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Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

Larryb posted:

So how much did the Horde change personality wise in the remake (or in Catraís case, was any of her original personality actually retained)?

OG Catra was just kind of... vampy, I guess. Not dissimilar to Adam West Batman's Catwoman. Lots of "Purrrrrfects" and such.

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Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

Dawgstar posted:

OG Catra was just kind of... vampy, I guess. Not dissimilar to Adam West Batman's Catwoman. Lots of "Purrrrrfects" and such.

I think the closest the SPoP version came to that was the few moments where she acts like a real cat.

I assume her having a connection to/infatuation with Adora was also an invention of the remake (which I assume was added to make up for the fact that they couldnít use the ďHe-Manís sisterĒ plotline for the original)?

I assume the other Horde members were altered as well since I recall most of them just being generic villains with a quirk or two in the original series.

Larryb fucked around with this message at 14:57 on May 14, 2021

maltesh
May 20, 2004

Uncle Ben: Still Dead.
ICarta was planned as the original primary antagonist of the She-Ra toyline back in the 80s, but the toy company had all these leftover third-wave He-Man figures in the pipeline after the He-Man show ended, so they wound up taking that away from her and giving it to Hordak.

Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



Glimmer's scenario in the dnd episode was very close.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008

Larryb posted:

So how much did the Horde change personality wise in the remake (or in Catraís case, was any of her original personality actually retained)?

I know the original Double Trouble only appeared as a toy (and I think also some childrenís book they put out) at the very least.

Also were there any Horde members from the original that didnít make it into SPoP?

The Horde are wildly different. They're at once less evil and less comical - in 80s toy commercial cartoon style, the original Horde are a collection of slurping, vamping goons who are constantly tripping over their own feet. A lot of the most frequently appearing Horde baddies are either one-off cameos in SPoP or don't appear at all. Catra, Scorpia and to a lesser extent Entrapta (who isn't a regular but just appears in one or two episodes of the original show) are the only Horde minions who made the cut into being actual characters in the reboot, and their personalities are completely different.

Original Catra is voiced by the same VA as original She-Ra, who is obviously straining to find a unique voice for yet another of the half-dozen characters she voices on the show, so everything she says is punctuated by elongated purrs and miaows. Original Scorpia is a doofus with a comically bad Brooklyn accent. Hordak himself has not a hint of pathos and is just a jerk, but a kind of pathetic jerk who is terrified of getting his colonial governor position stripped by Horde Prime. Also his technological affinity manifests as him physically transforming into rockets and drills and laser guns, it's very silly.

The most frequently appearing Horde minions in the original are probably Mantenna (a comic relief remora man with pop-out eyes whose main beat is that Hordak drops him through increasingly unlikely hidden trapdoors after he reports yet another failure to defeat the rebels) and Leech (a slurpy rhino-looking monster with suction cup hands who energy drains people), and neither of them get so much as a cameo in the reboot.

One character who does stay almost entirely the same from original to reboot is Shadow Weaver. She's one of the few villains in the original show who has genuinely threatening vibes and who is treated by Hordak as a peer instead of a lackey. She also has an actually good VA, which is a rarity for the Horde characters. The SPoP showrunners probably saw that Shadow Weaver was one of the characters who needed the least alteration to be an interesting villain, she's actually unironically pretty cool in the midst of an extremely cheesy show.

There's also a lot of comically 80s American political subtext in the original show's treatment of the Horde, because often the inciting incident for an episode will be Mantenna and Leech stumping up to a fantasy village and asking them to pay their taxes, and the rebels being like "we have to stop the Evil Horde's punitive tax plan from draining the wallets of these innocent farmers!".

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

Was OG Entrapta still the Hordeís tech girl at least? Iím guessing she wasnít quite as close to Hordak at least.

Come to think of it, I believe every villain in SPoP wound up getting some kind of redemption arc except Horde Prime and I think Double Trouble (including Hordak himself)

Larryb fucked around with this message at 16:08 on May 14, 2021

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008

Larryb posted:

Was OG Entrapa still the Hordeís tech girl at least? Iím guessing she wasnít quite as close to Hordak at least.

