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Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



Yeah I don't have a problem with him considering the contract, but that he doesn't seem to actually put much of any thought at all into what his end of the deal would be.

Like its a bit of jarring writing to have right after the scene where he sees through the fake Rem.

Raxivace fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Sep 23, 2020

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Annointed
Mar 2, 2013



:allbuttons:

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


:whatfor:

Brutal Garcon
Nov 2, 2014



Kind of wondering what the mechanics of magically enforced contracts actually are in this world. It seems unusual for this type of thing that Echidna could even try to set one up without telling Subaru all the terms and conditions.

(And I think Subaru's being a little harsh on Echidna here. Almost everyone he knows is pursuing an idiosyncratic set of goals, to the detriment of conventional morality.)

Ethiser
Dec 31, 2011



Raxivace posted:

Yeah I don't have a problem with him considering the contract, but that he doesn't seem to actually put much of any thought at all into what his end of the deal would be.

Like its a bit of jarring writing to have right after the scene where he sees through the fake Rem.

It really seems like if he had just really hashed out what the contract would entail and negotiated the terms some he could have come out okay. Though I’m honestly not 100% sure what his side of the deal was. Was she going to take control of his body or just ask him to mess around in some of the loops and maybe do some unsavory stuff? Though saying you’re going to get the best ending seems to necessitate also taking the best path. Like if he has to torture his friends or something evil to get the “best ending” then that’s probably not the best ending.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Raxivace posted:

A very good episode.

Man, I still can't believe how easily Subaru was just about to rush into that deal with Echidna before everyone else showed up though. For as much as they say Subaru was an otaku or whatever before getting isekai'd, you'd think someone like that would be more suspicious of a deal with a self-proclaimed Witch since I'm sure that kind of thing has come up a thousand times before in the kinds of media he would have consumed.

He knew it wasn't smart but he really, really, from the bottom of his heart wanted to just trust her. Pummeled after everything, he just wanted to let this lady - his only confidant re RbD and who has already saved him twice - help him without questioning her motives. An answer of sorts to the ongoing concern everyone around Subaru has with how he tries to shoulder everything.

Contrast with their very first meeting where he disengaged the very first chance he got.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Conspiratiorist posted:

He knew it wasn't smart but he really, really, from the bottom of his heart wanted to just trust her. Pummeled after everything, he just wanted to let this lady - his only confidant re RbD and who has already saved him twice - help him without questioning her motives. An answer of sorts to the ongoing concern everyone around Subaru has with how he tries to shoulder everything.

Contrast with their very first meeting where he disengaged the very first chance he got.

Can't blame him really.

I really hope though he ends up negotiating a "lite" version just so we can have Echidna tagging along with Subaru for the ride. Even better if she feels what he feels for Higurashi no koro ni shenanigans where the shinto girl ate really spicy food to mess with her guardian spirit. A version where she gets to tag along and chime in seems like a win-win scenario to me where he's not obligated to do anything she tells him.

What's interesting is that the contract reminds me of the deal (Webcomic Order of the Stick spoilers) Varsuuvius got with the three fiends where three epic spellcasters joined up to their spirit. Feels very similar on a host of levels.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





So Echidna seems to also imply that Subaru isn't really traveling through time per se but jumping cross parallel universes and leaving the hosed up ones behind when he dies.

If this is so it's extremely hosed up and puts a whole new twist on him trying to avoid getting killed.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Nitrousoxide posted:

So Echidna seems to also imply that Subaru isn't really traveling through time per se but jumping cross parallel universes and leaving the hosed up ones behind when he dies.

If this is so it's extremely hosed up and puts a whole new twist on him trying to avoid getting killed.

Roswaal had already reached the same conclusion despite not knowing about Return by Death. After all, he said that he wouldn't accomplish his goals, but the next him would. He was fully aware that the different loops had different "themselves", rather than just being plain resets. Echidna's visions only confirm that.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Nitrousoxide posted:

So Echidna seems to also imply that Subaru isn't really traveling through time per se but jumping cross parallel universes and leaving the hosed up ones behind when he dies.

If this is so it's extremely hosed up and puts a whole new twist on him trying to avoid getting killed.

Not quite. Echidna says its a possibility, as its perhaps emotionally the worst possible outcome for Subaru personally to have to deal with that level of guilt and its what the Trial threw at him, but we don't know if its actually the case, only Satella would know.

Annointed
Mar 2, 2013




360 no scop Echidna deal no drawbacks guaranteed

Mindblast
Jun 28, 2006

Moving at the speed of death.




