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Mr.Pibbleton
Feb 3, 2006

Aleuts rock, chummer.

I'm two episodes in and wow Hordak is having some character development.

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Covok
May 27, 2013

Yet where is that woman now? Tell me, in what heave does she reside? None of them. Because no God bothered to listen or care. If that is what you think it means to be a God, then you and all your teachings are welcome to do as that poor women did. And vanish from these realms forever.

Mr.Pibbleton posted:

I'm two episodes in and wow Hordak is having some character development.

Yeah, I actually feel for the guy now. And I actually really want his relationship with Entrapta to succeed. They clearly have feelings for each other. It's weird because he's such a loving villain. But you kind of get where he's coming from now.

Just like all the villains in the show, he was not given a choice. And then he was rejected for something outside of his control. He's much more like Catra than he realizes. Just like everyone else, I don't think he actually wants to rule the world. He's just doing it because it's expected of him and because it's the only way of getting it the respect of his brother. And that's all he really wants.


It actually really annoyed me when Catra lied and claimed Entrapta brought the rebels.

Don't get me wrong. He's a bad guy. But now I get that his temper is posturing. Some of it is because he feels like he's not good enough. And some of it is because he's in constant pain and knows he's dying and his only salvation is getting off this planet.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas::gas::gas:

I think this is why Shadow Weaver remains the worst person in the show (excluding Horde Prime, who we haven't really met yet). She always had a choice. She was the start of her particular cycle of abuse - she just woke up one day and decided that what she really wanted to do with her life was manipulating children into doing terrible things for her ambitions and leaving them with permanent psychological scars from the experience.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

S3: I was not expecting Entrapta/Hordak as an actual serious thing, and I feel like I have been hit by a truck of "I can't believe how sweet this is

Madurai
Jun 26, 2012

It pleased me to see that Adora is finally developing a healthy mistrust of Lighthope. This season leaned into portraying her as a kind of mirror of Shadow Weaver: an authority figure with an agenda that doesn't include Adora's well-being.

Carlton Banks Teller
Nov 17, 2004


Darth Walrus posted:

I think this is why Shadow Weaver remains the worst person in the show (excluding Horde Prime, who we haven't really met yet). She always had a choice.

Isn't Entrapta guilty of this as well? I know she has a massive fanbase here but I just don't get it. Sure, she's "blinded by science" but she is such in so ethically-blind a way that I don't find her sympathetic at all.

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011

I certainly dont have deep-seated issues involving birthdays.

Carlton Banks Teller posted:

Isn't Entrapta guilty of this as well? I know she has a massive fanbase here but I just don't get it. Sure, she's "blinded by science" but she is such in so ethically-blind a way that I don't find her sympathetic at all.

She's probably one of the more broken people in the show... Her parents have, presumably, been dead for longer than she can remember, she was raised literally by machines. There's a throw away joke with an anime robot that really underlines the real life parallels but basically she is someone who is so walled off from reality that people don't quite catch her deep deep damage. She's alone and lonely even when surrounded by people, never makes true connections except when she finally meets another deranged scientist who can keep up with her and is basically someone who has no links to the world at large which is why shes such an amoral shut in weeaboo incel.

Which isn't to say shes sympathetic in fact its basically the problem that shes the opposite. She doesn't reach out and she walls you out too unless you're into her specific brand of weird bullshit in which case... you're hordak??

Motherfucker fucked around with this message at 08:24 on Aug 3, 2019

Sankara
Jul 18, 2008


h̡͉̻͕̥ḛ̗̯̖̞̫͜y̹̙̠y̹y̰̼̰̬̼̘̝͟ ̞͇̩̲̞͓̖A̸̯̣̘̱d͡o̱r̤̬̦͞a҉̞͔̞͙

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011

I certainly dont have deep-seated issues involving birthdays.
can't believe catra is dead

Ambious
Sep 29, 2016

Hail Hoots!
I think Entrapta is clearly meant to portray autism, which makes her easily manipulable. I'm not sure if it justifies her actions, given autism doesn't mean you don't know good from bad, but I think it makes the manipulation she's been through much more sinister and makes her a victim - up to a point.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas::gas::gas:

Carlton Banks Teller posted:

Isn't Entrapta guilty of this as well? I know she has a massive fanbase here but I just don't get it. Sure, she's "blinded by science" but she is such in so ethically-blind a way that I don't find her sympathetic at all.