Come to think of it, I believe every villain in SPoP wound up getting some kind of redemption arc except Horde Prime and I think Double Trouble (including Hordak himself)

Sort of - Entrapta only has a speaking role in two episodes of the original show, and from memory she's put across as a tech expert who teams up with Catra to build dastardly deathtraps for the rebels. Her metier is, like Catra, very 60s Batman villain, lots of hammy gloating. Catra and Scorpia are series mainstays and show up far more frequently.

The Horde's main tech expert was a guy called Modulok whose gimmick was that he had interchangeable limbs, a clear action figure gimme, but in the show he just appears sitting at a computer every now and then to explain why the Horde have a zeppelin or a space laser now.

Madurai
Jun 26, 2012

The real tragedy was that we never got a new version of Mantenna.

VanSandman
Feb 16, 2011
SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER
Double Trouble wasn't a villain, they were a mercenary.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

VanSandman posted:

Double Trouble wasn't a villain, they were a mercenary.

Ah ok. Out of curiosity, why didnít they ever make it into the original show? I know they got a toy and appeared once in a kids book at least.

For that matter, were there any characters that were invented exclusively for SPoP or were they all in the original in some capacity?

Twibbit
Mar 7, 2013

Is your refrigerator running?
Wrong Hordak

KennyMan666
May 27, 2010

The Saga

Larryb posted:

For that matter, were there any characters that were invented exclusively for SPoP or were they all in the original in some capacity?
Kyle and Rogelio are probably the most prominent original SPoP characters. There was a Lonnie in the original, though she was a one-off in that. Also Bow's dads (or any family at all) didn't exist in the original, but do have a nod to it in that George is basically a dark-skinned and dark-haired version of original Bow.

Fairly sure Entrapta's kitchen staff didn't exist in the original either.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

Was the little old woman Adora met in the first episode (I forget her name but she kept calling Adora by her predecessors name) in the original as well?

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

Larryb posted:

Was the little old woman Adora met in the first episode (I forget her name but she kept calling Adora by her predecessors name) in the original as well?

Madame Razz? Yes, she was more stereotypical daffy witch type.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

The_Doctor posted:

Madame Razz? Yes, she was more stereotypical daffy witch type.



She was kind of She Ra's Orko, although I think somewhat more effective.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008

Madame Razz's character design is one of the few cases where the original is actually a bit more charming. The eyeholes cut into the brim of her hat thing is great.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

Android Blues posted:

Madame Razz's character design is one of the few cases where the original is actually a bit more charming. The eyeholes cut into the brim of her hat thing is great.

Iíd have to agree with you there. I forget, did Razz have a (I presume) talking broom in the remake as well?

Sort of related, was there a previous She-Ra named Mara referenced in the original show as well or was she another invention of the reboot?

KennyMan666
May 27, 2010

The Saga

Larryb posted:

Iíd have to agree with you there. I forget, did Razz have a (I presume) talking broom in the remake as well?

Sort of related, was there a previous She-Ra named Mara referenced in the original show as well or was she another invention of the reboot?
SPoP Razz talked to her broom, but it was never shown to be anything but a normal broom. There was a Mara in the 1990 He-Man cartoon, but she wasn't a previous She-Ra or anything like that, just part of the cast and a potential love interest for He-Man.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

So is the Netflix She-Ra series the only one in the franchise with a definitive ending? Also, do the older shows still hold up at all today (I saw a bit of the 80ís He-Man as a kid and didnít really care much for it)?


Off the subject, thanks to some toy pictures we have our first look at He-Man and Skeletor from the reboot series (the one thatís coming out alongside Revelations):




Larryb fucked around with this message at 19:37 on May 16, 2021

Technowolf
Nov 4, 2009




God that He-man looks like a giant dork.

And not in the good way.

Soonmot
Dec 19, 2002

Entrapta fucking loves robots




Grimey Drawer
i do not like that type of cgi animation

PoptartsNinja
May 9, 2008

He is still almost definitely not a spy


Soiled Meat

Larryb posted:

So is the Netflix She-Ra series the only one in the franchise with a definitive ending?