Decent chance the next ep will get me to get the books.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





Raenir Salazar posted:

Not quite. Echidna says its a possibility, as its perhaps emotionally the worst possible outcome for Subaru personally to have to deal with that level of guilt and its what the Trial threw at him, but we don't know if its actually the case, only Satella would know.

I mean, it seems like the more plausible read on how things have ended up for him. Echidna knows about events that should have been erased from time. If instead he is just traveling across parallel worlds then it stands the reason she might be able to know about those. He also retains passing the trials across resets which doesn't make a whole lot of sense if time is resetting but makes a whole heck of a lot more sense if he's shifting across universes. If that's the case then his world line is omnidirectional and from his perspective he passed the trials in the past perfectly fine.

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



Nitrousoxide posted:

I mean, it seems like the more plausible read on how things have ended up for him. Echidna knows about events that should have been erased from time. If instead he is just traveling across parallel worlds then it stands the reason she might be able to know about those. He also retains passing the trials across resets which doesn't make a whole lot of sense if time is resetting but makes a whole heck of a lot more sense if he's shifting across universes. If that's the case then his world line is omnidirectional and from his perspective he passed the trials in the past perfectly fine.
if emelia and the trials are getting their information on previous worlds and previous trials by reading his mind, or otherwise sourcing it from him, then it wouldn't matter whether he's going back in time or travelling between dimensions.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Yeah, that's likely what's happening: Echidna only exists across timelines through Subaru, which is what makes her so interested in him. Walking into her tomb gives her access to his brain, so every time he loops it's as if he's suddenly exploded with ever growing data on alternate realities for her to pick apart.

The trials likewise are a "test" that happens all in one's own mind - Subaru knows he's passed them, therefore she knows he has.

Rudoku
Jun 15, 2003

Damn I need a drink...




Conspiratiorist posted:

Yeah, that's likely what's happening: Echidna only exists across timelines through Subaru, which is what makes her so interested in him. Walking into her tomb gives her access to his brain, so every time he loops it's as if he's suddenly exploded with ever growing data on alternate realities for her to pick apart.

The trials likewise are a "test" that happens all in one's own mind - Subaru knows he's passed them, therefore she knows he has.

That and his "save point" is right after he passed the first test.

A big flaming stink
Apr 26, 2010


Rudoku posted:

That and his "save point" is right after he passed the first test.

still, he was able to update his pact of echidna so that he would remember the tea parties even after new loops

echidna's realm clearly exists outside of conventional time

Disconnecticus
Oct 21, 2012

Wait, like, actual money?

I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her.

Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Disconnecticus posted:

I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her.

Reinhard. Julius hasn't met Elsa.

Disconnecticus
Oct 21, 2012

Wait, like, actual money?

Blaze Dragon posted:

Reinhard. Julius hasn't met Elsa.
My mistake, but the question still stands - she slaughters Echidna's spirit creation without a problem after getting fully disassembled by her, takes out everyone else at the mansion without breaking a sweat, etc etc.

Brutal Garcon
Nov 2, 2014



Disconnecticus posted:

I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her.

I'm not sure anyone she killed was "good at fighting" by this setting's standards.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


Disconnecticus posted:

I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her.

Reinhardt you mean. Julius never met her.

Reinhardt we also know is overpowered given that the alt history shows him effortless defeating Puck.

sirtommygunn
Mar 7, 2013





Disconnecticus posted:

I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her.

She's very fast and has mostly gone up against mages with seemingly no combat experience who stand perfectly still and just throw a lot of projectiles. Granted, she was able to win a tag team match against Ram and Fredrica, but that just means she's at least stronger than 1 maid.

sirtommygunn fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Sep 24, 2020

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Disconnecticus posted:

I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her.

Honestly that's just the nature of the setting. It's like what if instead of being in a generic fantasy world Subaru was put into the Forgotten Realms I repeat myself and tripped over Elminster, Blackstaff, Drizzt, Gromph, Artemis etc in a row.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES




Exciting Lemon

Raenir Salazar posted:

Honestly that's just the nature of the setting. It's like what if instead of being in a generic fantasy world Subaru was put into the Forgotten Realms I repeat myself and tripped over Elminster, Blackstaff, Drizzt, Gromph, Artemis etc in a row.

Its also like what if instead of being in a generic fantasy world Subaru was put into the Malazan and tripped over Quick Ben, Karsa, Rake, Cottilian , Icarium etc in a row

Rudoku
Jun 15, 2003

Damn I need a drink...




