Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


When this season causes multiple pages of debate on the nature of witches, sins and morality - you know it kicks rear end. :allears:

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

AnoHito
May 8, 2014



I don't get it, why does everyone think Typhon is evil? She didn't actually hurt Barusu at all. So far, the most "evil" witch is Daphne, and even she wasn't completely terrible.

I would also like to point out that, so far in the story, Satella hasn't actually done anything other than make Barusu functionally immortal. Most everything else about her has been second/third hand stories from people that already hate her and everything she stands for.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


AnoHito posted:

I would also like to point out that, so far in the story, Satella hasn't actually done anything other than make Barusu functionally immortal.

Killed Emilia that one time.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


AnoHito posted:

I would also like to point out that, so far in the story, Satella hasn't actually done anything other than make Barusu functionally immortal. Most everything else about her has been second/third hand stories from people that already hate her and everything she stands for.

Well she also kills him or who he's talking to whenever he tries to explain that he's immortal.

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

AnoHito posted:

I don't get it, why does everyone think Typhon is evil? She didn't actually hurt Barusu at all. So far, the most "evil" witch is Daphne, and even she wasn't completely terrible.

I would also like to point out that, so far in the story, Satella hasn't actually done anything other than make Barusu functionally immortal. Most everything else about her has been second/third hand stories from people that already hate her and everything she stands for.

Pretty sure we are seeing her being active in the last episode.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

I kinda think like "Satella" right now isn't probably "herself" but is more like an insane shadow of her former self.

egg tats
Apr 3, 2010


AnoHito posted:

I don't get it, why does everyone think Typhon is evil? She didn't actually hurt Barusu at all. So far, the most "evil" witch is Daphne, and even she wasn't completely terrible.

I would also like to point out that, so far in the story, Satella hasn't actually done anything other than make Barusu functionally immortal. Most everything else about her has been second/third hand stories from people that already hate her and everything she stands for.

like, the thing she did was hosed up, and like, cool Subaru wasn't hurt because he had never actually done anything wrong but you still tore off his gat dang arm (and then his gat dang everything). Subaru didn't just go back to normal when she left either, so unless Minerva was following behind her putting people with anxiety back together she was likely walking around doing a lot of killing-by-proxy

like, typhon might have been that cavalier because she knew Minerva was next in line, but you don't really get that idea from how she acted, you know

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


AnoHito posted:

I don't get it, why does everyone think Typhon is evil? She didn't actually hurt Barusu at all. So far, the most "evil" witch is Daphne, and even she wasn't completely terrible.

I would also like to point out that, so far in the story, Satella hasn't actually done anything other than make Barusu functionally immortal. Most everything else about her has been second/third hand stories from people that already hate her and everything she stands for.

Subaru was broken into pieces. Echidna stated that the concept of death does not exist in the tea party space, so presumably had he been in the real world, he would have died when he shattered in a gory mess.
Even if that is not the case, he could not put himself back together, Minerva had to come and restore him.
Presumably when she was a alive she went around shattering people if they felt any guilt about their actions. While incredibly alien and not malicious, I can't really call that anything but evil.

Satella apparently destroyed half the world before being sealed. So that sounds pretty bad. And we just saw her in the most recent episode covering the land in shadows, that are presumably fatal if you get sucked in. Also there was the whole crushing Emilia's heart thing.

Mindblast
Jun 28, 2006

Moving at the speed of death.




AnoHito posted:

I don't get it, why does everyone think Typhon is evil? She didn't actually hurt Barusu at all. So far, the most "evil" witch is Daphne, and even she wasn't completely terrible.

I would also like to point out that, so far in the story, Satella hasn't actually done anything other than make Barusu functionally immortal. Most everything else about her has been second/third hand stories from people that already hate her and everything she stands for.

Satella literally strong armed Subaru into a situation where he'd constantly be in harm's way, and wired her "gift" to kill anyone who learned about it.

Typhon seems quick to judge without a care. Also the show literally showcases that emotional damage is a thing and he is clearly distressed at getting shattered and she didn't even blink at it. That's worrying, bare mininum.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

My take away was that Typhon was shoved out of the space by Minerva who intervene on Echidna's behalf to heal Subaru.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Mindblast posted:

Satella literally strong armed Subaru into a situation where he'd constantly be in harm's way, and wired her "gift" to kill anyone who learned about it.

