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Booky posted:this thread about racism is pretty interesting, and i particularly liked this point about engrained racism: https://twitter.com/sapphicsirena/status/1298853140289093633 Thanks for pointing out that one 
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Aug 28, 2020 10:05
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Haifisch posted:
goddamn this so much. I had someone who claims to be autistic get extremely mad at me because of poo poo like this; I, shockingly, did not know some things I said hurt people or even why they hurt people (I still don't see how it could tbh but thats just how I think) and she go so offended over this and similar things in the past (including me using a nickname that I had idea nor any way to know it had bad memories attached to it) that she ultimately blocked me :/ Like I dont even know if I am autistic but holy hell does it feel like it sometimes.
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Aug 28, 2020 10:45
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Pththya-lyi posted:I think that Entrapta is similar to Catra, Hordak, etc. in that their bad actions are easily forgiven because 1) a broad section of the audience sees them as sympathetic; 2) their crimes are understood as Not That Bad because it's a kid's show that's trying to model how we should understand and treat people in our everyday lives, not convey the realities of war. It would be less awkward if the show wasn't about a war, but Noelle and Co were kind of constrained by the She-Ra source material and I think they did a pretty good job overall. It's the Star Wars problem on a smaller scale. Star Wars wants to appeal primarily to a young audience but it's still about literal space Nazis so redemption arcs feel exceptionally weird when you have 30 minutes of screen time to forgive a guy who murdered millions. And that leads to weird messaging out of context like "Who do you stan, loving storm troopers or the people trying to stop them?"
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Aug 28, 2020 12:46
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It's less weird in a series like Dragonball Z, which is explicitly stupid out the gate and you're not really expecting any rich emotional storytelling. In something like She-Ra, trying to play it smart and stupid at the same time creates some real dissonance.
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Aug 28, 2020 15:49
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I don't know that Hordak or Entrapta were particularly redeemed. Entrapta is still an amoral tech bro who will go wherever the science is. That doesn't change the fact that she still likes her old friends and will do things to help. Hordak stood up against bigger eviler Hordak, but that doesn't mean he's completely forgiven. I mean, a character looks at the two of them joyfully reuniting and say, so are we ok with that? I think the answer is not, yes of course. It's more, that is a complicated thing and getting into it during the denoument would seriously detract from the emotional and thematic coherence of the conclusion.
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Aug 28, 2020 16:02
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Wittgen posted:I don't know that Hordak or Entrapta were particularly redeemed. Entrapta is still an amoral tech bro who will go wherever the science is. That doesn't change the fact that she still likes her old friends and will do things to help. Hordak stood up against bigger eviler Hordak, but that doesn't mean he's completely forgiven. Honestly surprised Glimmer never once brought up that Catra is indirectly responsible for killing her mom but I also don't think Glimmer was made aware that was her doing.
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Aug 28, 2020 17:21
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Watermelon Daiquiri posted:Like I dont even know if I am autistic but holy hell does it feel like it sometimes. I recommend this free online book to anybody who is autistic, thinks they might be autistic, or wants to be an autistic ally. It's really accessible -- literally, they wrote it in plain language so intellectually disabled people can understand it -- and you might learn something about yourself or your friends and loved ones. I do want to expand on some thoughts I have about Entrapta and how her autism is portrayed on the show, since these thoughts have been percolating in my brain for a while now. Like Haifisch, I believe that the conflicts surrounding Entrapta come less from any flaws in Entrapta herself and more from problems in the way that other characters communicate with her. When Entrapta says "I’m not good at people," I actually think she's wrong. She easily wins the friendship of those who appreciate her strengths -- i.e. Bow and Hordak, who share her love of tech; and Scorpia, who always strives to see the good in everyone. I mean, could someone who's genuinely "bad at people" really outmaneuver manipulative power players like Catra and worm their way into a warlord like Hordak's confidence without even trying? No, it is only when others fail to appreciate or understand Entrapta that problems arise - when she becomes "bad at people." S5E2, "Launch," hinges on this issue. Instead of making the effort to understand what Entrapta is trying to do, the other characters spend much of the episode demeaning her for her "messed-up" love of tech, expecting her to do all the work of communicating on their level instead of reaching out to her, and generally treating her like more of a hindrance than a help. Take the scene where they first approach the spire (all