sabotage represents another layer of resistance by the oppressed against the oppressor rather than them simply failing due to overwhelming complexity It's a different narrative beat but still a decent one. Either way it would have taken a genius scientist, since one would be needed to spot the flaw in the plans if it was unintentional and overlooked by the countless engineers and scientists designing the thing
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Nov 19, 2024 15:57
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I think people are too anti-references. The Death star is just like a symbol of empire using prison labor to perpetuate empire. Yes they could have had them building blaster rifles(I personally would not have prisoners building weapons that like can actually be used in a uprising). Like it was showing that the Empire is using stuff like the PORD, to help secretly build up it's war machine, using enslaved labor. Yes it's a bit cute in the circular storytelling way, as we know the Death Star is the thing that Kills Andor(until Ezra shows up on that beach with TWBW to save Jyn and Andor  ). But I think it's a completely valid reveal. Considering Season 2 is probably going to have some arcs about the Death Star. The ISB crew in Andor mention they have no clue why so much money is going to Scariff, along with Orson Krennic being a character they are bringing into the fold, on the Empire side. It's probably going to be an undercurrent. Maybe our wunderkid Karn winds up finding out too much about it and getting got or something lol. Mostly References to future events or "thing" are fine when they fit thematically with the storytelling. You can make a reference to anything so long as the writing and directing and acting is good. References are only a problem imo when the poo poo around it is bad. Dexo fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Nov 19, 2024 |
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Nov 19, 2024 16:26
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGCnRahQDFE
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Nov 19, 2024 17:24
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the Death Star was such a massive undertaking that there were probably like 200 people trying to sabotage it at any given time. and that's not even factoring in the inherent shoddiness of a fascist project that large, the thing probably would have exploded on its own after blowing up 2 planets anyways
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Nov 19, 2024 17:30
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I don't know why but that Thumbnail triggers my fight or flight.
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Nov 19, 2024 17:36
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Dexo posted:I don't know why but that Thumbnail triggers my fight or flight. Because it’s the WASP-iest creator panel ever??
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Nov 19, 2024 17:45
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I really don't like the Death Star's "flaw" being intentional. A New Hope impresses upon us how tough of a shot it is that Luke makes and how tough it was to even get the opportunity in the first place. It's like finding out someone at Volkswagen was hoping one day a softball pitcher with a wicked windmill would lean out the window of their own car and throw a potato up the tailpipe of the Beetle they're pursuing down the highway while also themselves being pursued by the police. Sure, I guess it could happen!
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Nov 19, 2024 18:02
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Lobok posted:It's like finding out someone at Volkswagen was hoping one day a softball pitcher with a wicked windmill would lean out the window of their own car and throw a potato up the tailpipe of the Beetle they're pursuing down the highway while also themselves being pursued by the police. That's exactly how the Force works.
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Nov 19, 2024 18:27
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Marsupial Ape posted:All of this, but I am also sticking with my theory that Palpatine is using Dark Side magic to 'amuletize' parts of the Death Star using intentionally cruel slave labor. Tangent: I'm honestly surprised in all the decades of the EU, nobody ever thought to retcon that the Death Star is full of weird Sith sacred geometry and architecture. There's needs to be scene where somebody pulls up the plans to the first Death Star and starts removing schematic layers to reveal that all the internal support structures form pentagrams or whatever. I love this theory! It fits with my idea that the entire Clone Wars was just one big long nonstop power boost for Palpatine. He's got the entire galaxy fighting, dying, and he's in control of both sides of it.... my gosh. That's some straight Dark Side cocaine.
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Nov 19, 2024 18:29
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I think showing the deathstar was silly, but I think it would be an interesting plot point where he can verify the superlaser's existence because He's seen that component before
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Nov 19, 2024 18:48
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redshirt posted:I love this theory! Actual chaos magic. Institutionalized chaos and uncertainty to drive down the morale of the populace while maximizing their anxiety and misery. The vanity, hypocrisy, and self-damnation of your officer class and pet oligarchs is the cherry on top.
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Nov 19, 2024 18:48
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Parkingtigers posted:(Sure, they make another unforeseen error, but eh.) But the Emperor said everything was proceeding as he had foreseen. You know he never actually said that "I get thrown down a hole" wasn't what he foresaw.
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Nov 19, 2024 19:15
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Marsupial Ape posted:Actual chaos magic. Institutionalized chaos and uncertainty to drive down the morale of the populace while maximizing their anxiety and misery. The vanity, hypocrisy, and self-damnation of your officer class and pet oligarchs is the cherry on top. Yeah, exactly. Using the system to induce The Dark Side....
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Nov 19, 2024 19:22
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I’d say Acoolyte wasn’t particularly new or different. The Jedi were straight out of the prequels, while Darth Manny and OSHA prefigure ‘Vaderist’ darksiders like Kylo Ren and Vader himself. The show was, really basically, Star Wars minus Palpatine: “how would these mutants behave if Palpatine wasn’t around?” And the answer really isn’t too surprising. The Jedi being complicit in the Republic’s imperialism isn’t news at all. They made a trilogy of movies about it! As a contrast, Ashoka Show is different. Everybody’s an aimless former something-or-other, each character floating around on a boat in a vague wasteland. Fans might be like “wow they’ve finally done ‘The World Between Worlds’ in live action!”, but everything in the series is ‘between worlds’. Obviously a lot of that is deliberate - nomadism and migration as a theme or whatever - but it’s also an escape from the context of the so-called “fragile peace”, where the New Republic has seemingly zero good policies. In a meta sense, it’s Disney saying “we got nothing” - which is new. Like, it’s not even the halfhearted anticommunism of the ‘ST’ but straight-up a myth about… embracing failure, in the sense of trying to spin the aimless detachment as a virtue?
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Nov 19, 2024 19:50
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redshirt posted:Yeah, exactly. Using the system to induce The Dark Side.... To bring admitted magical thinking to the text, it's a whole "as above, so below" thing. If the Force is people and people are the Force, then by making the majority of people miserable and desperate then he can make the Force miserable and desperate...thus creating a Dark Side dominate cosmology. Now, if I can convince you guys that fascism is a kind of misery based magic system wherein the victimization of political enemies and minorities is used to propriate dark gods, then maybe we can have a conversation.
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Nov 19, 2024 20:21
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the jedi create the conditions that lead to the sith. its fascists all the way down
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Nov 19, 2024 21:32
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Marsupial Ape posted:To bring admitted magical thinking to the text, it's a whole "as above, so below" thing. If the Force is people and people are the Force, then by making the majority of people miserable and desperate then he can make the Force miserable and desperate...thus creating a Dark Side dominate cosmology. lol yes! I am 100% on board.
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Nov 19, 2024 21:38
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