Subaru is only in any particular danger because he insists on sticking with Emilia, who is constantly in mortal danger at all times. If he just walked away he could easily live in peace. He always has a choice.

AnoHito
May 8, 2014



Clarste posted:

Subaru is only in any particular danger because he insists on sticking with Emilia, who is constantly in mortal danger at all times. If he just walked away he could easily live in peace. He always has a choice.

Yeah, she's given him immortality with a couple of frankly not very limiting rules (no telling anyone and you still have to eat the pain of death). The fact that he keeps dying to the point of driving himself insane and also decided to go hunting for bullshit loopholes is entirely on him.


MonsterEnvy posted:

Subaru was broken into pieces. Echidna stated that the concept of death does not exist in the tea party space, so presumably had he been in the real world, he would have died when he shattered in a gory mess.
Even if that is not the case, he could not put himself back together, Minerva had to come and restore him.
Presumably when she was a alive she went around shattering people if they felt any guilt about their actions. While incredibly alien and not malicious, I can't really call that anything but evil.

I assume she knew he'd get better. The witches seem to understand the nature of where they are.

quote:

Satella apparently destroyed half the world before being sealed. So that sounds pretty bad. And we just saw her in the most recent episode covering the land in shadows, that are presumably fatal if you get sucked in.

The main source of that story seems to be "The people that sealed her away," though. And I hardly call that unbiased. "Yeah she was totally gonna destroy the whole planet, so we put her down because we're so awesome. now kneel before us." seems like a plausible origin for the kingdom.

I'm also going to reserve judgement on her current rampage at the very least until she does something other than spew some smoke that may or may not even do anything and say "I love you" a few times.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


:pusheen:

Mindblast
Jun 28, 2006

Moving at the speed of death.




Clarste posted:

If he just walked away he could easily live in peace.

Everything suggests the entire world is filled with things he can't handle. He's also stands out to anyone who can pick up on aura's. Nothing suggests he'd be safe.

And again: "don't tell or I kill the witnesses" is pretty drat terrible.

VVVV :hmmyes:

Mindblast fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Sep 7, 2020

8one6
May 20, 2012

When in doubt, err on the side of Awesome!



Look, the monsters that have been eating people unchecked for 400 years and killing half the world and the cult and shattering people is just all a big misunderstanding and we should reserve judgement until we see these alleged "witches" do something obviously evil.

darkgray
Dec 20, 2005

My best pose facing the morning sun!


One of the web novel's interlude chapters has a paragraph on why people might consider Minerva harmful, if anyone's curious:

Every time she heals someone, she draws enormous power from a global mana source, and the resulting deficit indirectly affects other parts of the world in the form of natural disasters and whatnot, so she basically kills as many people as she saves. Hence "evil".

Dunno if they'll get around to this exposition in the anime.

Yawgmoft
Nov 15, 2004


AnoHito posted:

I don't get it, why does everyone think Typhon is evil? She didn't actually hurt Barusu at all. So far, the most "evil" witch is Daphne, and even she wasn't completely terrible.

We have no reason to believe she didn't perform these exact same 'tests' when she was alive in locations where the person she was testing wasn't in a pocket dimention between life and death where their real body wasn't being shattered into pieces. If she was just walking around a city doing that I think she'd get quite the reputation.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


The Witch of Envy abducted Subaru, depositing him on an entirely different planet without warning or explanation, and the one time he tried to brave the "don't tell anyone or I'll make you regret it" condition on the boon she granted him, she went ahead and killed an innocent girl to prove her point.

But on the other hand she gave him a superpower, so who can say if she's good or bad?

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Sep 7, 2020

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


(I preface this post by saying I have not read on the lore of this series/the WN/LN's and I only know what the anime has shown)

Here's a dumb theory: Every witch we've met, so far, is the typical...

Here be Witches posted:

"Conventional morality? :hmbol:"
... type of character in their own particular way. What if Satella, when bestowed with the power (hear me out, part of the theory is that they were not "born" with it) still kept a relatively-conventional sense of morality? Which is what ended up driving her murderously insane?

Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Mindblast posted:

Everything suggests the entire world is filled with things he can't handle. He's also stands out to anyone who can pick up on aura's. Nothing suggests he'd be safe.

There are side stories about what happens when Subaru peaces out of the main plot at various points. He can get pretty drat far, even discounting the mostly-a-joke "Harem King" one.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Mindblast posted:

Everything suggests the entire world is filled with things he can't handle. He's also stands out to anyone who can pick up on aura's. Nothing suggests he'd be safe.

