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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

So is Emilia in this timeline merely crazy or is she Satella at the end?

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Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

I think mostly A with a little bit of B from the glowing eyes.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


If the set-up's largely done, then as we have it - Mansion-wise: Elsa and Maylie show up with orders to kill the maids and Beatrice. Their arrival is flexible - they apparently were ordered to wait until Subaru is returning from Sanctuary, though if he leaves early enough they can be caught out as they seem to have some arrival/set-up time. It's not enough time (starting from the second day at least) to bypass them altogether, though. They may have an upper limit on how long they wait.
Elsa knows about the Door Crossing's brute force condition - this suggests some insider knowledge and may be the most damning evidence that Roswaal has hired her for the attack. Ram knew about it too (she mentioned it to Subaru when she as showing him around the mansion one loop), so it's at least known by the staff/residents of the manor, but given everyone else's states, it seems highly unlikely that it's anyone but Mathers himself who'd have told her. Elsa herself is a ridiculous opponent - she either has some serious ninja tricks to avoid death or she has some way to circumvent/regenerate from it, given Beatrice's attack. Maylie has a bunch of mabeasts with her - these may be a lesser threat overall (recalling that even Subaru was able to dispatch one), but it's potentially a troublesome amount of reinforcements and obstacles to escape. No one at the mansion seems capable of taking the duo out, and even Ram's addition isn't enough. Roswaal might be powerful enough to drive them off but he wouldn't be likely to help for various reasons. Maybe transformed Garfiel and Emilia would be enough to tip the scales? Subaru would need to find some way to get them out, which probably means finishing the trial.

Beatrice made it pretty clear that the only way to free her from her contract is to kill her or overwrite it. Narratively, I would say all signs point to Subaru overwriting the contract - he definitely doesn't want her dead, and she's been exhibiting signs that she cares about him the whole time. Plus, now that we know that her book of the future is blank and has been for a long time, nothing was written to tell her to protect Subaru, but she does it anyway. So his goals in going to the mansion are likely going to be "make a contract with Beatrice, deal with Elsa and Maylie (likely going to have to involve a fight to get everyone out alive)."

Sanctuary-wise: the barrier keeping halfs inside (specifically, since Frederica was able to leave under the conditions) will not go away until the Trial is successfully completed. It has three stages, with the first being "facing your past" - Emilia is having great difficulty with this step, and seems to only be keeping it together with Subaru's support (we don't see what happens after he leaves on the first two loops, but on the third loop Emilia is taking the trial when Garfiel hunts down Subaru, and after he wakes, the snow's happened - on the most recent loop the snow happened much sooner, and Emilia has already snapped. Loop 4 is the anomaly but given the Witch of Envy's appearance that's understandable. We know that Roswaal is the one making it snow, and he suggests that the Great Rabbit was drawn by it - he is an extremely powerful magic user, after all. I don't know for certain but the timing hints to me that Roswaal makes it snow if Emilia breaks down from a failed trail without Subaru there to lean on (alternatively, if Subaru's gone too long - both times are also after Subaru wakes up in the prison room). Dealing with Ryuzu seems to be the key to Garfiel, so Subaru needs to get her on his side early. Then he either needs the Trial to be completed as fast as possible or he needs to prevent Emilia from taking it while he deals with the Mansion (if he can?) - if he takes too long he appears to lose any element of surprise which seems like a necessary factor for murder prevention and besides, who knows when/if the Great Rabbit will show up without the snow?

The biggest problem is that it looks incredibly difficult to thread the needle on getting everything to align at two locations. Roswaal wants Subaru to focus on nothing besides Emilia, but I can't imagine that Subaru would be willing to give up on everyone else (especially with Rem at the mansion) for her sake.

booksnake
May 4, 2009

we who are crowned with the crest of wisdom

Subaru posted:

Roswaal, why are you like this?

