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HappyKitty
Jul 11, 2005

https://medium.com/@agramugl/the-new-punk-why-hopepunk-and-noblebright-are-the-sff-genres-of-2019-d19ee6657f64



EDIT: I feel like Anthony Gramuglia has not yet seen the whole series.

HappyKitty fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Jan 26, 2019

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Flytrap
Apr 30, 2013
For the record if you follow their tweets, the entire series is done. It's getting some 50 something episodes.

Apparently when they were making the last episodes there was a lot of crying and hugging cats and screaming "THIS IS YOUR FAULT" at each other from across the studio.

Flytrap fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Jan 26, 2019

Libluini
May 18, 2012

Grimey Drawer

HappyKitty posted:

Hot take: My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic attracted a hateful fandom because it began in the era of New Sincerity; She-Ra and the Princesses of Power attracted such an awesome queer fandom because it began in the era of Hopepunk.

I want to believe you, but I have no idea what either of this means.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Libluini posted:

I want to believe you, but I have no idea what either of this means.

Meaningless buzzwords that we're going to look back on and cringe at in a few years' time. I mean, 'hopepunk' is already a pretty silly name.

Alien Sex Manual
Dec 14, 2010

is not a sandwich

Darth Walrus posted:

Meaningless buzzwords that we're going to look back on and cringe at in a few years' time. I mean, 'hopepunk' is already a pretty silly name.

Iím already cringing at hopepunk fwiw.

HappyKitty
Jul 11, 2005

Flytrap posted:

For the record if you follow their tweets, the entire series is done. It's getting some 50 something episodes.

Apparently when they were making the last episodes there was a lot of crying and hugging cats and screaming "THIS IS OUR FAULT" at each other from across the studio.

:ohdear:

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."
I'm pretty sure Friendship is Magic attracted a hateful fandom because people didn't yet know you have to actively exclude neo-Nazis to be rid of them.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013

Rand Brittain posted:

I'm pretty sure Friendship is Magic attracted a hateful fandom because people didn't yet know you have to actively exclude neo-Nazis to be rid of them.


I think it's simpler than that. Stories about harmless, approachable, essentially -tamed- women are attractive to fascists. The girls of Friendship is Magic are uncomplicated, simplistic canvases on which it's easy for men to project. They're women, but they're not sexual women (partly because they're ponies, partly because it's a kid's show) so they're safe and approachable, and they spend all their time having fun and expressing basic personality traits, so they're not complicated or messy like real women can be. They're low maintenance.

Accomodating women are the ultimate nazi fantasy.

HappyKitty
Jul 11, 2005

Open Source Idiom posted:

I think it's simpler than that. Stories about harmless, approachable, essentially -tamed- women are attractive to fascists. The girls of Friendship is Magic are uncomplicated, simplistic canvases on which it's easy for men to project. They're women, but they're not sexual women (partly because they're ponies, partly because it's a kid's show) so they're safe and approachable, and they spend all their time having fun and expressing basic personality traits, so they're not complicated or messy like real women can be. They're low maintenance.

Accomodating women are the ultimate nazi fantasy.

This is... A Good Analysis

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008

Yep. See also: why so many skeevy dudes like "moe" anime that just focuses on Japanese tweens expressing a single personality trait and being helpless.

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014

Open Source Idiom posted:

I think it's simpler than that. Stories about harmless, approachable, essentially -tamed- women are attractive to fascists. The girls of Friendship is Magic are uncomplicated, simplistic canvases on which it's easy for men to project. They're women, but they're not sexual women (partly because they're ponies, partly because it's a kid's show) so they're safe and approachable, and they spend all their time having fun and expressing basic personality traits, so they're not complicated or messy like real women can be. They're low maintenance.

Accomodating women are the ultimate nazi fantasy.

This theory doesn't work because bronies are all huge perverts about it all of the time. It might be a chaste show for five year olds but they don't seem to have noticed.

