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Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


As anticipated, Echidna never lied to Subaru, as long as lying is defined as telling falsehoods. She deceived him by only telling enough of the truth to get him to jump to conclusions. Like when she brought the other witches in the second party, she never said they COULDN'T manifest separately, only that she could trade places with them - so he'd assumed that was a necessary aspect. The other witches point out that there's a lot she hasn't told him, and that she generally makes contracts with an "in the end" clause. You can assume that's part of all her promises - she says she should be able to come up with a way for Subaru to deal with his problems...in the end. She'll help him achieve the best possible future...in the end.
They'll "agonize over" and "struggle with" problems. Subaru can Return by Death "all he wants until he reaches his desired future" after all. Her heart has affection for him and there is a desire to help him. It's all just that her greed is such that her curiosity will come first in the arrangement, and she's under no obligation to hurry him to his goal or minimize the suffering of anyone involved.

And all that isn't quite enough to fully put Subaru off, even though he realizes that she's very superficial in her care. It's the fact that she put Beatrice, her ostensible daughter, through 400 years of solitude and uncertainty, all for the sake of satisfying her interest in whether Betty would willingly end the contract through her own will, despite explicit terms being incredibly important to spirits (as Puck keeps reminding Subaru). And on Beatrice desiring death over continued existence in that set-up, well Echidna just thinks it's drat wonderful. That's it, Betty was an experiment. Subaru would be one, too, no doubt. The Witch of Greed seems to have the demeanor of a mad scientist. This is where he ultimately rejects her - someone capable of toying with his friends and loved ones for the thrill of LEARNING isn't who he wants a partnership with.

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Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


AAaaaAAAAAAAaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Yawgmoft
Nov 15, 2004


Yak of Wrath posted:

I see it as Genuinely liking Suburu is a completely separate matter from not understanding his suffering as bad, because he can learn and experience what no-one else can via "Return by Death" ISN'T THAT AMAZING?

She's an audience insert for everyone that said things like "well, why not spend a year learning magic, killing yourself every night so you reset time?"

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



Going back through the opening for a moment...



Is Subaru dying to the thugs in they alley something we ever actually saw in the show before?

Yawgmoft
Nov 15, 2004


Yes, there was one very early reset where he fought back and did ok until he got stabbed and they ran off.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Raxivace posted:

Is Subaru dying to the thugs in they alley something we ever actually saw in the show before?
Yes, it was the third loop where he calls Emilia Satella from the get-go and pisses her off.

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



Ah thanks, that one completely slipped my mind it seems.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


Toalpaz posted:

AAaaaAAAAAAAaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
What's up? Never expected my subtitle to be foreshadowing?

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


Echidna comes on very strong huh?

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


https://i.imgur.com/PAriPMU.mp4

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

I ran crying to the mods because someone bought me a title with naughty words in it. (twice!)
I am the world's softest bitch and you you should remind me of it forever. If this text is gone it's because I couldn't handle being a fucking loser.


Smellrose

I hope there's more Minerva. I'm oddly smitten with her character and I don't know why.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


Grouchio posted:

What's up? Never expected my subtitle to be foreshadowing?

I said that as I was watching because the second trial is A LOT.

Toalpaz fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Sep 24, 2020

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


Toalpaz posted:

I said that as I was watching because the second trail is A LOT.
So uh, Subaru driving himself to suicide over Rem in a vain attempt to undo his miscalculation - right after confessing/promising to Emilia to be by her side?

Extreme dick move that was.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


Annointed posted:

“subaru you got to eat the eggs”

Subaru, you gotta stick that seed, waaaaaaaaay up there. Way up your butt Subaru.

Grouchio posted:

So uh, Subaru driving himself to suicide over Rem in a vain attempt to undo his miscalculation - right after confessing/promising to Emilia to be by her side?

Extreme dick move that was.

Yeah, um. Here's hoping that parallel/multiple worlds theory isn't real and subaru's consciousness is on one timeline/RBD literally rewinds time.

doomisland
Oct 5, 2004



Someone remind me why hes infatuated with Emilia

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





doomisland posted:

Someone remind me why hes infatuated with Emilia

I mean the witch of lust appeared to him as Rem, not Emelia, which means that's who he really wants to be there for him.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


doomisland posted:

Someone remind me why hes infatuated with Emilia

:thinking: Witch of lust took Rem's form.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


Toalpaz posted:

Subaru, you gotta stick that seed, waaaaaaaaay up there. Way up your butt Subaru.


Yeah, um. Here's hoping that parallel/multiple worlds theory isn't real and subaru's consciousness is on one timeline/RBD literally rewinds time.
Edit: LN Spoilers not allowed even if the anime has passed points in said LN addendum.

Grouchio fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Sep 24, 2020

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


Grouchio posted:

LN Spoilers: You are correct. The LNs nixed the idea of parallel timelines.

I can't click this and im not looking at it even though I quoted it and accidently saw throught he bbc code lamao (didn't accidently see through edit.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



doomisland posted:

Someone remind me why hes infatuated with Emilia

It's sunk cost at this point, man. :v:

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


doomisland posted:

Someone remind me why hes infatuated with Emilia
He has a thing for silver-haired elves as seen in his pre-isekai room, and she was the first person in his new world he met that helped him out. He only really fell for her over the course of the first loop when he saw that she was truly kind person to everyone (well, at least another random stray child), and then after seeing her die to Elsa he resolved to save her. It's not like he really had any other goals in mind.

Then it's mostly a matter of continuing to interact with her through loops, I suppose.