I feel like she's just severely clueless, and is slowly (very slowly) starting to get it (thanks to Hordak, of all people). She's not a manipulator, she just likes science and is learning that sometimes, not all science is good because it leads to her friends getting hurt. Shadow Weaver, on the other hand, is fully aware of what she's doing, and carefully plans out every awful thing she does.

Pyrotoad
Oct 24, 2010


Illegal Hen
Entrapta and Hordak are so loving CUTE :swoon:

I'm hoping that Mara being black but her She-ra form being white as shown in season 1 is either a case of 'oops we hadn't designed her in s1', or Adora picturing Mara's She-ra form as looking like her because she didn't know what Mara looked like and just pictured herself instead.

Elfface
Nov 14, 2010

Da-na-na-na-na-na-na
IRON JONAH

Darth Walrus posted:

I think this is why Shadow Weaver remains the worst person in the show (excluding Kyle. Honestly Kyle, why do you even wake up?).

FTFY.

Laughing Zealot
Oct 10, 2012


Goddamn is Catra never gonna stop digging her hole.

HappyKitty
Jul 11, 2005

Soooooooo, anyone else think that Micah, true to the original series, is not actually dead, and that's what he was trying to tell Angella as she flew away?

I highly doubt it'll turn out he was being held captive on Horde World, what with Etheria being stuck in Despondos and all, but could he have been exiled to Beast Island? They have been broadly hinting that that's just where the Horde sticks all of their political prisoners.

galenanorth
May 19, 2016

HappyKitty posted:

Soooooooo, anyone else think that Micah, true to the original series, is not actually dead, and that's what he was trying to tell Angella as she flew away?

I highly doubt it'll turn out he was being held captive on Horde World, what with Etheria being stuck in Despondos and all, but could he have been exiled to Beast Island? They have been broadly hinting that that's just where the Horde sticks all of their political prisoners.


Yes, that seems like the most obvious ending to the sentence "Wait, I'm not ---" stated like he had just realized the portal reality wasn't real.

I liked Catra's glitchiness effect that reminded me of Rob/Dr. Wrecker from Amazing World of Gumball. I like the turn in the "Catra seems even less redeemable than Hordak" direction.

Metalshark
Feb 4, 2013

The seagull is essential.
The ramp up in the final three episodes of this season sure was something. Wow. :stare:

Really looking forward to S4.

Azhais
Feb 5, 2007
Switchblade Switcharoo
I weep a silent tear every time I think about all the death and destruction that could have been avoided if Catra and Adora had just banged

galenanorth posted:

I like the turn in the "Catra seems even less redeemable than Hordak" direction.

I'm also glad that it finally appears that Adora is sick of her poo poo and will hopefully stop holding back in the future. That look Adora gave catra when she got out of the portal was pretty dark.

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.

Catra seems to have taken a hard turn down the Azula line of villainy, which seems increasingly irredeemable. I mean, she basically attempted to destroy the entire world just to get one up over Adora. She's cracked and I don't know how the show is going to fix it or if they even will - which is super interesting because for the first two seasons I had thought it was inevitable that Catra would get a redemption arc. Now I legitimately don't know.

This was a very good season and I await the next one with baited breath.

Laughing Zealot
Oct 10, 2012


Perfuma hugging Shadow-Weaver in the last episode :xd:

I wonder what role the latter's gonna play now. Prior history with the group and all that.

SardonicTyrant
Feb 26, 2016

BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&



This show is that Twister Sister music video, only the kid is Adora, Mark Metcalf is Hordak, and Dee Snider is still himself.

SardonicTyrant
Feb 26, 2016

BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&



Ok, so I just saw Hordak's backstory so now my theory is everyone has been the kid in the Twisted Sister video.

Stenis
Jun 29, 2019

by Nyc_Tattoo

CuwiKhons posted:

Catra seems to have taken a hard turn down the Azula line of villainy, which seems increasingly irredeemable. I mean, she basically attempted to destroy the entire world just to get one up over Adora. She's cracked and I don't know how the show is going to fix it or if they even will - which is super interesting because for the first two seasons I had thought it was inevitable that Catra would get a redemption arc. Now I legitimately don't know.

This was a very good season and I await the next one with baited breath.

The thing that's gonna make it hard to redeem Catra now is that she basically killed Queen Angella

Laughing Zealot
Oct 10, 2012


Stenis posted:

The thing that's gonna make it hard to redeem Catra now is that she basically killed Queen Angella

Eh, I kinda think she's gonna be saved somehow later on. Perhaps by her husband, who's most likely alive somewhere himself. But yeah, Catra's gone completely crazy. It's hard to redeem someone who would rather let everyone die rather than let someone else than her succeed. Like CuwiKhons said, her redemption has gone from 100% certain to a question mark.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas::gas::gas:

Laughing Zealot posted:

Perfuma hugging Shadow-Weaver in the last episode :xd:

I wonder what role the latter's gonna play now. Prior history with the group and all that.


Shadow Weaver's a serial child abuser who just got introduced to a whole new crop of kids. She's already started using one of them as a battery, and said battery's mum just disappeared so she's dangerously short on healthy adult guidance. Things are going to get a lot worse in Brightmoon before they get better.

As for Catra, while she does have a big problem with blaming other people for her own mistakes, she's also right that Shadow Weaver completely broke her mind. She's not going to willingly change sides at this point, but she's probably the most extreme abuse victim in a story for kids about child abuse, so I think that she will end up being treated somewhat kindly in the end. Treating her as completely beyond salvation doesn't seem responsible given the target audience, some of whom may see themselves in her.

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.

Yeah the Shadow Weaver and Glimmer thing already looks bad. I don't think it'll be quite as simple as Glimmer needing a new parental figure and picking the worst possible one because I do think Glimmer still remembers that Shadow Weaver tortured her, but I can see her feeling overwhelmed by her new responsibilities and feeling like she needs Shadow Weaver's magic to get stronger.

As for Catra, I don't know. You're right that this is a kids show and it's a bad look to not let an abuse victim get redemption of some kind, but man. They're really gonna have to work for it and right now I'd buy it more from Hordak than Catra.

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~

Darth Walrus posted:

I think this is why Shadow Weaver remains the worst person in the show (excluding Horde Prime, who we haven't really met yet). She always had a choice. She was the start of her particular cycle of abuse - she just woke up one day and decided that what she really wanted to do with her life was manipulating children into doing terrible things for her ambitions and leaving them with permanent psychological scars from the experience.

I'm probably in the minority here, but I actually find Catra to be a shittier person than Shadow Weaver. Sure, she's a lovely person because of Shadow Weaver, but she's a lovely person that has done more (at least obviously) awful things to people close to her. She not only tried to kill her best friend and sister of years on multiple occasions, but has gone out of her way to make her miserable at every opportunity. She's also lied about and screwed over other friends and allies constantly in order to enable more chances to gently caress up Adora's life. The main reason Entrapta is in the Fright Zone in the first place is because she lied to her about Adora having abandoned her, even though she had to know that wasn't true. And now she's lied to Hordak about Entrapta being the source of his latest set back too.

I suspect the main reason why though is simply that Shadow Weaver is too cold and impersonal to really hate, while Catra is human enough that you can empathize with her in a way you can't with Shadow Weaver and hate both her mindset and actions on a lot more emotional level. That, and the fact that Catra has constantly poo poo all over the protagonists life and tried to kill her, while Shadow Weaver has mostly been in the background as a motivation for Catra herself.

Carlton Banks Teller posted:

Isn't Entrapta guilty of this as well? I know she has a massive fanbase here but I just don't get it. Sure, she's "blinded by science" but she is such in so ethically-blind a way that I don't find her sympathetic at all.

She's not entirely blinded by science though, just mostly. The biggest example of that being this season's finale, where she knew the portal wasn't working and suspected that using She-Ra's sword would gently caress things up, so she wanted to run tests and experiments first to determine the risks; then, when she saw that the risk was "blow up the loving world", she no longer wished to do it. She noted at one point that risk is an inherent part of progress, and she's kind of right about that. She's not entirely careless about risk or her pursuit of science though, so it makes her more sympathetic. Additionally, she actually gives a poo poo about (some) people. Hordak being the best example; immediately trying to find a way to make him feel better when he's falling apart from angst/pain. Not just physically by building him a new armor, but emotionally by talking about how imperfections are beautiful, because they allow you to learn and grow. She's a crazy, hosed up person; but you can see she has some redeeming qualities.

Azhais posted:

I weep a silent tear every time I think about all the death and destruction that could have been avoided if Catra and Adora had just banged

Would it actually have prevented anything though? She hates that Adora is the one that gets Shadow Weaver's love, that everything seems to go right for and that always wins in the end; I doubt having slept with her would change that anymore than growing up alongside her did.

CuwiKhons posted:

I mean, she basically attempted to destroy the entire world just to get one up over Adora.