Son of Thunderbeast
Sep 21, 2002

HorseLord posted:

This theory doesn't work because bronies are all huge perverts about it all of the time. It might be a chaste show for five year olds but they don't seem to have noticed.

It works perfectly with the theory. Think how obsessed creeps are with getting with a virgin/unspoiled woman (and not one of those whores who has had sex with anybody but them). Ponies are forever this to them

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013
Yeah. It's not that these guys don't have sex thoughts about the lady ponies, it's that the ponies themselves have a passive sexuality. They easily accommodate to the sexual desires of the imposed fantasy, because they're inherently safe.

Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jan 26, 2019

Evrart Claire
Jan 11, 2008
Women who are actively sexual are intimidating to them.

A Sometimes Food
Dec 8, 2010

Libluini posted:

I want to believe you, but I have no idea what either of this means.

Less flippantly New Sincerity is sn artistic movement which is basically rejecting the cynicism of postmodernism and it's successors and continuing from modernism/futurism.

Modernism/futurism themselves being discarded by the artistic community due to how intertwined they got with fascism and postmodernism initially being driven by examining the rotten foundations of it's predecessors that caused them to gel with fascism.

Like most poo poo like this it's hard to summarise but the glib phrase I like is "indulging irony but not cynicism". Which yeah I can see where that would have lead to the brony weirdness.

I got no idea on hopepunk any actual art students care to explain it?

Madurai
Jun 26, 2012

twistedmentat posted:

Captain Marvel could totally join the Princess Alliance as Princess Sparklyfists.

Doesn't Glimmer pretty much have that job already?

Twibbit
Mar 7, 2013

Is your refrigerator running?

Madurai posted:

Doesn't Glimmer pretty much have that job already?

FlameMohawk doesn't have the same ring to it tho

Queen Combat
Dec 29, 2017

Lipstick Apathy

A Sometimes Food posted:


I got no idea on hopepunk any actual art students care to explain it?

Hopepunk is the idea of a work having an undercurrent of hopefulness and optimism in its motivation. That doesn't mean it needs to be explicitly cheerful, like Steven Universe (though SU is hopepunk), even shows like The Handmaid's Tale are classed as it because the main character never gives up and is always striving towards a better tomorrow. Hopepunk also tends to trend towards anti-fascism in some way or another, if not explicitly then also against the root ideas that could lead to fascist reasoning. Also something about promoting individuality/self actualization.

At least, I think, from reading through context. New Sincerity died in 2002 as far as I can tell, though pieces like the new MLP kind of cling to that era, due to it's roots in the 80's.

Queen Combat fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jan 26, 2019

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

Star Trek is ostensibly hopepunk then, it being full utopian and optimistic in its outlook.

Libluini
May 18, 2012

Grimey Drawer

A Sometimes Food posted:

Less flippantly New Sincerity is sn artistic movement which is basically rejecting the cynicism of postmodernism and it's successors and continuing from modernism/futurism.

Modernism/futurism themselves being discarded by the artistic community due to how intertwined they got with fascism and postmodernism initially being driven by examining the rotten foundations of it's predecessors that caused them to gel with fascism.

Like most poo poo like this it's hard to summarise but the glib phrase I like is "indulging irony but not cynicism". Which yeah I can see where that would have lead to the brony weirdness.

I got no idea on hopepunk any actual art students care to explain it?

Oh, I honestly thought this was about music. My interest just instantly turned to vapor.

What is with stuff like Dadaism? Are there still artists into that? It's been a while since I last was to a modern art museum, and I'm a bit out of the loop.

A Sometimes Food
Dec 8, 2010

Libluini posted:

Oh, I honestly thought this was about music. My interest just instantly turned to vapor.

What is with stuff like Dadaism? Are there still artists into that? It's been a while since I last was to a modern art museum, and I'm a bit out of the loop.

Oh art in the broad sense. Music is included.