Disconnecticus posted:

My mistake, but the question still stands - she slaughters Echidna's spirit creation without a problem after getting fully disassembled by her, takes out everyone else at the mansion without breaking a sweat, etc etc.

I'm guessing she has a get out of death free power like Reinhardt apparently has (is it a spoiler if Isekai Quartet and Break Time told me about it but the show doesn't?)

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



Rudoku posted:

(is it a spoiler if Isekai Quartet and Break Time told me about it but the show doesn't?)
Yes?

e: oh, Break Time too. idk but you probably should've put the warning before the tags, rather than after

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

M_Gargantua posted:

Its also like what if instead of being in a generic fantasy world Subaru was put into the Malazan and tripped over Quick Ben, Karsa, Rake, Cottilian , Icarium etc in a row

I don't know those people though. I know OF Marazan, my character in the last campaign decided to retire there.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I agree that it's probably possible to negotiate a better deal with Echinda. Since even if he doesn't promise her a billion lifetimes of torture to satisfy her curiosity, she still gets way more out of tagging along with him than she does not doing that. Then again, I guess it would be hard for Subaru to trust her advice knowing that she may inflict eternal torture on his friends at any time for no reason.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Sep 24, 2020

Mindblast
Jun 28, 2006

Moving at the speed of death.




Her reasoning is so alien he'd have to constantly fear/scrutinize any advice given.

Wollawolla
Jan 15, 2007

Are you gonna smash my skull and breathe my blood-mist?


Mindblast posted:

Her reasoning is so alien he'd have to constantly fear/scrutinize any advice given.

That, and she’s only concerned about the end without consideration for the means. She’d be perfectly fine with treating some of his lives as throwaways, used solely for information gathering, and we’ve seen how those potentially end up.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Hence why a lesser version that's more fair can still be worth it, as long as she doesn't have control over him so the final decision is with him. Subaru is the one with leverage in that she wants to be able to leave the Tea Party and be a sort of Force Ghost able to experience new things again.

Regardless of her alienness, she's still valuable to have literally in his back pocket as an ally. He knows the risks now and has sufficient information to make decisions based off of what she says.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Yeah, assuming that she doesn't get control over his body somehow, the worst case scenario is just that he does exactly what he's been doing so far except she's always nagging him to run off into the woods and eat weird berries or whatever.

Annointed
Mar 2, 2013



“subaru you got to eat the eggs”

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





Beware a deal with the devil for he is far more clever than you could hope to be.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



I loved the episode, but the idea that Echidna is kind of an knowledge hungry blank slate that wholly lacks empathy or emotional attachment to anything didn't really gel with me. Just look at how Subaru interacted with her at the beginning of the season. I thought it was pretty clear that his flirtatious attitude got to her, even it she was nominally more interested in what he could do to expand her knowledge base.

Gorka
Aug 18, 2014

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021


AlternateNu posted:

I loved the episode, but the idea that Echidna is kind of an knowledge hungry blank slate that wholly lacks empathy or emotional attachment to anything didn't really gel with me. Just look at how Subaru interacted with her at the beginning of the season. I thought it was pretty clear that his flirtatious attitude got to her, even it she was nominally more interested in what he could do to expand her knowledge base.

I understood that in the sense that she has the knowledge to know how to go through the motions of faking being touched by his attitude, but it's not genuine.
Of course, an argument could be made that she isn't actually a blank state per se, but she still fakes a lot of emotion and is mainly cold and calculating. Being the target of Subaru's banter is something she might not be used to, so she could be showing a bit of the real Echidna in those moments.

Brutal Garcon
Nov 2, 2014



I took it as she's far from emotionless, but she doesn't really understand why she should care about other people, especially if it gets in the way of her obsessions (plus being in Ghost Jail for however long can't have helped). For now, I'm assuming she's a bad person, rather than anything truly inhuman.

MMania
May 7, 2008


We've seen a bunch of Subaru interacting with witches and I can't recall any of them saying anything but what (to them) is the Truth. I don't think you could even explain to them the concept of what a 'lie' is. Echidna truly loves him and want him to have everything he wants, unless I'm forgetting something in their interactions?

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Yak of Wrath
Feb 24, 2011

Keeping It Together


I see it as Genuinely liking Suburu is a completely separate matter from not understanding his suffering as bad, because he can learn and experience what no-one else can via "Return by Death" ISN'T THAT AMAZING?

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