bolding is mine): quote:Entrapta: The message from Horde Prime was transmitted through that spire. [On ‘that’, she points with her hair] Which means it’s got a wavelength, connecting it to his main base of operation, one that we can track. The other characters don't realize it, but Entrapta is "hoping to find [their] kidnapped friend" too. She's just told the rest of the group how she's going to do it, making a special effort to help them understand the plan when they show confusion. But instead of saying "Thank you Entrapta, for all your help," they take her skills for granted and belittle her for supposedly not caring about Glimmer. How do they know Entrapta doesn't care? They don't! They just assume she doesn't because she fails to perform a socially-appropriate amount of concern. The fact that Entrapta is single-mindedly focused on her role in the mission to save Glimmer -- to the point that she shows zero regard for her personal safety, to the point where she refuses to give up even when Mermista declares the mission a failure -- isn't a factor for them. Now, I don't mean to suggest that the other characters are bad people for focusing on their worry for Glimmer, or for resenting someone who designed robots that attacked their lands and tried to kill them. Some misunderstanding is inevitable when different neurotypes try to cross-communicate; nobody is a villain in this situation. But I have to ask, who is showing a lack of compassion in this scene? Who is being "not good at people?" Furthermore, I argue that when we call Entrapta "amoral," we fail to understand the ways in which she shows compassion and empathy. Is Entrapta being "amoral" when she treats robots like people - something that, if I recall correctly, no other character does? Does she recognize that Hordak is suffering, make him soup, and build him an assistive device because she is "amoral?" I think it's significant that, of all the characters in the show, Entrapta is the one to deliver this line to Horde Prime: My sister from another mister posted:You can't control us. You don't understand what makes us strong. And that's why you'll never win. "What makes us strong" is love. Horde Prime is the truly "amoral" character because he rejects love and compassion for the sake of power. He is the one who tries to destroy the "defective" and "imperfect" instead of appreciating their true value. Entrapta is someone who finds worth in imperfection. She understands, like all the other heroic characters, that love is greater than power. And it's only when the Rebellion members are able to recognize and use Entrapta's unique strengths -- to love her -- that they are able to break Horde Prime's mind control and turn the tide against him. In other words, it's only when we embrace neurodivergent people that love is able to win. Anyway, that's why Entrapta is Best Girl, don't @ me Pththya-lyi fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Aug 28, 2020 |
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Aug 28, 2020 21:59
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Always stan Entrapta <3
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Aug 28, 2020 22:16
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al-azad posted:It's the Star Wars problem on a smaller scale. Star Wars wants to appeal primarily to a young audience but it's still about literal space Nazis so redemption arcs feel exceptionally weird when you have 30 minutes of screen time to forgive a guy who murdered millions. And that leads to weird messaging out of context like "Who do you stan, loving storm troopers or the people trying to stop them?" I feel like its become a bigger problem nowadays, too. There are entire Stormtrooper cosplay groups for charity. Would that exist if Star Wars came out nowadays, when Nazis have become such a hot button issue?
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Aug 28, 2020 22:32
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Pththya-lyi posted:S5E2, "Launch," hinges on this issue. Instead of making the effort to understand what Entrapta is trying to do, the other characters spend much of the episode demeaning her for her "messed-up" love of tech, expecting her to do all the work of communicating on their level instead of reaching out to her, and generally treating her like more of a hindrance than a help. Take the scene where they first approach the spire (all bolding is mine): This bit also hits painfully close to home: quote:Mermista: We can’t. [knocks Entrapta’s signaler out of the way] Thanks to you, this place is about to be swarming with bots. We have to retreat. [groans] I should’ve known better than to trust you. You don’t care about Glimmer or any of us, you only care about tech! quote:Furthermore, I argue that when we call Entrapta "amoral," we fail to understand the ways in which she shows compassion and empathy. Is Entrapta being "amoral" when she treats robots like people - something that, if I recall correctly, no other character does? Does she recognize that Hordak is suffering, make him soup, and build him an assistive device because she is "amoral?" I think it's significant that, of all the characters in the show, Entrapta is the one to deliver this line to Horde Prime:
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Aug 28, 2020 22:59
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al-azad posted:It really is. A family friend (white) was jokingly describing me to his wife and he said something like "Yeah, he's some kind of government spook" and she was horrified and he got super embarrassed once he realized. After 35+ years on this planet, I have never heard that term used outside of describing a government agent and had to look it up. 