:same:

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Hogama posted:

If the set-up's largely done, then as we have it - Mansion-wise: Elsa and Maylie show up with orders to kill the maids and Beatrice. Their arrival is flexible - they apparently were ordered to wait until Subaru is returning from Sanctuary, though if he leaves early enough they can be caught out as they seem to have some arrival/set-up time. It's not enough time (starting from the second day at least) to bypass them altogether, though. They may have an upper limit on how long they wait.
Elsa knows about the Door Crossing's brute force condition - this suggests some insider knowledge and may be the most damning evidence that Roswaal has hired her for the attack. Ram knew about it too (she mentioned it to Subaru when she as showing him around the mansion one loop), so it's at least known by the staff/residents of the manor, but given everyone else's states, it seems highly unlikely that it's anyone but Mathers himself who'd have told her. Elsa herself is a ridiculous opponent - she either has some serious ninja tricks to avoid death or she has some way to circumvent/regenerate from it, given Beatrice's attack. Maylie has a bunch of mabeasts with her - these may be a lesser threat overall (recalling that even Subaru was able to dispatch one), but it's potentially a troublesome amount of reinforcements and obstacles to escape. No one at the mansion seems capable of taking the duo out, and even Ram's addition isn't enough. Roswaal might be powerful enough to drive them off but he wouldn't be likely to help for various reasons. Maybe transformed Garfiel and Emilia would be enough to tip the scales? Subaru would need to find some way to get them out, which probably means finishing the trial.


The simplest solution to this is that if Roswaal really did hire Elsa, he could have simply ordered her to only kill anyone if Subaru shows up without Emilia or whatever. And do nothing otherwise. In which case this is a cruel test of character where Roswaal punishes Subaru for choosing "wrong" while still leaving everyone alive and well if he chooses to sacrifice them for Emilia. Which fits his MO as a psychopath who doesn't care what happens as long as the correct future exists, somewhere. It's not like he has any reason to have Elsa kill his own loyal vassals as long as Subaru complies.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


My folks on discord think this is the best episode to date.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





I would think the trick would just be to send Otto off by himself to have the mansion evacuated the moment he starts the loop over while also supporting Emelia and taking the trials himself.

Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007

Moralists don't really *have* beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child's toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded.



Nitrousoxide posted:

I would think the trick would just be to send Otto off by himself to have the mansion evacuated the moment he starts the loop over while also supporting Emelia and taking the trials himself.

Evacuate where? Elsa and Maylie are clearly equipped to track their targets and don't care about collateral damage. And Beatrice isn't going to leave on Otto's say-so.

Also everything with Emilia this episode gave me real strong Doki Doki Literature Club vibes.

Yak of Wrath
Feb 24, 2011

Keeping It Together


Roswaal's comment about being fine with murder/death as long as an alternate him can potentially fulfill his longterm goals, made me think, there is no reason that any "bad" timeline would end with Suburu's death, maybe they're chugging along empowering Satella as Suburu fumbles about trying to find the "good" universe.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Yak of Wrath posted:

Roswaal's comment about being fine with murder/death as long as an alternate him can potentially fulfill his longterm goals, made me think, there is no reason that any "bad" timeline would end with Suburu's death, maybe they're chugging along empowering Satella as Suburu fumbles about trying to find the "good" universe.

Roswaal said it would "end" for him when Subaru died which implied to me he believes that the alternate timelines will completely cease to exist past that point. I was actually assuming that the alternate timelines persisted until he said that. Then again, there's no reason to believe he fully understands the mechanics of this either.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

The existence of possible parallel time lines and parallel "you's" is an existentialist crisis of faith waiting to happen and frankly I'm willing to forgive Roswaal a little if the knowledge of it broke them lovecraft style as its knowledge no man is meant to know, so I feel like psychopath isn't entirely warranted yet, he does seem to have genuine cares and attachments to people.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


I'm thinking Roswaal doesn't specifically know the details of Return by Death, and he only really seems to confirm suspicions that Subaru is looping at all when he starts mentioning things like "over and over." It seems that he's deduced that Subaru must be repeating timelines, and believes strongly enough that it really doesn't matter if "he" dies because his book continues to show the future that "should be", so when things go wrong he needs only trust Subaru to reset and do things properly the next time so that Roswaal will live on and go a step further to his goal. But he doesn't seem to actually know that death is the trigger - he questions Subaru on still not resetting after he roughs him up, which implies to me that he thinks that Subaru is in control of the power. I find it far more likely that he'd murder Subaru himself if he knew he could force it that way.

What's very possible to me is that his book actually has things written in it and he at least attempts to follow the script to the letter, and he's been piecing together the "whys" as it goes.

dipwood
Feb 21, 2004

rouge means red in french

At this point I'm flabbergasted that Subaru isn't just taking the trials as soon as he wakes up. Echidna is outside time so he only has to do them once. I bet a Garfiel/Beatrice combo can take care of the mansion.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Hogama posted:

I'm thinking Roswaal doesn't specifically know the details of Return by Death, and he only really seems to confirm suspicions that Subaru is looping at all when he starts mentioning things like "over and over." It seems that he's deduced that Subaru must be repeating timelines, and believes strongly enough that it really doesn't matter if "he" dies because his book continues to show the future that "should be", so when things go wrong he needs only trust Subaru to reset and do things properly the next time so that Roswaal will live on and go a step further to his goal. But he doesn't seem to actually know that death is the trigger - he questions Subaru on still not resetting after he roughs him up, which implies to me that he thinks that Subaru is in control of the power. I find it far more likely that he'd murder Subaru himself if he knew he could force it that way.

What's very possible to me is that his book actually has things written in it and he at least attempts to follow the script to the letter, and he's been piecing together the "whys" as it goes.


Yeah I noticed that too. He seems to be making some incorrect assumptions about it.

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



Someone correct my memory here, but has Subaru actually ever given that password thing to Beatrice yet in any loop?

A big flaming stink
Apr 26, 2010


Raxivace posted:

Someone correct my memory here, but has Subaru actually ever given that password thing to Beatrice yet in any loop?

no, and judging from beatrice's reaction to subaru trying to persuade her not to want to die, roswaal has severely misjudged beatrice's willingness to dedicate herself to the someone she has been waiting for

macabresca
Jan 26, 2019

I WANNA HUG


Raxivace posted:

Someone correct my memory here, but has Subaru actually ever given that password thing to Beatrice yet in any loop?

What was the password again? "I'm the one you've been waiting for" or something?

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



macabresca posted:

What was the password again? "I'm the one you've been waiting for" or something?

Yup. I was waiting for him to drop that this episode, but he didn't. :shrug:

Nullsmack
Dec 7, 2001
Digital apocalypse

AlternateNu posted:

Yup. I was waiting for him to drop that this episode, but he didn't. :shrug:

Isn't there two things he's supposed to say? Ask the question and I'm that person? I might be mixing a couple of things up though. I need to watch these back-to-back instead of 1 episode per week.

Yawgmoft
Nov 15, 2004


Honestly learning that Betty is also shadow leads me to believe that, due to Subaru's spirit affinity, once this arc is wrapped up and he says the correct thing to her she's going to change form and give him a power boost. I like Subaru being weak but shifting the power dynamic a touch might open up the story.

Kung Food
Dec 11, 2006

PORN WIZARD

AlternateNu posted:

Yup. I was waiting for him to drop that this episode, but he didn't. :shrug:

He realized what being "That person" to her meant, and that wasn't a commitment he was willing to make.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

dipwood posted:

At this point I'm flabbergasted that Subaru isn't just taking the trials as soon as he wakes up. Echidna is outside time so he only has to do them once. I bet a Garfiel/Beatrice combo can take care of the mansion.

He suggested it in one loop and Emilia immediately acted like Subaru had betrayed her; it isn't something that will cross Subaru's mind to do (because he's been very busy investigating all the stuff he doesn't know which is pretty reasonable) in the present circumstances. Now that he knows what he now knows I think we'll see him make the attempt if he can get Emilia to agree to it.

Tamba
Apr 5, 2010



Clarste posted:

Roswaal said it would "end" for him when Subaru died which implied to me he believes that the alternate timelines will completely cease to exist past that point. I was actually assuming that the alternate timelines persisted until he said that. Then again, there's no reason to believe he fully understands the mechanics of this either.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality

e: replaced link

Tamba fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Sep 17, 2020

Sankara
Jul 18, 2008




I would really like for the timeline to progress now, I want some wins. This is teetering on misery porn.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Sankara posted:

This is teetering on misery porn.

Good thread title

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





How long has it been since Subaru arrived in this world at this point? I noticed a couple of episodes ago when he was reading their language and it was clearly not Japanese. That would mean should have been there at least several months to have a very basic ability to read unless it's was magically instilled in him when he was brought over.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Nitrousoxide posted:

How long has it been since Subaru arrived in this world at this point? I noticed a couple of episodes ago when he was reading their language and it was clearly not Japanese. That would mean should have been there at least several months to have a very basic ability to read unless it's was magically instilled in him when he was brought over.