That's basically true of season one's finale as well, to be fair. Entrapta made it pretty clear that using the machine would have major implications for the entire world, and Catra just ignored her to go straight to using it simply for the chance to one up Adora; and then tried to kill Adora multiple times in the process. The real change this season is that she hosed over an apparent friend in Entrapta to get her way, not just an apparent enemy. Entrapta and Scorpia each know something of what she did in the finale too, so I suspect that while Scorpia won't have given up on Catra, she will have realized that Catra needs more than just her love and that all she was doing is enabling her. Catra has pushed away everyone who liked her in an obsession with being more than Adora, and is only left with Hordak at this point. Who doesn't like her anyway, and will definitely turn on her the second he finds out she lied about Entrapta. Catra will presumably shift allegiance to Horde Prime at some point, but she's running out of friends and allies to burn. It's loving weird to feel more sympathy for and see Hordak as more redeemable than Catra at this point.

Alien Sex Manual
Dec 14, 2010

is not a sandwich

The scene in the trailer with Entrapta in front of those robots that look like Scorpia and Hordak - did that show up in any of these episodes? Iím wracking my brain and I donít remember seeing it anywhere. And I want it to be proof Entrapta makes out okay.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016

Catra is that dude that gets confused why people let politics get in the way of friendship

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.

Labes for days posted:

The scene in the trailer with Entrapta in front of those robots that look like Scorpia and Hordak - did that show up in any of these episodes? Iím wracking my brain and I donít remember seeing it anywhere. And I want it to be proof Entrapta makes out okay.

Yeah it did. It's when Adora is in the alternate timeline caused by using the portal. It's also interesting to me in retrospect that the only robots with definable features were Hordak and Scorpia. By that point, Catra had already betrayed Entrapta and even if she didn't remember it, she knew who her two real friends were.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012
:gas::gas::gas:

tsob posted:

I'm probably in the minority here, but I actually find Catra to be a shittier person than Shadow Weaver. Sure, she's a lovely person because of Shadow Weaver, but she's a lovely person that has done more (at least obviously) awful things to people close to her. She not only tried to kill her best friend and sister of years on multiple occasions, but has gone out of her way to make her miserable at every opportunity. She's also lied about and screwed over other friends and allies constantly in order to enable more chances to gently caress up Adora's life. The main reason Entrapta is in the Fright Zone in the first place is because she lied to her about Adora having abandoned her, even though she had to know that wasn't true. And now she's lied to Hordak about Entrapta being the source of his latest set back too.

I suspect the main reason why though is simply that Shadow Weaver is too cold and impersonal to really hate, while Catra is human enough that you can empathize with her in a way you can't with Shadow Weaver and hate both her mindset and actions on a lot more emotional level. That, and the fact that Catra has constantly poo poo all over the protagonists life and tried to kill her, while Shadow Weaver has mostly been in the background as a motivation for Catra herself.


She's not entirely blinded by science though, just mostly. The biggest example of that being this season's finale, where she knew the portal wasn't working and suspected that using She-Ra's sword would gently caress things up, so she wanted to run tests and experiments first to determine the risks; then, when she saw that the risk was "blow up the loving world", she no longer wished to do it. She noted at one point that risk is an inherent part of progress, and she's kind of right about that. She's not entirely careless about risk or her pursuit of science though, so it makes her more sympathetic. Additionally, she actually gives a poo poo about (some) people. Hordak being the best example; immediately trying to find a way to make him feel better when he's falling apart from angst/pain. Not just physically by building him a new armor, but emotionally by talking about how imperfections are beautiful, because they allow you to learn and grow. She's a crazy, hosed up person; but you can see she has some redeeming qualities.


Would it actually have prevented anything though? She hates that Adora is the one that gets Shadow Weaver's love, that everything seems to go right for and that always wins in the end; I doubt having slept with her would change that anymore than growing up alongside her did.


That's basically true of season one's finale as well, to be fair. Entrapta made it pretty clear that using the machine would have major implications for the entire world, and Catra just ignored her to go straight to using it simply for the chance to one up Adora; and then tried to kill Adora multiple times in the process. The real change this season is that she hosed over an apparent friend in Entrapta to get her way, not just an apparent enemy. Entrapta and Scorpia each know something of what she did in the finale too, so I suspect that while Scorpia won't have given up on Catra, she will have realized that Catra needs more than just her love and that all she was doing is enabling her. Catra has pushed away everyone who liked her in an obsession with being more than Adora, and is only left with Hordak at this point. Who doesn't like her anyway, and will definitely turn on her the second he finds out she lied about Entrapta. Catra will presumably shift allegiance to Horde Prime at some point, but she's running out of friends and allies to burn. It's loving weird to feel more sympathy for and see Hordak as more redeemable than Catra at this point.