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Aug 28, 2020 23:28
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Haifisch posted:That exact episode gave me a lot of deja vu. In general neurotypical people expect autistic people to do 100% of the work of communicating like they're 'supposed' to(instead of both parties putting forth effort into understanding how the other communicates), and get mad if unspoken assumptions aren't met or if they don't realize(and don't just ask, because they assume their assumptions must be correct) what you're trying to do is working towards something they want. They also put a lot of stock into performative emotional expression and (often incorrectly) assume you don't feel something if you're not putting on a show of feeling it. I love Entrapta's portrayal because it touches on a lot of the little things like this that most media portrayals of autistic people miss. Thank you for summing some of my thoughts up so well. I've trying and failing to pull them together enough to say something like this for a while now.
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Aug 28, 2020 23:34
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Haifisch posted:That exact episode gave me a lot of deja vu. In general neurotypical people expect autistic people to do 100% of the work of communicating like they're 'supposed' to(instead of both parties putting forth effort into understanding how the other communicates), and get mad if unspoken assumptions aren't met or if they don't realize(and don't just ask, because they assume their assumptions must be correct) what you're trying to do is working towards something they want. They also put a lot of stock into performative emotional expression and (often incorrectly) assume you don't feel something if you're not putting on a show of feeling it. I love Entrapta's portrayal because it touches on a lot of the little things like this that most media portrayals of autistic people miss. Watermelon Daiquiri posted:Thank you for summing some of my thoughts up so well. I've trying and failing to pull them together enough to say something like this for a while now. This is why you gotta read the book, neurotypical folks! Autistic/ND people work really hard to show up for you, are you gonna show up for us?
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Aug 28, 2020 23:52
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The Bee posted:I feel like its become a bigger problem nowadays, too. There are entire Stormtrooper cosplay groups for charity. Would that exist if Star Wars came out nowadays, when Nazis have become such a hot button issue? I feel like the popular image of Stormtroopers is still bumbling oafs that can't aim, stuff like Clone Wars didn't really change it. Stormtroopers are just not scary at all and people don't really associate their image with fascism, despite them literally being, well, stormtroopers, for a fascist state.
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Aug 29, 2020 02:23
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It doesn't hurt that a lot of fanworks about stormtroopers are less Starship Troopers and more The Office, But Sci-fi.
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Aug 29, 2020 02:47
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Pththya-lyi posted:It doesn't hurt that a lot of fanworks about stormtroopers are less Starship Troopers and more The Office, But Sci-fi. This is almost the default canon now. Jedi Fallen Order has a ton of scripted conversations between the stormtrooper enemies that have them acting like that. There's one with one stormtrooper poo poo talking another for shooting a rocket too close and blowing out his eardrums and a lot of casual banter about not being able to aim properly.
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Aug 29, 2020 04:27
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pentyne posted:This is almost the default canon now. Jedi Fallen Order has a ton of scripted conversations between the stormtrooper enemies that have them acting like that. There's one with one stormtrooper poo poo talking another for shooting a rocket too close and blowing out his eardrums and a lot of casual banter about not being able to aim properly. It is straight up canon, as the final episode of Mandalorian had something straight out of that old-rear end TROOPS short.
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Aug 29, 2020 04:32
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Starting to reconsider the "fascism... for Kids!" idea here...
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Aug 29, 2020 06:42
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pentyne posted:This is almost the default canon now. Jedi Fallen Order has a ton of scripted conversations between the stormtrooper enemies that have them acting like that. There's one with one stormtrooper poo poo talking another for shooting a rocket too close and blowing out his eardrums and a lot of casual banter about not being able to aim properly. Yeah, I can't say I don't love bumbling stormtrooper jokes... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVLdqHHh3MA&t=225s But these past couple years has basically killed all humor.
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Aug 29, 2020 08:21
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I mean stormtroopers aren't nazis. They're cartoon villains with laser guns. If a dude's talking about how the empire was in the moral right in the movies that's weird, if he's just in the costume it's harmless. It's a fun recognizable design from a popular media thing. A guy in a stormtrooper costume doesn't embody a nazi anymore than a guy in a rebel uniform embodies french resistance fighters.
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Aug 29, 2020 17:29
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Endorph posted:I mean stormtroopers aren't nazis. They're cartoon villains with laser guns. If a dude's talking about how the empire was in the moral right in the movies that's weird, if he's just in the costume it's harmless. It's a fun recognizable design from a popular media thing. A guy in a stormtrooper costume doesn't embody a nazi anymore than a guy in a rebel uniform embodies french resistance fighters. The problem with the Empire-centric stuff is more and more these days you run into people who call the Rebels terrorists but without irony. It does get... very unsettling sometimes.