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


Toalpaz posted:

I can't click this and im not looking at it even though I quoted it and accidently saw throught he bbc code lamao (didn't accidently see through edit.
My mistake.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


doomisland posted:

Someone remind me why hes infatuated with Emilia

he's a self-loathing teenager and she was nice to him

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


Honestly you could fix Echidna. I don't think she's malicious and you could edit in some friendlier terms. She offered you her body Subaru. That's good faith negotiation. She knows what makes him happy, re sending in someone to comfort him!

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

I ran crying to the mods because someone bought me a title with naughty words in it. (twice!)
I am the world's softest bitch and you you should remind me of it forever. If this text is gone it's because I couldn't handle being a fucking loser.


Smellrose

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

he's a self-loathing teenager and she's a pretty girl who was nice to him

I amplified this for you based on my own experiences as a teenager who was a bit too similar to Subaru for comfort.

Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Sep 24, 2020

Maxwell Adams
Oct 21, 2000

T E E F S

I'm pretty sure that Echidna is doing all of this in service of her one true goal: sticking it to Satella.

First off, she gained Subaru's trust, and engineered a situation where Subaru would stab himself to get out of Satella's clutches. Satella didn't like that one bit.

After that, we've got the current situation. Subaru went to try and start up another tea party, but for some reason, it kicked off the second round of the trial instead. That was Echidna, breaking down Subaru so he would be ready to accept a helping hand when it was offered to him. She sent the witch of Lust in there first, which is a weird curveball, but whatever. When she offered the contract, Subaru was ready to accept it.

Now, it stand to reason that the witch of ENVY wouldn't be happy about someone else getting their mitts on her boy. I think there may be more to it than that, though. The other witches implied that a contract with Echidna would be an exclusive contract. What if Subaru currently has a contract with Satella? A new contract would overwrite it. That might even cause him to lose his RFD power. In any case, it would definitely piss off Satella, which seems to be Echidna's main objective.

Yawgmoft
Nov 15, 2004


Woe to you, second pretty girl to be nice to him. You were too late.

MMania
May 7, 2008


So is the Trial that will unlock the boundary-field of Sanctuary also the experiment that will reincarnate Echidna? Obviously just because someone tells Subaru something doesn't mean they're telling the truth, of course.

doomisland
Oct 5, 2004



Echidna will become Subarus stand

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





MMania posted:

So is the Trial that will unlock the boundary-field of Sanctuary also the experiment that will reincarnate Echidna? Obviously just because someone tells Subaru something doesn't mean they're telling the truth, of course.

I don't think Echidna lies. Everything she says is true she just doesn't tell you all of the truth.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


AlternateNu posted:

I loved the episode, but the idea that Echidna is kind of an knowledge hungry blank slate that wholly lacks empathy or emotional attachment to anything didn't really gel with me. Just look at how Subaru interacted with her at the beginning of the season. I thought it was pretty clear that his flirtatious attitude got to her, even it she was nominally more interested in what he could do to expand her knowledge base.

She's not emotionless - she's a psychopath.

Entirely archetypal, even: charming, manipulative, with a stunted emotional range and driven by entirely egotistic motivations.

And I'd say a fairly successful one at that with how much people ITT and elsewhere have been taken in by her.

Yawgmoft posted:

Woe to you, second pretty girl to be nice to him. You were too late.

Love be stupid like that.

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Sep 24, 2020

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

I don't quite think she's a psychopath, at least not in the internet colloquial meaning of "person who does bad things and is evil".

I'm on the camp where Subaru being Subaru with his "Harem Protagonist EX" skill legitimately did in fact reach Echidna and she genuinely wants to help. It is just that her legitimately wanting to help is up there with Hastur wanting to genuinely be helpful and it probably takes more than two meetings for her to more fully come around to Subaru's level.

Although part of me thinks of this as something of a deconstruction of harem tropes just as Re;Zero has generally been a bit of a deconstruction of isekai and nerd male empowerment wish fullfillment; namely, not everyone out there who wants to bone you is going to be a good person merely because they like you and those relationships won't be healthy especially if you jump into them head first.

On some level I wonder if this is supposed to be analogous to abusive relationships... And actually come to think of it I wonder if perhaps that's part of Re;Zero's overall themes w.r.t relationships, hrm.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Nagatsuki's said he doesn't like harems.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Conspiratiorist posted:

Nagatsuki's said he doesn't like harems.

I guess that does reinforce my point but also feel it doesn't add much to the conversation. I think I prefer assuming Death of the Author generally since it provides a more interesting dynamic to how we engage with fiction.

Nitrousoxide
May 30, 2011

do not buy a oneplus phone





Conspiratiorist posted:

And I'd say a fairly successful one at that with how much people ITT and elsewhere have been taken in by her.

Only if you count being dead successful.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



Yawgmoft posted:

Woe to you, second pretty girl to be nice to him. You were too late.

Second pretty girl who was nice to him killed him first.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


AlternateNu posted:

Second pretty girl who was nice to him killed him first.
Well he does have lovely guts.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Conspiratiorist posted:

And I'd say a fairly successful one at that with how much people ITT and elsewhere have been taken in by her.

We can change her! You don't know her like we do!

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

I ran crying to the mods because someone bought me a title with naughty words in it. (twice!)
I am the world's softest bitch and you you should remind me of it forever. If this text is gone it's because I couldn't handle being a fucking loser.


Smellrose

AlternateNu posted:

Second pretty girl who was nice to him killed him first.

Taking the very direct way to his heart.

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Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


Annointed posted:

“subaru you got to eat the eggs”

"Okay, this life we're going to figure out where sailors hang out."

Conspiratiorist posted:

Nagatsuki's said he doesn't like harems.

And yet the Harem King IF story exists.

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