The original series were episodic toy commercials, He Man just sorta... existed; but She Ra had an actual beginning so it was closer to having a serialized story.

The 2000s era reboot had a pretty reasonable ending every season but no real series ending. That one was pretty ok, if nothing spectacular. Hordak had a couple of brief appearances that make him out to be like the Sauron to Skeletor's Saruman.

Dawgstar
Jul 15, 2017

Larryb posted:

So is the Netflix She-Ra series the only one in the franchise with a definitive ending? Also, do the older shows still hold up at all today (I saw a bit of the 80ís He-Man as a kid and didnít really care much for it)?

The original He-Man and She-Ra series both are extremely formulaic and are mostly to sell toys. You might have some fun with the camp charm or playing a drinking game counting how many animation frames are reused but they're not honestly "good." The 2002 series is kind of like the (first) Thundercats reboot or GI Joe Renegades or Transformers Prime, people who grew up on the original trying to turn it into something more than the original source material had and it's not bad, but was cancelled before it could really pay off (the third season was going to have Hordak and - I think - She-Ra).

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

PoptartsNinja posted:

The original series were episodic toy commercials, He Man just sorta... existed; but She Ra had an actual beginning so it was closer to having a serialized story.

The 2000s era reboot had a pretty reasonable ending every season but no real series ending. That one was pretty ok, if nothing spectacular. Hordak had a couple of brief appearances that make him out to be like the Sauron to Skeletor's Saruman.

I think I heard somewhere the 90ís He-Man series had something that could be described as an ending but Iím not sure how good it was as an actual series.

And yeah, so far the reboot isnít really grabbing me in terms of visuals but maybe itíll turn out ok regardless (Revelations looks really good but Iím not sure how accessible itís going to be to new viewers)

Out of curiosity, why was the 2002 series cancelled?

tsob
Sep 26, 2006

Chalalala~

maltesh posted:

Honestly, I'd prefer they let this She-Ra show be its own story.

If the Kevin Smith MotU show runners want to do their own take on the She-Ra mythos I suppose it's up to Hasbro.

There may not be a crossover anyway. When Revelations was announced a year or more back Kevin Smith had three of the show's writers appear for an interview on his YouTube show, alongside his usual co-host Mark Bernardin, who is also one of the show's writers and addressed a few things. Including She-Ra, which he said at the time there were no plans to crossover with. I actually clipped it at the time for this thread, and it's still live just having found it again:

https://webm.red/3Tzx

It's less than 2 minutes long, and basically amounts to him saying that no-one was talking about a crossver at the time (which was going into season 3 of She-Ra), and that it probably wouldn't happen at all until at least both their shows had finished their intended plot. It may not ever happen though, given the way he worded it. Somewhat coincidentally, Smith had two of the same writers appear for about 10 minutes again at the start of this weeks episode of the show since the first images had just released, and while he didn't address anything about a crossover, he did talk briefly about She-Ra. Which was because he had noticed a trend of making GBS threads on She-Ra in order to praise the images, and thought that was kind of silly because the two are completely different shows with different remits. It sounds like he's a fan of She-Ra, and really enjoyed the new take on the characters from what little he said about it. Mostly though he noted that when he was asked to do Revelations that he was told to make the show that the guys in charge had thought they were watching when they were kids i.e. the old show but with actual stakes and plot, not just enough of an illusion to keep kids watching and buying toys. While Noelle Stevenson was told to make a new show that appealed to a new audience.

Edit: A direct link, if anyone cares.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LKdTu9p2jI&t=1762s

It starts at 29:20 (which should be the starting time on that link), and lasts about 4 minutes to end at about 34 minutes in.

tsob fucked around with this message at 23:01 on May 16, 2021

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

Which makes me wonder what the upcoming reboot will be like (though Iím not a big fan of the visual style if the toy art is any indication). That is, whether theyíll stick closer to the old show or try to inject some originality like Netflix She-Ra did (personally Iím hoping for the latter)

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010

Larryb posted:

So is the Netflix She-Ra series the only one in the franchise with a definitive ending? Also, do the older shows still hold up at all today (I saw a bit of the 80ís He-Man as a kid and didnít really care much for it)?


Off the subject, thanks to some toy pictures we have our first look at He-Man and Skeletor from the reboot series (the one thatís coming out alongside Revelations):



Goddamn, that looks like a bad Fortnite character :psyduck:. Come to think of it, that's probably intentional, too. I can easily picture some executive demanding they go chase after that demographic.

experienceBeej
Mar 24, 2014

Larryb posted:

Off the subject, thanks to some toy pictures we have our first look at He-Man and Skeletor from the reboot series (the one thatís coming out alongside Revelations):




Nice to see Kristoff from Frozen getting more work. Had a bit of a Dreamworks jaw-lift done too.

Kalko
Oct 9, 2004

Started watching this because of the Let's Watch thread here, and I'm glad I did because I enjoyed it immensely. Not sure what the spoiler tags policy is here now that it's been a year since it ended but I'll copy my big block of spoiler from the other thread anyway because it was requested and because this thread is more appropriate for it.

---

Thoughts on the whole series... first I'll just say I'm glad I didn't do any kind of internet search before watching it because right up until the last few episodes I did not see that coming! I thought the show was angling for platonic love, but in hindsight it makes perfect sense and having glanced at the other thread here it seems like there are a few hints in the first season which I completely missed, so I'm looking forward to a re-watch but not for a while because I'm still processing it. That was honestly one of the best emotional payoffs I've ever experienced and I felt every bit of that moment - I'm a sucker for sincerity and this show has it in spades. The Adora/Catra relationship is a masterful work of characterization and storytelling and I'd put it right up there with Into the Spiderverse in terms of how powerfully it affected me.

So yeah, Catra is still my favourite character. "I always have" was as much an admission to herself as to Adora, and it recalled that moment in an earlier episode where she was wandering the corridors of Prime's ship and tried to make sense of that memory of them as children when she struck Lonnie. I liked how it also mirrored her wandering the corridors of the Horde base and recalling other memories of Adora, and I'd have to go back and check but I think those moments usually happened after she'd lashed out at Scorpia or her former squadmates; when she felt most alone in the world her thoughts inevitably returned to Adora and her feelings of friendship, love and abandonment.

Both of them were raised in an abusive environment, but Catra was treated more harshly and was constantly diminished by Shadow Weaver, and she was less emotionally resilient than Adora to begin with; her sensitivity shines through in those rare moments where she lets her guard down : pleading with Shadow Weaver to know why she was always second best, or her heartfelt outburst, revealing the depths of her pain, right before activating the portal. Her rise through the ranks to replace Shadow Weaver as Hordak's second in command was as much due to pure survival instinct as it was to calculation, as revealed in those private moments where she is clearly still cowed and/or fearful of him.

Her bravado was often employed as another self-defense measure; she internalized all the lessons she learned growing up in the Horde so well that she was deathly afraid of showing any kind of vulnerability or weakness. So much so that even Bow's affectionate teasing of her for being cute incurred an outsized reaction and forceful denial. I think Perfuma's simple observation is one of the best lines in the show and could perhaps be considered its central thesis : "Having friends makes you vulnerable, but it doesn't make you weak."

I really appreciated the moment right before the end when Shadow Weaver finally spoke the words she wanted to hear, and how her imminent sacrifice caused them both so much distress because despite her treatment of them, Shadow Weaver was the closest thing either of them had to a parent.

And speaking of words she desperately wanted to hear, "What do you want, Adora?" For her part, Adora's side of the relationship only made sense to me in that final moment when I realized she had been denying her inner feelings the whole time in a grand act of selflessness; that burden of responsibility (not to mention her struggle with the idea of destiny) wouldn't allow her to put herself before everyone else, but when she dreamed Mara asking the same question it was like she was finally giving herself permission to answer it. But as Prime so gleefully explained, it was only a wish. Only a wish, that is, until Catra's admission, at the last possible moment, made it real.