Shadow Weaver is worse because her entire life's work is using and breaking kids. Any one of them could be the next Catra, and the ones who aren't still end up permanently scarred. Catra is tragic because the person who raised her and shaped her entire being taught her to value her approval more than anything else in the world, and then made sure she would never get it because she only ever saw interest and value in one of her daughters, and only needed Catra around so she'd have someone to be better than. It was only ever a matter of time until she realised the game was rigged and went full nihilist because her horrible mother never thought it would be useful for her to care about other people, but did give her a master-class in how to manipulate them. Seriously, pretty much every nasty, mind-gamey tactic Catra uses was pioneered by SW.

Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Aug 4, 2019

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~

Darth Walrus posted:

Shadow Weaver is worse because her entire life's work is using and breaking kids. Any one of them could be the next Catra, and the ones who aren't still end up permanently scarred. Catra is tragic because the person who raised her and shaped her entire being taught her to value her approval more than anything else in the world, and then made sure she would never get it because she only ever saw interest and value in one of her daughters, and only needed Catra around so she'd have someone to be better than. It was only ever a matter of time until she realised the game was rigged and went full nihilist because her horrible mother never thought it would be useful for her to care about other people, but did give her a master-class in how to manipulate them. Seriously, pretty much every nasty, mind-gamey tactic Catra uses was pioneered by SW.

I'm aware, and I still find Catra worse. As I said, I'm pretty sure it's simply because Shadow Weaver is more of a background presence though, while Catra is a up front and center as the villain all throughout the show; along with the fact she's straight up tried to murder Adora a dozen or more times at this point and destroy the world on two occasions now. Those things make Catra a lot more visceral and hateful than Shadow Weaver, who is just too much of an inhuman and inscrutable character to feel much of anything for most of the time. Also, while Catra is tragic and was manipulated, at some point you have to start holding people accountable for their own actions and her actions have had far more immediate and obvious effect both on the cast and on the setting than Shadow Weavers.

Alien Sex Manual
Dec 14, 2010

is not a sandwich

CuwiKhons posted:

Yeah it did. It's when Adora is in the alternate timeline caused by using the portal. It's also interesting to me in retrospect that the only robots with definable features were Hordak and Scorpia. By that point, Catra had already betrayed Entrapta and even if she didn't remember it, she knew who her two real friends were.

When not-Entrapta tells them to remove the sword from the portal or somewhere else? Because I rewatched that scene and theyíre not in it.

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.

Labes for days posted:

When not-Entrapta tells them to remove the sword from the portal or somewhere else? Because I rewatched that scene and theyíre not in it.

There's two separate scenes with the robots - there's a brief scene where Glimmer, Bow, and Adora drop into her lair for the first time and she turns around and has the Scorpia and Hordak robots with her, then the scene cuts. Then there's a second scene later where she explains everything and you don't see those two particular robots.

Alien Sex Manual
Dec 14, 2010

is not a sandwich

Thank you, apparently glossed over that one.

galenanorth
May 19, 2016

I missed it the first time, too. It's at 08:55 in S03E6

Whitenoise Poster
Mar 26, 2010
Catra might be hosed up and evil and cross many lines but you have to remember she is a Kitty Cat.

Who can stay mad at a cat, really.

sexpig by night
Sep 8, 2011

by Azathoth
I really don't think Catra's getting a redemption arc, except maybe the Azula 'pity ending' type thing where the point is you just should feel kinda bad for this completely broken person.

Adora's the story of overcoming abuse and maybe it's not terrible if Catra is the story of 'sometimes abuse destroys a person'.

Stenis
Jun 29, 2019

by Nyc_Tattoo

Whitenoise Poster posted:

Catra might be hosed up and evil and cross many lines but you have to remember she is a Kitty Cat.

Who can stay mad at a cat, really.

All cats are evil

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Stenis
Jun 29, 2019

by Nyc_Tattoo
I'm just glad the show exists - not for the gay stuff since a lot of shows have that, but She-Ra is the only show that takes the 80s rainbow aesthetic seriously. Everything else like Starbarians and Robot Unicorn Attack is at least somewhat ironic with it

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