And again: "don't tell or I kill the witnesses" is pretty drat terrible.

VVVV :hmmyes:

Here's the thing, the Witch's scent at it's most minimal seems to not be a big deal by itself. It's only when he died once or twice it spikes and drives people who smell something funny initially to murderous levels of suspicion.

If he peaces out and its either been a while since he last died or hasn't died yet, then he's fine.

Likewise most of the time he can't handle anything is a direct result of being with Emilia, encountering Knights, monsters and so on. If he peaces out and just works for a random shop/bakery he's likely fine along with 99% of other regular people in the setting who don't have any apparent magic powers or jrpg martial skills.

It's only as a result of trying to either protect Emilia or advance his perception of her interests that he ends up going against others.

Kung Food
Dec 11, 2006

PORN WIZARD

Paracelsus posted:

There are side stories about what happens when Subaru peaces out of the main plot at various points. He can get pretty drat far, even discounting the mostly-a-joke "Harem King" one.

Would be funny is he lived a full uneventful life with Rem and died of old age peacefully in his bed surrounded by loved ones, then goes immediately back to the last save point. Now that I think about it that is probably what would happen, I don't think he gets to nope out of his destiny.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


Kung Food posted:

Would be funny is he lived a full uneventful life with Rem and died of old age peacefully in his bed surrounded by loved ones, then goes immediately back to the last save point. Now that I think about it that is probably what would happen, I don't think he gets to nope out of his destiny.
That's how I always thought that worked because he 'didn't make Emilia King' in that run.

Maxwell Adams
Oct 21, 2000

T E E F S

Wark Say posted:

(I preface this post by saying I have not read on the lore of this series/the WN/LN's and I only know what the anime has shown)

Here's a dumb theory: Every witch we've met, so far, is the typical...

... type of character in their own particular way. What if Satella, when bestowed with the power (hear me out, part of the theory is that they were not "born" with it) still kept a relatively-conventional sense of morality? Which is what ended up driving her murderously insane?

The thing about the witches is that they don't necessarily embody the sin they're named for, but rather, they're trying to deal with that issue. Wrath is trying to work on the wrath problem, etc. The witch of envy probably wanted people to all be on a level playing field, just like Emilia wants everyone to be equal. She would have seen the other witches as a perfect example of too much power in the hands of a few causing problems for everyone.

My theory is, Satella went nuts because she went for gluttony first; the biggest problem causer. After absorbing gluttony, she had a hankering for witches she just couldn't satisfy.

Maxwell Adams fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Sep 7, 2020

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Kung Food posted:

Would be funny is he lived a full uneventful life with Rem and died of old age peacefully in his bed surrounded by loved ones, then goes immediately back to the last save point. Now that I think about it that is probably what would happen, I don't think he gets to nope out of his destiny.

According to what Echidna said this episode, the curse doesn't give a poo poo about what happens to anyone else, only whether Subaru himself is in danger in the near future. Why is why his save points update when they do. I guess Emilia could be an exception because she's the reincarnation of the witch or whatever, but there's no real indication that Satella cares if she lives or dies. In fact she clearly doesn't.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


Clarste posted:

According to what Echidna said this episode, the curse doesn't give a poo poo about what happens to anyone else, only whether Subaru himself is in danger in the near future. Why is why his save points update when they do. I guess Emilia could be an exception because she's the reincarnation of the witch or whatever, but there's no real indication that Satella cares if she lives or dies. In fact she clearly doesn't.

Given that the Witch Crushed Emilia's heart she indeed does not.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


MonsterEnvy posted:

Given that the Witch Crushed Emilia's heart she indeed does not.
That or her autonomous bullshit detector she went "nooooooooooo you're not supposed to tell her that. Make her king without telling her that dipshit. Here, enjoy your dead Emilia. Later" :kheldragar:
There's a reason why Satella summoned him to this world, specifically nearby Emilia, and I doubt we will know till the finale 10 years from now.