The build-up to that moment, with Shadow Weaver's sacrifice, Adora's realization that she would die and Catra's refusal to leave, choosing to share her fate... it was intense, I was fully invested, and that moment of release was breathtaking.


Since it's kind of lame to end a post with a giant spoiler block I will instead end by saying that what I appreciated most about this show is its sincerity. I think it was around half-way through the first season (the Prom episode) where it really hit its stride and I felt the same way I did five minutes into the Spiderverse movie when I couldn't wipe the grin off my face : there's something special here, and I'm in for a treat.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

Personally I love SPoP and unlike most of what came before it had a lot more depth than just being a goofy toy commercial (not that the series was completely devoid of comedy of course) and in my opinion nearly every character is honestly superior to their 80ís counterpart (though Razz had a much better design in the old show in my opinion).

The creators were under a lot of restrictions (such as not being able to use much if any of the He-Man side of things) but personally I think it worked and doesnít deserve nearly as much hate as it seems to get from the fanbase (in fact, if this was an original series with some names/aspects changed that had no connection to an established franchise I think a lot of people would have been much kinder to it overall).

As Iíve said before, Iíd actually like to see a He-Man show done in a similar style to this with more complex characters but hopefully at least one of the upcoming Netflix shows will be decent at least.

Off the subject, has Dreamworks done any other animated shows that are worth checking out?

Kalko
Oct 9, 2004

Yeah, not sure what to expect from the Kevin Smith one. I can't see it going for the same humour/pathos blend as in SPoP or Spiderverse, but I hope it's at least a little campy. It should have some good visuals; I binged Castlevania recently too and it had some pretty great end-of-season fights, although it seemed like they saved most of their budget for that so the non-fight stuff was a bit sparse (also Sypha has the best mage-fighting style I've ever seen, animated or otherwise).

I'm surprised to hear there was a negative reaction to SPoP from the She-Ra fanbase (also kind of surprised there even existed a fanbase for the original show from what little I remember of it). But I'm also not really surprised because it seems like every fandom based on nostalgia is powered by hatred.

Otherkinsey Scale
Jul 17, 2012

Just a little bit of sunshine!

Larryb posted:

Off the subject, has Dreamworks done any other animated shows that are worth checking out?

Take a look at Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts. The show's heart and sincerity match She-Ra's, and Glimmer's VA really shines in the lead role. It also boasts some gorgeous animation and excellent music selection. Plus, (very minor spoiler) out of this whole wave of queer-friendly kids media - Steven Universe, She-Ra, Owl House etc. - this is the only one I've seen that actually has someone outright say "I'm gay".

Otherkinsey Scale fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jun 8, 2021

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."

Otherkinsey Scale posted:

Take a look at Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts. The show's heart and sincerity match She-Ra's, and Glimmer's VA really shines in the lead role. It also boasts some gorgeous animation and excellent music selection. Plus, (very minor spoiler) out of this whole wave of queer-friendly kids media - Steven Universe, She-Ra, Owl House etc. - this is the only one I've seen that actually has someone outright say "I'm gay".

Plus itís the super rare example of mlm love, rather than the more public friendly wlw.

Larryb
Oct 5, 2010

Kalko posted:

Yeah, not sure what to expect from the Kevin Smith one. I can't see it going for the same humour/pathos blend as in SPoP or Spiderverse, but I hope it's at least a little campy. It should have some good visuals; I binged Castlevania recently too and it had some pretty great end-of-season fights, although it seemed like they saved most of their budget for that so the non-fight stuff was a bit sparse (also Sypha has the best mage-fighting style I've ever seen, animated or otherwise).

I'm surprised to hear there was a negative reaction to SPoP from the She-Ra fanbase (also kind of surprised there even existed a fanbase for the original show from what little I remember of it). But I'm also not really surprised because it seems like every fandom based on nostalgia is powered by hatred.

Yeah, from what Iíve found it seems the stock answer for why they donít like the show is ďthey changed too muchĒ as well as some calling it an ďabominationĒ or ďShe-Ra in name onlyĒ. A lot of them also get really pissy when you try to challenge them on this.

In my opinion though SPoP is the first show in the franchise Iíve generally liked. I HATED the original He-Man as a kid personally though from what Iíve heard the short lived remake was a little better. Itís fine if you donít like a show but some of the He-Man community seems almost fanatical about their cheesy toy commercial from the 80ís and would rather nothing change at all.

Plus, the Netflix show does have some fun references to its predecessor here and there (like the episode where everyone was essentially sitting around playing D&D).

I forget though, was Adora still a lost princess in SPoP or did they not go too deep into her backstory other than Shadow Weaver finding her as a baby and raising her as a member of the Horde?

Also considering how Revelations is apparently a direct sequel to the original He-Man Iím kind of curious how they plan on making it accessible to new viewers. But it does have Mark Hamill as Skeletor so I expect it to still be a little cheesy at least.

Larryb fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jun 8, 2021

Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



Adora was a first one, so it's implied she was at the very least still from Eternia.

KennyMan666
May 27, 2010

The Saga

I'm currently watching Kipo myself, two episodes into the final season at the moment. I like it, even if not as much as She-Ra (which is currently my second favourite western cartoon after Adventure Time) or The Owl House. And I can't stop hearing Kipo as Glimmer since Karen Fukuhara uses practically the exact same voice for both of them. But I haven't seen any other stuff she's in, so I don't know if that's just The Voice she uses for all of her roles.

Kalko posted:

Thoughts on the whole series...
Absolutely agreed on the emotional payoff at the end. Even if I would have liked for the relationship to become official earlier if only because I wanted more on-screen time with them together in that capacity (so now I'm hoping for some kind of epilogue series or movie), it did make for a very strong finale. Been about four months since I finished it and I'm still not entirely over how good it was.

Catra's my second favourite character for much of the same reasons you mention, while for me nobody can dethrone Entrapta from being Best Character I do think Catra has the best character arc in the show.

Also agreed on Princess Prom being where it really gets going. Even if System Failure is one of my favourite episodes, everything prior to Princess Prom was really just introducing the cast and worldbuilding. Not that that's not important too.

Madurai
Jun 26, 2012

Larryb posted:

Yeah, from what Iíve found it seems the stock answer for why they donít like the show is ďthey changed too muchĒ as well as some calling it an ďabominationĒ or ďShe-Ra in name onlyĒ. A lot of them also get really pissy when you try to challenge them on this.

I can't help but notice that the people upset about SPoP tend to be overwhelmingly male.

ConfusedUs
Feb 24, 2004

Bees?
You want fucking bees?
Here you go!
ROLL INITIATIVE!!





Larryb posted:

Yeah, from what Iíve found it seems the stock answer for why they donít like the show is ďthey changed too muchĒ as well as some calling it an ďabominationĒ or ďShe-Ra in name onlyĒ. A lot of them also get really pissy when you try to challenge them on this.

"It changed too much" is just a code phrase for bigotry, more often than not. What they're really saying is "This show is too gay."

Bigots love to hide behind flimsy excuses when they're too cowardly to outright say why they really don't like it.

There are some for whom the show doesn't live up to whatever impossible-to-meet and vaguely-defined expectations they had, but most of them? It's just that they hate how gay the show is.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008

I love the original show for how cheesy and ridiculous it is, but the idea of resenting SPoP because it changed too much is insane to me. The original show wasn't a holy document, it was an extremely chintzy advertisement for playsets and dolls. It's an enjoyable watch because it's like a Lisa Frank explosion, there are pretty painted backgrounds, the voices are hilarious and everyone does the same front flip animation cycle twice an episode, but it isn't good by any traditional metric.

Like, any She-Ra reboot had to inject far more depth and characterisation because the original show had very little of that to speak of. There are definitely things I prefer about the original show, but for entirely different reasons. It's like comparing apples and Pepsi.

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Hobbes
Sep 12, 2000
Forum Veteran
Dinosaur Gum
It seemed like a thing at the time, but was there really much backlash or was it a just a clickbaity thing to get all the gamergate dorks riled till the next female lead movie came out?

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