It's been a few months, and his efforts to learn to read and write are something of a plot point during the mansion arc.

It comes up again during the whale arc - the letter Rem leaves for him when she heads back to the mansion on her own is intentionally written in a simplistic way so that he would be able to understand it.

Kylra
Dec 1, 2006

Not a cute boy, just a boring girl.


In season 1 during the mansion loop Ram taught him how to read and write.

I'm not a super chronographer, but probably more than a year but not two since I don't think they've had two winters. I think there was a timeskip of some degree going into the royal selection arc.

smenj
Oct 10, 2012


Great episode this week. Curious about something though:





So, Roswaal says the above just before he beats up Subaru, around 21:50, and audibly and with emphasis says "smart" in English, hence the italics in the subtitles. I'd not have thought much of it and might've just assumed it was a loanword in Japanese, if not for the fact that he immediately asks Subaru if he used the word correctly. Is this a word Subaru used around Roswaal before and Roswaal's using it to taunt him, and I've just forgotten about it, or is the show implying that Roswaal is aware that Subaru comes from another universe/world, and somehow knows enough about it to know some English words?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

I honestly had a thought that Roswaal is Subaru from the future.

Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007

Moralists don't really *have* beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child's toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded.



Subaru has also been there longer than the actual surviving timeline. He got to pull a bit of a Bill Murray in Groundhog Day with learning to read.

If Return by Death were more predictable he could spend a couple loops having Wilhelm teach him to swordfight.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Nitrousoxide posted:

How long has it been since Subaru arrived in this world at this point? I noticed a couple of episodes ago when he was reading their language and it was clearly not Japanese. That would mean should have been there at least several months to have a very basic ability to read unless it's was magically instilled in him when he was brought over.
Arc 1-2 take place over a week, then there's like a month gap between 2-3 where little stories like Memory Snow happen, then it's about a week and change for arc 3 leading in to arc 4.

(for placing arc 3 relative to arc 1)

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


smenj posted:

Great episode this week. Curious about something though:





So, Roswaal says the above just before he beats up Subaru, around 21:50, and audibly and with emphasis says "smart" in English, hence the italics in the subtitles. I'd not have thought much of it and might've just assumed it was a loanword in Japanese, if not for the fact that he immediately asks Subaru if he used the word correctly. Is this a word Subaru used around Roswaal before and Roswaal's using it to taunt him, and I've just forgotten about it, or is the show implying that Roswaal is aware that Subaru comes from another universe/world, and somehow knows enough about it to know some English words?

I got the impression that he learned it from Subaru (who has a habit of casually saying things that people wouldn't understand) but I don't remember any instance of him using that word specifically.

Actually come to think of it Garfiel does the same thing only backwards which is funny.

Pilfered Pallbearers
Aug 2, 2007




Raenir Salazar posted:

I honestly had a thought that Roswaal is Subaru from the future.

Weird. I had this exact same thought during this ep.

Disconnecticus
Oct 21, 2012

Wait, like, actual money?

Kingnothing posted:

Weird. I had this exact same thought during this ep.

There's very definitely some kind of temporal hijinks going on at a larger scale than we've seen so far. It's pretty much implicit in the RbD power.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


So long as we avoid "Satella is Emilia from the future" I'm good.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that the instances we've had of the Witch possessing Emilia have little to do with any personal connection between the two (though she serves fine as a potential vessel due to being a half-elf that closely matches her appearance), and are instead almost entirely driven by her attachment to Subaru - when Emilia's mental state deteriorates due to the trials it simply gives her an opening to jump in.

HppyCmpr
May 8, 2011


:asoiaf:

I was busy last week so I had the ability to watch the last two episodes as a pair, what an experience that was especially considering all the plot points they touched upon. I will say, like Rem, I have faith that Subaru has a plan moving forward; he seemed set on needing one final answer in the most recent episode.

I have got some more ideas about how to handle this, I am anime only, but I will spoiler it just to be safe. It will be a lot of thought vomit though so beware. I will try to structure it as best I can. :discourse:



First, it seems like he has a timeline going forward where he can handle certain objectives in a specific order. Firstly either he or Emilia needs to pass the trials, I know it sounds simple but I'm assuming this will probably be a multiple episode process unless Subaru decides to just jump back into the process in the next episode. It seems like time passes differently during the trials so he might be able to undertake the second and third without anyone noticing? I guess his other option here is to try and get access to the witches tea party again, he'd clearly have the motivation after the most recent episode and it seems clear he wants to demand some answer from Echidna about how much she knew would occur; especially considering the modification she made to handkerchief. I think we have learned that Echidna has her own goals in mind, considering they are trapped in a place that was her laboratory to try and achieve immortality. He has also learned that Echidna made a contract with Beatrice that trapped her there and left her in pain, so I am sure he will struggle to let that go by. I am assuming that if Subaru stays with Emilia and looks after her, like Puck asked, that one of them will be able to succeed and free the Sanctuary. The only reason why I am leaning towards Subaru being the one to undertake the trials is because whenever he mentioned to Echidna that Emilia would complete the task she smirked and questioned it. Clearly, she knows more than she lets on so maybe she has an idea of how the future plays out. This could relate to the gospels that keep showing up that seem to tell some version of the future.

Continuing that timeline it seems like if they can pass the trials quick enough they could take Garfiel, Ram, and Emilia (as well as Roswaal I guess) to head to the mansion to try and cut off Elsa and Maylie. If they combine with Beatrice, I will guess they may be able to repel the attack or at least flee back to the capital. From there they would then need to deal with the Great Rabbit. I'm not really sure how they'd handle that but if they're able to get that far we might get another save point update where the next Arc involves dealing with the Great Rabbit similar to when they encountered the White Whale. Like someone else mentioned it seemed like the theme of this Arc is dealing with Greed and its apostles so I would imagine the trials will take some time and then they will deal with the rabbit afterwards. The rabbit only seemed to turn up when things were taking a turn for the worse and seemed to accompany the snow; so, it could be triggered by Emilia falling into despair. I am hoping the next episode we get some relief from all of Subaru's suffering though, he has had a really rough go of it, and I think our boy needs a win.

I do think it's interesting that in this most recent episode we saw an example of how shadow magic could be used in an offensive sense, since from memory the previous mentions of it have all been defensive and leaning towards fleeing or stealth. Maybe Subaru will be able to strengthen his gate, or the witch’s fluid will enable to him to attain some of his own power. It does seem thematic though from the first season that most of his strength relies on his mind and his resilience as well as his ability to engage with people and gain allies to achieve his end goal; so that could just be a pipe dream.

I don't think they're going to do any time travel things with either Subaru or Emilia, it felt more like that was an insight into how Roswaal views the world and what he perceives to be Subaru’s power; I mean they're currently residing in an experiment about rebirth so maybe he think it's a power related to that? From his perception even though Subaru mentions doing things again and again he is right. He exists in this world until he dies, maybe Roswaal thinks there's some kind of time travel or teleportation involved but he doesn't know the extent of how Subaru's power is triggered so he disregards that it's based on death. There is also the potential that his book is somewhat like Beatrice’s though he seemed rather certain his one was not defective. Maybe it tells of someone like Subaru coming and gives an idea of branching time streams, Roswaal just assumes any time stream outside the book is one where the world burns and his plans fails, while he sees Subaru as someone who will eventually see Roswaal's goal achieved to an end due to a power he doesn't understand but is told to trust by the book and another contract to follow Subaru and Emilia. I am assuming based on how many properties he owns that relate to the Witch of Greed that he wants to resurrect Echidna. Could the trials be a test to find a worthy vessel for her?

Thank you for reading. :hfive:



It has been a wild ride though and I am excited for next week’s episode. I am not sure how many episodes are left but there is so much to unpack, and this was just a detour from the whole saving Rem, which was a detour from the Royal Selection. Wow! That feels like a long time ago. :magical:

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


HppyCmpr posted:


The rabbit only seemed to turn up when things were taking a turn for the worse and seemed to accompany the snow; so, it could be triggered by Emilia falling into despair.



We know the answer to this one already Roswaal summons the snow to drive Emilia into despair and it summons the rabbit by acting as a mana beacon.

Annointed
Mar 2, 2013



I hope Felt is having a good time, whatever she's doing.

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Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


Annointed posted:

I hope Felt is having a good time, whatever she's doing.
I am sure she is busy being a streetrat-turned-princess in a gown bumbling through misadventures with Reinhard. All in all, an uneventful life compared to Natsuki loving Subaru.

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