Grouchio fucked around with this message at 01:20 on Sep 8, 2020

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



Obv Satella is a shipper, and she will make anyone die for her ship.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


How and why Subaru's gotten Return by Death remains a mystery (along with just entirely how he got taken to another world), but I've been thinking it in light of some things Echidna's done:

1) Echidna has affected Subaru on the outside of her dreamscape tea party - death hasn't been a particular hindrance to this, so Satella being sealed isn't likely to have meant much in similar regards (even before we had this Sanctuary appearance)
2) Echidna has taken Subaru's memory of their encounter once, clearly stating so, and if we hadn't seen it (and he hadn't gotten it back) it would have remained unknown despite it meaning something - if Subaru had made some kind of arrangement with Satella in exchange for RbD and she took his memory as payment, we would not know without being shown
3) This reaches back a bit to a different character, but every time Emilia died, Puck would come out and initiate Operation Death Blizzard in accordance with his contract.

The hypothesis I'm forming is that Subaru, somehow, encountered and formed a contract with Satella that he doesn't remember, and he's been given Return by Death as part of that, but one of the (the only?) stipulation(s) is that he absolutely cannot discuss his power with anyone. It's only when he makes the attempt that she gives him the ol' friendly heart squeeze, and it was only when he resolved to keep talking even if it killed him that Emilia went down instead. Right now there's a roaming witch flooding the world with shadow, and that's directly after he's told someone "I can Return by Death" without the "kill the listener" bit kicking in (Echidna's already dead, of course).

Presumably this is meant to be one of the longest-standing mysteries, so even if I'm right, it's unlikely that the exact specifics will be cleared up until very late in the overall story.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Some rough cuts in this one, but I suppose that's a casualty of hellworld.
They'd hinted at one of the reveals this go before, but I kinda wasn't expecting them to EXPLODE.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*




:siren: It's time for episode 10! :siren:

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Cool episode, one thing I have questions about : why did Garfield backed off of Subaru at the end? Did Subaru say something? I'm not sure I understood that last exchange.

I only have questions among questions about Subaru meeting Beako at the end.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





Raenir Salazar posted:

Cool episode, one thing I have questions about : why did Garfield backed off of Subaru at the end? Did Subaru say something? I'm not sure I understood that last exchange.

I only have questions among questions about Subaru meeting Beako at the end.

I haven't read the light novels or anything, but I took him backing while he was holding him against the tree to be because he was just shocked that Subaru would be risking pissing him off to test what would make him angry.

I believe he ultimately let him go because Subaru said that he had been through hell with such conviction that he believed him. And that he believed that he would not do anything to intentionally harm the sanctuary or Emelia.

Fat and Useless
Sep 3, 2011

Not Thin and Useful




Raenir Salazar posted:

Cool episode, one thing I have questions about : why did Garfield backed off of Subaru at the end? Did Subaru say something? I'm not sure I understood that last exchange.

I only have questions among questions about Subaru meeting Beako at the end.

If I had to guess he has spicy Echidna burps.

So yeah, this feels like a successful loop unless something explodes in a bad way.

Fat and Useless fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Sep 9, 2020

Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007

Moralists don't really *have* beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child's toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded.



Garfiel clearly takes pride in being inscrutable and unpredictable. Someone pushing his buttons to get him to act how they want puts him off his game and makes him uncertain about how to respond, which is no doubt unsettling for someone who is used to being on the other side of that interaction. And once he was off-balance, Subaru's conviction/determination made him back down.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


Garfiel: RAWR THE POWER OF LASAGNA COMPELS-

Satella: Nah.

Brutal Garcon
Nov 2, 2014



Lost amongst the more dramatic things that happened in the episode, but yeah, that is how people who actually had to share a world with fairies would react to that comparison.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

A big flaming stink
Apr 26, 2010


Dzhay posted:

Lost amongst the more dramatic things that happened in the episode, but yeah, that is how people who actually had to share a world with fairies would react to that comparison.

i would expect a reaction more along the lines of "holy poo poo do NOT compare me to them do you know how much that pisses them off????"

on the episode itself, the fact that echidna gave subaru a weapon to escape a permanent game over seems further evidence to me that she knew subaru telling her about return by death would piss satella off to high heaven and cause her to rampage.

subaru also comes out and says that garfiel cannot actually smell the scent of the witch on him (which is especially obvious seeing as garfiel greets him in a friendly manner upon exit from the trial)

but my previous suspicion was that ryuzu was the one able to smell the witch and informed garfiel of this fact, but ryuzu is firmly in subaru's corner. Is the someone else able to smell the witch's scent that we haven't met yet?

A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Sep 9, 2020

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply