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LividLiquid posted:And while I won't lay this at your feet, since it's not the only possible reason to have that opinion, a lot of people really only had an issue with the fictitious chain of command because it was a woman telling a man that he didn't have a need-to-know. Yeah nah that's not my complaint and never has been-- I hate those dorks too. Holdo keeping stuff from Poe was totally unnecessary and led to a whole bunch of other conflict in order to drive the plot forward (a couple other people have mentioned that, for example, maybe Poe wouldn't have tried to mutiny if Holdo hadn't chosen that particular time, with the survival of the Resistance hanging by a thread, to teach him a lesson about authority). Jerkface posted:The setup at the beginning of the movie is that the dreadnought could destroy the raddus, but they can successfully escape at that moment without needing to blow it up. The cannons are recharging and all the supply ships made it out. We only know that the dreadnought would have been deadly later in the film after its revealed they can be tracked and the rebel ships are low on fuel. In that scenario, they could fight the dreadnought, as its defenses were already neutralized. TheDeadlyShoe posted:The Leia Organa Rebellion's whole shtick is blowing up superweapons at high risk. Literally, its all we see them doing in the movies, including about 10 minutes before the start of TLJ. Leia turning around and getting mad at Poe because actually blowing up superweapons doesn't matter is ridiculous. It also begs the question of what exactly the bombers are for. Leia, as leader of a not-that-large rebel band, presumably supervised their acquisition; blowing up the Dreadnought is their ideal use case. It's a huge slow target, large enough to be worth blowing up but small enough that bombers will actually work on it - after all, if the bombers worked on Starkiller Base, they would have used them. Everything shown so far says that this is absolute peak performance by the bombers. They will never do better than this. And if Poe had not used them, they would have been blown up and the crews all killed later in the movie *anyway*. Maybe I should take another watch and pay more attention to the details, but this is how I remember it-- that yeah they could run, but Poe says if they don't take the chance right now then the "fleet-killer" Dreadnought will just find them later and blow them apart.
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Jul 27, 2022 23:27
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Hazo posted:Yeah nah that's not my complaint and never has been-- I hate those dorks too. Holdo keeping stuff from Poe was totally unnecessary and led to a whole bunch of other conflict in order to drive the plot forward (a couple other people have mentioned that, for example, maybe Poe wouldn't have tried to mutiny if Holdo hadn't chosen that particular time, with the survival of the Resistance hanging by a thread, to teach him a lesson about authority). You should rewatch and pay attention.
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Jul 27, 2022 23:33
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I think in a more polished version of the movie you would get a synthesis where it's acknowledged that poe's instinct to destroy the dreadnaught turned out to have some virtue, and bad as the attack was the alternative would have turned out even worse. Something like that would actually help quite a bit, because as this discussion brings out poe is arguably a psychopath who should be in space jail and there's 0 reason for holdo or leia to decide they like him in the end besides him being a main character
No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Jul 28, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 23:41
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I can't imagine this will be anything but a sanitized puff piece.
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Jul 27, 2022 23:42
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Jerkface posted:you're telling me the death star which is the size of a small moon has like 10 tie fighters defending it? the rebels can escape from what looks like the most massive imperial fleet in existence just because they have one planetary ion cannon? In old EU/canon it was a thing that the massive super star destroyers and even most normal imp star deuces were not fully equipped due to shortages in starfighter production.
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Jul 28, 2022 00:32
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chitoryu12 posted:You should rewatch and pay attention. how is that summary wrong No Mods No Masters posted:I think in a more polished version of the movie you would get a synthesis where it's acknowledged that poe's instinct to destroy the dreadnaught turned out to have some virtue, and bad as the attack was the alternative would have turned out even worse. Something like that would actually help quite a bit, because as this discussion brings out poe is arguably a psychopath who should be in space jail and there's 0 reason for holdo or leia to decide they like him in the end besides him being a main character how is he a psychopath
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Jul 28, 2022 01:16
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That DICK! posted:how is he a psychopath I don't think that myself, but I'm responding to people who said he launched the dreadnaught attack solely out of insane bloodthirst, getting a huge amount of his pilots killed for no reason but glory. In my opinion this would merit way more disgust and punishment for poe than leia or holdo actually show, but it seems like something people want to argue so I'm considering it arguable
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Jul 28, 2022 01:25
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No Mods No Masters posted:I don't think that myself, but I'm responding to people who said he launched the dreadnaught attack solely out of insane bloodthirst, getting a huge amount of his pilots killed for no reason but glory. In my opinion this would merit way more disgust and punishment for poe than leia or holdo actually show, but it seems like something people want to argue so I'm considering it arguable It's not insane bloodthirst, what are these words you're trying to shove in people's mouths? I don't really know how to respond in whole to this; what people have described is what happened and is the framing in the film. Acting like we're trying to impugn the honor and character of Ace Pilot Poe Dameron by suggesting that he's some kind of blood-hungry war machine is a strange way to try and "call out" the movie or whatever you're doing here. You can just say you don't like the direction they took his character. That's a perfectly normal thing to do when faced with creative decisions you dislike.
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Jul 28, 2022 01:44
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teagone posted:I feel like it just boils down to Poe getting a lot of people killed and disobeying orders from a superior in his own search for warmonger-fueled glory by taking down a dreadnaught. You can argue that I wrongly percieved an implicit insane here if you really want, but it seems like splitting hairs
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Jul 28, 2022 01:49
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Yeah that is a stunted take, my eyes kind of glazed over it for not thinking much of it. Poe sees a chance to bloody the nose of the most reviled group in the galaxy that they may not get again. He acts impulsively and without consideration for their current mission or the people under his command--and part of his arc in the film is learning both degrees of trust and thoughtfulness--but that's not glory-seeking.
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Jul 28, 2022 01:56
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LividLiquid posted:
No, no, no, a thousand times no. If Bull loving Halsey came out and spouted some nonsense like the stupid "HOPE IS LIKE THE SUN," I'd have the exact same complaints. A gruff world weary cigar chomper wouldn't have been laying off silly platitudes and constantly quoting the out of action commander instead of showing that they were actually in command themselves instead of seemingly deferring to someone that's not even conscious.
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Jul 28, 2022 03:59
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Spookydonut posted:In old EU/canon it was a thing that the massive super star destroyers and even most normal imp star deuces were not fully equipped due to shortages in starfighter production. Bigger thing: Vader pretty much takes out his Vader Bros Wingmen to cover his back while he singlehandedly takes care of the entire situation. Which he comes one Falcon Ex Machina away from actually doing.
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Jul 28, 2022 04:01
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LividLiquid posted:Literally every main character in that movie who's a dude gets loving dunked on by a woman who knows more than him and it drove entitled Star Wars dorks apoplectic. If Holdo were a gruff, hard-nosed, world-weary General played by a beloved character actor who was a man, a lot of those people wouldn't have had this same complaint. ill admit, the film being released within a month of trumps inauguration, the politically established lady pulling rank and being shady and evasive to the guy with sensible objections getting the resistance utterly annihilated made me lol. if it werent for those goddern
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Jul 28, 2022 04:51
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My issue* with #8 is fuel suddenly being an issue when it's literally never been one before. * one of many
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Jul 28, 2022 05:46
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That DICK! posted:...the film being released within a month of trumps inauguration... Opposite ends of the year
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Jul 28, 2022 05:51
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Episode 8’s plot gets convoluted because everything occurs over the course of eight hours, only a short time after the end of the previous film’s fairly major events. We’ve seen, ITT, that nobody‘s really sure what the goals and stakes even are. So, let’s get some basic context out of the way: Partway into Episode 7, the First Order decisively ended the ‘Space Cold War’ with a single shot. The New Republic government and a large chunk of its military forces are gone, and it’s now estimated that “the First Order will control all the major systems within weeks.” Since Snoke already rose to power in the ‘minor systems’ of the Outer Rim, the implication is that the First Order has near-total control of the Galaxy, and is just mopping up small pockets of resistance. So, partway into Episode 7, Leia’s Resistance is turbofucked. Their only short-term goal is evacuation and dispersal. With this in mind, the whole spectacle of destroying the Starkiller device accomplished basically nothing. The enemy had already located their base, and was fully capable of sending in “Fleet Killers” within moments. Leia was not only caught completely unprepared, but was wasting valuable time even after it became clear an attack was imminent. Leia is only alive because the Fleet-Killer inexplicably arrives a day or two late. That’s a miracle. Yet, even then, the Resistance evacuation is an utter shitshow. They forget to fuel the ships, wasting time packing up now-worthless ammunition.... Again, Leia’s only sensible goal here is to disperse everyone as quickly as possible - just grab every warp-capable ship and take off. Instead, she keeps her capital ships grouped in formation, and keeps dozens of warp-capable ships in their hangars. What is she thinking? Long-term, Leia’s goal is to restart the Jedi Order someplace in the Outer Rim: “we need the Jedi Order back.” But that is, of course, an incredibly long-term goal. In the more immediate future, Leia wants to “find a new base. One with enough power to get a distress signal to our allies scattered in the Outer Rim” - and that’s, frankly, insane. There’s no reason to set up a base (full of ammunition!), and send a distress signal, unless Leia is already preparing to initiate the next direct military confrontation. She is delusional. This is where Episode 8 begins.
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Jul 28, 2022 05:56
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It's not a specific plot point but the technical workings of space ships are pure star wars. We see the rebel fighters being fueled prior to the death star attack, the falcon is obviously a focal point of technical happenings, the phantom menace has a focus on the hyperdrive (which is the most common space ship trouble star wars plotting uses), obiwan asks his ship to be refueled in rots, the clones target the fuel cells in aotc, and fuel is a plot point in multiple episodes of the clone wars show. Just because "being low on fuel" hasn't been a plot point doesn't make it absurd to be the focus of a movie.
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Jul 28, 2022 06:03
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If the bombers weren't supposed to destroy the dreadnaught, then why does Poe even do the whole thing where he shoots the point defense lasers? Those aren't the bits that will be shooting at the fleet, it's the giant turbocock of doom on the underside. He does the prank call and "look how good I am at flying" booster run at the defense guns to clear the way for an attack on it.
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Jul 28, 2022 07:55
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Megillah Gorilla posted:My issue* with #8 is fuel suddenly being an issue when it's literally never been one before. Rebels made fuel a big thing throught its first season before the movie was released (as, being the beginning of the Rebellion, fuel was hard to come by) and the other movies do mention it from time to time.
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Jul 28, 2022 12:32
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Solo's entire movie is driven by guys stealing spaceship gas
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Jul 28, 2022 13:16
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Darko posted:Rebels made fuel a big thing throught its first season before the movie was released (as, being the beginning of the Rebellion, fuel was hard to come by) and the other movies do mention it from time to time. Stuff like this is my major heartburn when it comes to trying to discuss the Last Jedi, and it reminds me a lot of the kinds of discourse I saw twenty years ago around the Phantom Menace. Where it isn't enough to say you personally didn't enjoy the direction the movie went, but that it must be objectively bad. Instead of discussing things like characterization, story structure, and messaging, instead plotholes are invented from half-remembered moments in the film, diegetic justifications are spun out of whole cloth about how based on this or that EU property this even would totally work or not work, and--as others have already said--people suddenly become incredibly critical of small points, blowing them out to essay-length discussion when they wouldn't have given the same level of minute scrutiny if this or that scene had its sexes reversed. It's a bevy of criticisms that refuses to engage with the movie as a film, or put in the effort to analyze the thing on what's actually there. It's people bitching that the Phantom Menace was about taxes and how the word Midichlorian ruined the entire franchise all over again. There are a lot of things you could say about the Last Jedi! But instead of talking about how they felt character actions did or didn't make sense, or whether the story echoes its themes well throughout, it's weird geeky poo poo about stuff like trying to post-hoc justify Poe's actions in-universe by making up supposed scenarios where, actually, if he didn't do the thing then later it would've been a problem, despite the film at no point suggesting that. Or that the escape plan wouldn't have worked, despite the film framing it as it would have without it being exposed. It's trying to make the movie factually wrong about itself, which is just odd. You don't need to concoct elaborate situations where Poe was right all along, or where Holdo was actually stupid and short-sighted. You can just say you didn't like the direction they took Poe's character, that it didn't feel congruous with the image you'd been given in TFA, and that it felt like the narrative was working to put him in situations where he was in the wrong. Or that Luke's ultimate endpoint seemed bleak and off-the-mark from where we left him in Return of the Jedi.
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Jul 28, 2022 13:21
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Parkingtigers posted:If the bombers weren't supposed to destroy the dreadnaught, then why does Poe even do the whole thing where he shoots the point defense lasers? Those aren't the bits that will be shooting at the fleet, it's the giant turbocock of doom on the underside. He does the prank call and "look how good I am at flying" booster run at the defense guns to clear the way for an attack on it. With the context established in my previous post, we can do a point-by-point breakdown of what’s actually going on in the film. 1) Leia sends Poe out to cause a distraction, long enough for the evacuation to be completed. As a backup plan, Poe is picking off the AA guns, because lovely bombers are en route to destroy the Fleet-Killer ship - if necessary. In the insane context of the film, this actually makes a degree of sense; Leia’s evacuation is going incredibly badly, so she may as well try anything at this point. She’s desperate. However, the distraction plan actually fails. Poe successfully distracts Hux and prevents him from sortieing any fighters, but the fighters are not the objective. Hux is on an entirely different ship. Leia’s goal is to distract the Fleet-Killer, to prevent the fleet from being killed - yet, at this point, absolutely nothing prevents the Fleet-Killer from killing the fleet. It just conveniently doesn’t, for no reason. Leia is, again, caught totally unprepared and is only alive due to a miracle. 2) Leia orders the bombers back to the hangar, because the evacuation is ostensibly done. Poe disobeys the orders and continues with the original plan of bombing the Fleet-Killer. This part is very unclear because we don’t know the timeframe. We know the Fleet-Killer is just a few minutes away from killing everyone, but Leia is patiently waiting for the bombers to return. (Don’t they have warp capabilities?) Even though the cannons are almost done recharging, Leia definitely seems to believe that she has plenty of time to just sit around. If Leia is right about the timing, and they are in no danger, then Poe is insane to continue the attack. This is an evacuation, and attacking the ship is risking dozens of lives and delaying everything for no real benefit whatsoever. However, if Leia is wrong, then they are all in immediate danger of being killed. The evacuation is not complete, Leia called the bombers back prematurely, and Poe is right to disobey her. Interpretation of the scene depends on how fast you think the bombers are - and, to me, they look slow as gently caress. Being generous, it could be that the timeframe is unclear even to the characters themselves. They themselves have no idea if Leia was right - which may explain why Poe is only demoted instead of, like, being immediately shot in the head. In any case, the whole fixation on keeping the fleet all in formation, gathering everyone together in one spot, and getting all the fighters into the hangars, definitely makes no loving sense. 3) The fleet teleports to a seemingly random point in space. Although they have now technically escaped the baddies, I genuinely have no idea why they would do this. Now they’ve burnt 50% of their fuel, going “nowhere”, when Leia’s (secret) goal was to reach the base on Krait. This raises all kinds of questions, like why weren’t they already in contact with their allies before the evacuation? Why didn’t they have a set rendezvous point? But whatever. In the first few minutes of the movie, Leia proves herself dangerously incompetent, while Poe is only possibly an unstable moron. This is the opening scene that establishes the narrative. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Jul 28, 2022 |
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Jul 28, 2022 13:57
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Ironslave posted:Stuff like this is my major heartburn when it comes to trying to discuss the Last Jedi, and it reminds me a lot of the kinds of discourse I saw twenty years ago around the Phantom Menace. Where it isn't enough to say you personally didn't enjoy the direction the movie went, but that it must be objectively bad. Instead of discussing things like characterization, story structure, and messaging, instead plotholes are invented from half-remembered moments in the film, diegetic justifications are spun out of whole cloth about how based on this or that EU property this even would totally work or not work, and--as others have already said--people suddenly become incredibly critical of small points, blowing them out to essay-length discussion when they wouldn't have given the same level of minute scrutiny if this or that scene had its sexes reversed. When it comes to reading sex/gender/political conflicts into the ST, my mind always goes back to the "little white cuck ball" meme and it reminds me that the whole conversation is usually completely insane and not worth getting involved in on either side.
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Jul 28, 2022 13:57
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Sash! posted:Solo's entire movie is driven by guys stealing spaceship gas Yet another reason Solo flopped You just had a divisive movie where space gas was a plot point, and now you're tripling down on that aspect, on top of Solo's many other hurdles
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Jul 28, 2022 14:20
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I don't have much to say about the conversation in general (not having seen the movie and all), but I would like to add that the Resistance Bombers are ugly as sin, and that the U-Wing from Rogue One is one of the few designs I've seen from the newer Disney movies that I actually like; and even then, I'm not really a huge fan of the design when it has the wings spread. It looks great when they're swept forward in the "U" shape, but not when they're spread open for attack or whatever. Rey's speeder from The Force Awakens is cool as a hodge podge hotrod though; since it's literally just a seat strapped to a huge gently caress off engine. Which implies some additional character information about Rey and Jakku in the bargain. There might be some nice stuff in The Mandalorian however, since I haven't watched it.
tsob fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Jul 28, 2022 |
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Jul 28, 2022 14:42
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Why would the bombers be able to hyperwarp, they're clapped-out rust buckets whose entire purpose in the film is to show how strapped for resources the Resistance is
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Jul 28, 2022 15:01
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2house2fly posted:Why would the bombers be able to hyperwarp, they're clapped-out rust buckets whose entire purpose in the film is to show how strapped for resources the Resistance is They don't look like they can dock on anything, plus basically every other ship (especially for the Rebels) can go to hyperspace.
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Jul 28, 2022 15:03
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The MG-100 StarFortress SF-17 resistance bomber has a hyperdrive according to the wikia, for what it's worth. The Rebellion, and I would assume by extension the Resistance, since it's basically just the Rebellion in a fancy new hat, is characterized by using starfighters/snubfighters that can independently achieve hyperdrive so as for maximum agility in planning battles, and to maximize pilot survival since they're so few in numbers. The Empire disdained that, because they had all the money and resources and so didn't have to give a poo poo about pilot safety.
tsob fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Jul 28, 2022 |
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Jul 28, 2022 15:13
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2house2fly posted:Why would the bombers be able to hyperwarp, they're clapped-out rust buckets whose entire purpose in the film is to show how strapped for resources the Resistance is They're also ridiculously hollow. 
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Jul 28, 2022 15:14
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So why did the Resistance fleet stay together and not warp out to different locations when they realized the big ship could track them?
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Jul 28, 2022 15:20
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tsob posted:The MG-100 StarFortress SF-17 resistance bomber has a hyperdrive according to the wikia, for what it's worth. The Rebellion, and I would assume by extension the Resistance, since it's basically just the Rebellion in a fancy new hat, is characterized by using starfighters/snubfighters that can independently achieve hyperdrive so as for maximum agility in planning battles, and to maximize pilot survival since they're so few in numbers. The Empire disdained that, because they had all the money and resources and so didn't have to give a poo poo about pilot safety. The TIE fighter construction also enforced loyalty. TIEs have no life support or hyperdrive and are designed to dock in hangars instead of landing and taking off easily from a planet surface, which makes it almost impossible for a TIE pilot to desert.
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Jul 28, 2022 15:20
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Burning_Monk posted:So why did the Resistance fleet stay together and not warp out to different locations when they realized the big ship could track them? The first order's resources are effectively infinite in star wars 8. The first order would have just followed them to all the different locations. By sticking together they had an outside chance with the holdo plan. I'm not saying that isn't dumb, but that is the movie's line. The only fly in the ointment is when finn and rose warp out but aren't followed for no apparent reason I can recall
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Jul 28, 2022 15:29
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That's true, although Idunno that it was the whole point. Short-range fighters are a thing, and the Empire has plenty of capital ships. That said, training your pilots to be suicidally loyal and then just throwing their lives away seems like the kind of terrible strategy that Palpatine would embrace because it's funny.
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Jul 28, 2022 15:31
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The bombers taught me that Star Wars is bad when it rips off world war ii
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Jul 28, 2022 15:34
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Mameluke posted:The bombers taught me that Star Wars is bad when it rips off world war ii Really? X-Wings taught me that Star Wars is good when it rips off World War II.
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Jul 28, 2022 15:38
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Burning_Monk posted:So why did the Resistance fleet stay together and not warp out to different locations when they realized the big ship could track them? They say at the start of the chase that they have no idea how the First Order tracked them. It could be a mole or multiple moles, it could be a beacon or multiple beacons. There's no reason to assume that just continuing to jet off will do anything more than drain their fuel for nothing. At the moment they're too far out of range for the turbolasers to penetrate their shields and the First Order can't catch up at sublight speed, so Leia and Holdo instead concoct the plan to evacuate with the cloaked transports.
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Jul 28, 2022 16:00
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Mameluke posted:The bombers taught me that Star Wars is bad when it rips off world war ii https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MptBjyOHKpM
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Jul 28, 2022 16:22
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Megillah Gorilla posted:They're also ridiculously hollow.
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Jul 28, 2022 16:25
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Burning_Monk posted:So why did the Resistance fleet stay together and not warp out to different locations when they realized the big ship could track them? With the war already over before it even began, and no evident resources at her disposal, Leia is effectively preparing to attack the First Order. She's gonna consoldiates her forces, secure a base, recruit a bunch of people, and they're gonna fight back - right away! Just to underline the point: this is simply insane. The Resistance is in a total shambles long before Holdo ever even appears onscreen. So everything's already a disaster, and then it turns out the baddies have instantly tracked down the Resistance with a new technology called "active tracking". (Note: Hux had already employed some kind of tracking technology in the previous film. That's how they were able to locate the Resistance in the first place. Although Leia says it's "impossible", tracking is actually extremely easy in the ST.) Poe now asks for permission to "blow something up" and Leia grants it. This is a fairly sensible choice, I guess, because the Resistance is more hosed than ever and have nothing to lose. They haven't yet figured out how the tracking works, so it seems remotely possible that blowing up ships might do something. However, the attempt immediately fails and all their remaining fighters are destroyed. And, in the meantime, the Resistance has been very slow to move out of range of the enemy weapons. Leia is taken out with a massive head injury. Her last action was to let Poe 'blow something up", but she has otherwise left no clear instructions as to what they're gonna do about the tracking. This is where Holdo steps in.
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Jul 28, 2022 16:35
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Timby posted:I can't imagine this will be anything but a sanitized puff piece. The first episode is about the backgrounds of the principal people behind the original ILM. How into doing visual effects they all were from an early age. And ending with how much work they did leading up to Lucas's return from England. I never paid close attention to narrative of "they hosed around for a year and only had two shots to show for it" instead of "they had to invent/re-invent the tools they needed to do the effects and actually managed to get two shots." The second episode is basically Lucas's retelling of what it was like for both him and ILM to do the effects for Star Wars in that six month crunch. Except made richer by interviewing and showing footage in a way that I felt worked better than previous incarnations I've seen. As for being "puffy", sure. But I was kind of caught off guard with the mention of Marcia Lucas telling Tippit (?) the jewels he'd been excruciatingly gluing to the Death Star trench were too big and needed to be re-done to be smaller. That was a small but funny story and the mere mention of Marcia would have made it easy to cut.
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Jul 28, 2022 16:39
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