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Aug 29, 2020 17:36
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Dawgstar posted:The problem with the Empire-centric stuff is more and more these days you run into people who call the Rebels terrorists but without irony. It does get... very unsettling sometimes. yeah but most of the guys dressing up as stormtroopers for halloween or whatever dont fit into that type, is mostly my point
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Aug 29, 2020 18:24
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Dawgstar posted:The problem with the Empire-centric stuff is more and more these days you run into people who call the Rebels terrorists but without irony. It does get... very unsettling sometimes. The new Wolfenstein games managed to find a good balance between "Cartoon villains who can't shoot straight" and "aww poo poo this has real word parallels doesn't it?  "The problem is that those games are extremely hard M-rated. There's no risk of a 12 year old getting the feeling that America (Or any of the countries Star Wars gets imported to) might be just like the Galactic Empire without the intellectual capacity to know what to do with that information, so we get wacky cartoon parodies of facism instead of real world authoritarianism.
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Aug 29, 2020 18:29
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Haifisch posted:That exact episode gave me a lot of deja vu. In general neurotypical people expect autistic people to do 100% of the work of communicating like they're 'supposed' to(instead of both parties putting forth effort into understanding how the other communicates), and get mad if unspoken assumptions aren't met or if they don't realize(and don't just ask, because they assume their assumptions must be correct) what you're trying to do is working towards something they want. They also put a lot of stock into performative emotional expression and (often incorrectly) assume you don't feel something if you're not putting on a show of feeling it. I love Entrapta's portrayal because it touches on a lot of the little things like this that most media portrayals of autistic people miss. I'm not on the autism spectrum but I know people who are and I work with people who are. That part of that episode made me so sad and angry and it was written so well.
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Aug 31, 2020 05:13
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I didn't think I would post here but after reading (quickly in some spots) the whole thread and binging the 5 seasons on good chunks over 2.5 days, but I feel like I want to... I'm straight and male and you can put me in the group of people who didn't catch on Catra and Adora... I saw people explaining it with the sibling like stuff, their "mother" with Shadoweaver and I think that's what happened to me. I remember thinking they were attracted to one another with the prom ball episode (was that season 1?) when Adora catches her before she falls down the cliff... In retrospect, it seems like it got buried until season 5 between 2-5. I saw posters here almost losing their minds asking how we could miss they were a couple, etc... I don't really feel the need to make excuses why I didn't catch that but I just want to say something before you guys go "of course he didn't, he's a straight male who's secretly anti gay or something". Even though there's not really any LGBTQ+ (if I'm wrong with the term by missing letters or something to include more people, I'm sorry) communities in my small city and thus never had coworkers/friends that would be part of the people who fall under that term (or maybe I did but didn't know), I still appreciated all the themes in this show... I might not have caught everything (aside from the Catra/Adora stuff) as I'm not really familiar with this but I just wanted to say that it's very refreshing to see these kids shows representing all kind of people and not making any special deal out of it... You know where you almost see the showrunners with signs in the backround and winking about including a gay or trans character for example. I always liked animated stuff so even though I don't have children, I'll watch all the Disney/Pixar stuff and binge on shows on Netflix I would have never knew existed since I have no kids. She-ra is the one with the most representations of well, everything, by far from what I watched but I'm glad it's happening more and more. My question is about some of the comments when people like me didn't catch the Catra/Adora stuff. Even with the insight of the full 5 seasons, were they really a couple before the start of the show? Obviously, in hindsight for me, Catra always had feelings for Adora but in my own opinion, Adora didn't (or didn't know her feelings were more than their strong friendship before leaving the Horde) and developed/discovered them over the course of the years covered in the show, especially when she's finally back close to her in season 5... Even Catra says at some point in season 5 that Adora doesn't love (like?) her the way she does. I wanted to make sure because I usually don't miss this kind of important stuff so without spotting the real feelings during the show, I'm wondering if I also missed that? In my case, with what I said in this post, I think it's not about the gay stuff not registering as strong because of my background and thus not noticing... I think it's one of those things where you learn something "wrong" and you don't challenge yourself after that until someone corrects you or you see someone saying something and you go "oooohhh". They were presented like sisters, especially when super young in flashbacks and that's what I always assumed and only season 5 changed my mind as I watched more episodes. I think it's what happened to most watchers who missed it. I would be surprised of other mean reasons because who could watch this show if they were anti LGBTQ+ or whatever you can be that blocks in your mind even the idea of 2 characters being a couple (like the Korra watchers would say that there is NO WAY Korra and Asami at the end hinted at a thing). Sorry this is so long. As a few general notes on this show I wanted to say that it's enjoyable for adults even without children, I liked the humor, most characters were interesting, I was so pumped when She-Ra V2 happened. Very good voice actors for the characters too, they did a great job. Catra's nickname "kitten" by Double Trouble is the best and especially how it was always delivered... as was their impersonation of Adora with the humongous hair poof. The main character being the meathead and not one of the sidekicks (and she's also a woman!), the more normal female body shapes that you never see in cartoons. Also, Catra's god drat kitty ears space helmet thing that made me have Bow's reaction before he did it in the episode. "Hey Adora" of course. I know it's kids stuff mainly but I feel like the art/animation could have been better but it didn't pull me out of the show beside that racoon eye shadow thing they did that was always distracting. I grew up with Musclor (sorry, He-Man for you English speakers) and when googling some stuff after watching this show, is it me or the character designs are even gayer than the whole She-ra show who receives memes with the "Gay, more gay and ALL the gay" gif?
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Sep 4, 2020 01:59
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Catra and Adora definitely weren't together before the show started. Like you said, Catra was clearly always in love with her, but Adora seems to have been very oblivious to it. It's not that Adora didn't love her, just that Adora is kind of dim and wasn't focused on romantic relationships pre-series.
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Sep 4, 2020 02:02
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From the start, Catra's feeling for Adora were *extremely* clear. Adora's obliviousness was also extremely clear. That's part of the dramatic irony. Catra keeps saying, "I love you and feel rejected!" and Adore keeps saying, "But the Horde is evil!" They keep talking past each other and it's a fun tension that drives the show. I don't understand how one could watch the show and enjoy it without that component. The communist horse pulls a lot of weight but he's not in it often enough to really count. Otherwise it's just a well done children's show and I don't see threads for Pororo or Daniel Tiger on SA though both are excellent in their own way for children.
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Sep 4, 2020 03:39
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IIRC they didn't know if they'd be allowed to go all the way with Catradora or have to censor themselves like Sailor Moon's cousins until fairly late in production, which could account for some of the confusion for people who aren't used to having to hunt for coding.
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Sep 4, 2020 08:08
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I bring more gay!
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Sep 4, 2020 08:48
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 marcline is not the protagonist
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Sep 4, 2020 09:39
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And Catra isn't what I'd call smart 
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Sep 4, 2020 11:50
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Also, Luz may be super oblivious when it comes to Amity, but she's not stupid in general. 
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Sep 4, 2020 12:15
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And I wouldn't call Korra stupid either, especially after all her character growth.
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Sep 4, 2020 15:10
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No Korra was pretty dumb even in the last season. Kuvira totally walked over her and it took a lot of smarter people to get her to actually figure out what to do. And obviously she got totally outsmarted by Amon and Unaloq and even Zaheer. In fact Korra being actually flat out stupid was one of her main character flaws. Alongside just general incompetence.
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Sep 4, 2020 15:19
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Korra's first response to any problem is to punch it, and she never outgrows that. I don't know if that's the same thing as stupid, but, yeah. It's often the wrong response.
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Sep 4, 2020 15:32
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Yeah, Korra is definitely a big ol' meathead like Adora in terms of her general approach to things, but (and honestly this applies to Adora too) going from that to "she's dumb" feels... kind of reductive and meanspirited? I dunno. E: To be clear, this isn't necessarily a criticism of the fanart specifically, they're both extremely on brand there. Cattail Prophet fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 16:35
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It's an attempt to point out certain similarities between these couples, but the price of making these generalizations is losing a lot of nuance.
paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 16:46
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Yeah also Adora and Korra would absolutely wrestle with pots on their head.
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Sep 4, 2020 18:53
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Senerio posted:Yeah also Adora and Korra would absolutely wrestle with pots on their head. And it would 100% be Marceline's idea.
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Sep 4, 2020 19:16
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Cattail Prophet posted:Yeah, Korra is definitely a big ol' meathead like Adora in terms of her general approach to things, but (and honestly this applies to Adora too) going from that to "she's dumb" feels... kind of reductive and meanspirited? I dunno. It's not intended to be meanspirited, just frustrated at how badly I feel she was written. I feel like they wanted her to have flaws that would make her relatable but instead she just fucks up at every point and has to pull off an asspull win at the end of every season. She gets easily outmaneuvered, captured and tricked in every season. Shes captured 4 times in season 3 alone! At one point she says she's the worst Avatar ever and boy does it feel like the writers wanted you to believe her. I'm not saying she's dumb because I hate the character, but because she is written to make dumb decisions and mistakes 90% of the time. If anything I feel like the writers kind of hated her for how much poo poo the narrative gives her. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 20:38
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