Autism Sneaks
Nov 21, 2016

The_Doctor posted:

Star Trek is ostensibly hopepunk then, it being full utopian and optimistic in its outlook.

Proponents of "hopepunk" as a thing that's real would agree with you because it's a vague, clumsy retroactive categorization of a broad spectrum of media using a very flimsy connective trope that represents a shallow and narrow interpretation of the subject material (assuming that what's being elevated even has depth to plumb). You could say it's a reaction to decades of cynicism and pessimism primarily in fiction but also elsewhere (like message boards, which makes sense because hopepunk was coined in a Tumblr post), but that would be ascribing more cohesion and intent to it then it actually possesses as a "genre". All you really need to know about it is that it's supposed to be the opposite of "grimdark", which while you can use among the online and everyone will more or less know what you're talking about, is also a vague buzzword that doesn't even come close to describing a literary zeitgeist either.

..oh uh, I just binged through She-Ra and it was very cute and gay and enjoyable to watch even if it felt at times like the animation was way too cheap coming from Netflix, infamous for throwing money at everything

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

Open Source Idiom posted:

Yeah. It's not that these guys don't have sex thoughts about the lady ponies, it's that the ponies themselves have a passive sexuality. They easily accommodate to the sexual desires of the imposed fantasy, because they're inherently safe.

Yea, have you see how many creeps talk about the "presenting" of the ponies? Also the sexual fantasies they come up with almost all involve rape.

Examine any fascist or authoritarian society, and their roles for women are always Mothers and Wives, do what your husband and state asks of you. This means cook dinner, spit out kids and not talk back, and take the punch your husband throws at you. Why conservative and "Traditional values" crowds are always rooted in fascism.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

sucks to be right

Autism Sneaks posted:

..oh uh, I just binged through She-Ra and it was very cute and gay and enjoyable to watch even if it felt at times like the animation was way too cheap coming from Netflix, infamous for throwing money at everything

Anytime the gang was being chased by a large group of enemies (weird bugs in castle corridors, crazed robots, etc) the animation tended to get very noticeably cheap, but I suspect part of that was an artistic choice to reference 70s/80s Saturday morning cartoons which used the same techniques in the same circumstances.

Libluini
May 18, 2012

Grimey Drawer

A Sometimes Food posted:

Oh art in the broad sense. Music is included.

OK, this is starting to confuse me. Let's stop this derail before my head starts hurting. (Thanks to my education, I'm forever unable to see music and art as not distinctive things. Trying to combine them gives me this really severe feeling of dissonance.)


Autism Sneaks posted:

..oh uh, I just binged through She-Ra and it was very cute and gay and enjoyable to watch even if it felt at times like the animation was way too cheap coming from Netflix, infamous for throwing money at everything

Ironically, my reaction was the opposite. I was like "Oh, wow. Looks like they spend ten times as much on this as the creators of the original series!" :v:

HorseLord
Aug 26, 2014
It's difficult for me to find anything about the animation that looks cheap. It's not high budget on-ones stuff with lots of rotating camera work (like say, the broly movie or that last SU episode), but it successfully portrays subtle movements and body language like you would expect to see on real actors. Cheap animation is when filmation captain kirk's head rotates 45 degrees, words come out, and then it rotates 45 degrees back.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013
It's not the new Justice League cartoon slideshow, so it's not particularly cheap. There's some off model stuff but it's fine for what it is.

Basically, it's not Korra Season 1, but it's not the first half of Korra Season 2 either. Just like most American cartoons are now.

Ragnar34
Oct 10, 2007

Lipstick Apathy
Hopepunk is a bad term because cyberpunk, funguspunk etc are all about hypothetical sci-fi societies themed on a unified aesthetic like zeppelins or computers or mushrooms, but fantasy life is awful in the same ways as real life because all the same mechanisms of oppression are still in place. The aesthetic (computers, gas, steam, whatever) is ubiquitous and usually instrumental to oppression. So what's hopepunk?

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

It's when Hope is instrumental to oppression

Zane
Nov 14, 2007

Ragnar34 posted:

Hopepunk is a bad term because cyberpunk, funguspunk etc are all about hypothetical sci-fi societies themed on a unified aesthetic like zeppelins or computers or mushrooms, but fantasy life is awful in the same ways as real life because all the same mechanisms of oppression are still in place. The aesthetic (computers, gas, steam, whatever) is ubiquitous and usually instrumental to oppression. So what's hopepunk?
what the -punk affix has always more fundamentally denoted is a stylistic interest in lo-fi aesthetic and spunky attitude dressed up in the veneer of social criticism

Otherkinsey Scale
Jul 17, 2012

Just a little bit of sunshine!

Libluini posted:

Ironically, my reaction was the opposite. I was like "Oh, wow. Looks like they spend ten times as much on this as the creators of the original series!" :v:

Pretty low bar :v:

But the main thing that stood out is the last episode. You could tell they really wanted to have a Lord of the Rings-style epic battle there.

Ragnar34
Oct 10, 2007

Lipstick Apathy

Zane posted:

what the -punk affix has always more fundamentally denoted is a stylistic interest in lo-fi aesthetic and spunky attitude dressed up in the veneer of social criticism

I meant real -punk :smuggo:

Senior Scarybagels
Jan 6, 2011

nom nom
Grimey Drawer

Ragnar34 posted:

I meant real -punk :smuggo:

I prefer post-punk punkpunk fiction. :colbert:

Son of Thunderbeast
Sep 21, 2002
These forums are postpunk as gently caress

evilmiera
Dec 14, 2009

Status: Ravenously Rambunctious
Postpunk is when Postman Pat's nose is augmented with olfactory boosters and a GPS.

Arc Light
Sep 26, 2013



Son of Thunderbeast posted:

These forums are postpunk as gently caress

Postpunk peaked in 2013; it's all been downhill since then.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006

HorseLord posted:

It's difficult for me to find anything about the animation that looks cheap. It's not high budget on-ones stuff with lots of rotating camera work (like say, the broly movie or that last SU episode), but it successfully portrays subtle movements and body language like you would expect to see on real actors. Cheap animation is when filmation captain kirk's head rotates 45 degrees, words come out, and then it rotates 45 degrees back.
There is something about the perspective on Bow and Glimmer running to She-Ra in the beginning that looks weird to me. I also feel like characters, specifically She-Ra can sometimes look a bit off model, with She-Ra she sometimes seems more bulky.

I think beyond that, the action just isn't particularly boarded that well. They're really good at small character interactions, but the big fights tend to get wonky.

thotsky
Jun 7, 2005

hot to trot
The show jumps sort of interestingly between being a kid-friendly show like what I imagine the pony show is like, and actually engaging with the actual text of its setting, being an insurgency against a fascist invader. The show kind of drags it heels in getting there, but you do have even the happy go lucky gay dude straight up murdering people as the series enters its second half.

On one hand I expect this might please some viewers, especially adult ones, but on the other hand a lot of viewers seem to be into the whole uncomplicated hope punk thing. Does a show about Nazis require depictions of torture and genocide in order to avoid accusations of making light of the subject matter, or is the real wokeness showing happy queer people being happy and queer? The show can't quite seem to decide, but maybe that is the best way of doing it?

HappyKitty
Jul 11, 2005

I just got Soul Calibur VI and this was my first instinct

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N1XBPOXL-o

HappyKitty fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Feb 11, 2019

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Digital Flower
Sep 5, 2011

HappyKitty posted:

I just got Soul Calibur VI and this was my first instinct

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6N1XBPOXL-o

And here I had almost convinced myself that I don't need to buy that game. It's expensive and I don't even like fighting games much. But I guess now I'm going to, thanks a lot. :(

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