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Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


Oh, and if AnoHito doesn't terribly mind...

Wark Say posted:

Also, please keep spoiler talk light or non-existent. A lot of folks haven't read/don't want to read neither the light novels nor the web version.

Hopefully we can keep this to a minimum? If you feel like spilling it out, just take it to PM's or something. Season 2 still doesn't have an air-date as of yet and while I don't terribly mind (mostly because I've gotten good at disassociating spoilers from things I haven't seen/read/heard thanks to an rear end in a top hat co-worker that took glee in spoiling the first 8 arcs of The Walking Dead comic), I'm sure there are plenty of people who would rather not have to waddle through posts spoiling stuff from the novels.

Putting things behind spoiler bars is good if there's a disclaimer, but again, preferably just don't do it (or if you have plat, just PM the goon who's itchin' to get spoiled rotten).

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Paracelsus
Apr 5, 2009

bless this post ~kya


ViggyNash posted:

the talking about running away episode was still too much talking

you shut your whore mouth

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

So does anyone want to bet on how many times we will see the ending sequences?

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


Didn't the director mention something along the lines of him regretting that decision, based on how much he liked both openings and endings?

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


Wark Say posted:

Didn't the director mention something along the lines of him regretting that decision, based on how much he liked both openings and endings?

They were pretty good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIGEbitYqL0

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



I don't know if he regretted never having them, but there was one episode in arc 3 that had both the op and ed in it, and he said in an interview or something "I'm so glad we could finally have them both in one episode, they're both very good"

Fat and Useless
Sep 3, 2011

Not Thin and Useful





I don't even remember this one, like I'm aware that a first ending existed but I couldn't tell you a number of times it actually fired off other than "more than once?". Stay Alive at least happened a few times.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


Fat and Useless posted:

I don't even remember this one, like I'm aware that a first ending existed but I couldn't tell you a number of times it actually fired off other than "more than once?". Stay Alive at least happened a few times.

I only remember it happening like once, but the song played a lot at the end of episodes.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


Styx Helix evoked a certain feel that very few ED's do. It's not going to be part of my list of all-time favorite OP's and ED's, but it's pretty goddamn good. :)

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Conspiratiorist posted:

Taken out of context the Subaru and Emilia scene can be read that way, but ultimately the point of it is they're both wrong.

Subaru hosed up, and he tells it straight he hosed up, but makes the mistake of overlooking just how important the promise was to her, then hoping Emilia would understand his feelings even though he can't explain them, and lastly snapping and in desperation demanding she accept his behavior as is because he owes her at least that much in light of all he's done for her.

Meanwhile, Emilia was hoping Subaru would be her friend, and doesn't understand he loves her. Can't understand it. That someone would truly be willing to push themselves like this - even against her own wishes - just because of personal affection towards her is simply something she can't internalize. And ultimately decides that what's best, for Subaru, is to push aside the matter of his reasons and cut contact with him.

The importance of promises is also something that's a quirk of hers that she's nevertheless pushing onto him, even though Subaru has little way of knowing.

It's a failure of communication on both sides. The scene with Rem, then, serves as the exact opposite: both parties patiently listen as they take turns pouring out their hearts to each other.

...Nah. Emilia was right. He was just projecting stuff onto her. I mean, she doesn't hate him overall, but he was kinda being an rear end in a top hat right there at that exact moment.

Anyway, I liked the second half of the season tearing down Subaru and all that, but the whale sashimi was super boring and I'd have cut that out if I were the writer. It's not that this success doesn't matter, it's that it's not important enough to spend that much time on. Just give us the cliff notes, thanks.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Nah, the fact that Emilia isn't the perfect character that Subaru pretends she is really works both ways. For example, she isn't playing ball with the whole 'love' thing: she enjoys it, but chooses to respond by treating it as him just fooling around rather than addressing it.

She also gets depressed after their fight because she feels like a hypocrite - Subaru's clearly willing to risk life and limb for her because he thinks she's a wonderful person, but because it's uncomfortable to tackle that she starts demanding he explain himself while she's holding all her own cards close. When he pulled the dick move, that was just an excuse for her to disengage rather than taking another shot at addressing their issues while he was calmer. Emilia is intelligent and level-headed enough to know that was something she could've done, and the least she actually owes to a person who saved her life and she felt could be a friend, but again, that would've involved addressing the elephant in the room. It was easier to run away.

They were both really childish in that fight, and they know it, so they both feel horrible and at fault afterwards.

And taking out the White Whale is actually very important in the context of the larger story - aside from knocking down various dominoes that become relevant right away, it also showcases the scope of the accomplishments required to win favor for the nomination to the throne.

Plus, two episodes dedicated to an epic fantasy battle (with a third of that constituting a narratively-appropriate telling of Wilhelm's backstory) isn't at all intrusive in the 'action/resolution' part of a 13-episode story arc.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I don't feel like continuing this conversation, but I'll just say that think your strangely passionate defense of Subaru and the show is more creepy than interesting and makes me appreciate it less than I did before you responded.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Clarste posted:

I don't feel like continuing this conversation, but I'll just say that think your strangely passionate defense of Subaru and the show is more creepy than interesting and makes me appreciate it less than I did before you responded.

It's not a defense of Subaru; it's an analysis of Emilia.

I'm sorry you find uncomfortable to talk about a work beyond a surface reading of it :shrug:

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


I have no idea how you can see Emilia did anything wrong in that situation when from her perspective she was telling off a dude who was going in way too hard for her liking

EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.


Clarste posted:

Anyway, I liked the second half of the season tearing down Subaru and all that, but the whale sashimi was super boring and I'd have cut that out if I were the writer. It's not that this success doesn't matter, it's that it's not important enough to spend that much time on. Just give us the cliff notes, thanks.

Counterpoint, the White Whale is a Big Deal(tm) and how much goes into taking it down emphasizes that. Considering how long it took to deal with Betelguese what happened was indeed a cliff notes version :v:

Captain Invictus
Apr 5, 2005


Clever Betty

Well I've finally gotten around to watching the end of season 1, as I had only read up to the translated chapters of the manga(roughly right before the last five episodes of the anime). The current manga scanlations end at the point where Subaru is perched on the white whale's horn, and if there's a second season of the anime coming out, might as well catch up to where it will start. Though, christ, I hope the second season has a bigger budget than season one, the amount of times "person on mount(sometimes a clone-stamped Bad CG mount) tweens up and down to signify riding" or the amount of cutaways/hidden mouths to avoid having to animate them talking is nuts. Lots of off model stuff too. It's a shame because the voice acting is fantastic, but often the animation isn't totally up to snuff to match it. Still entertaining though.

The little animal-eared kids, I forget their names, their reaction to Betelgeuse just casually flying while in the fetal position is absolutely hilarious though.

The ending to the anime was good too. Sets it up so you're expecting something bad to happen at the last moment, but it didn't, which was nice. Though I'm sure season 2 will continue straight into something bad once more.

Also, I've mentioned it before, but one of my favorite aspects of this series is the witch's curse, the limitations it has placed on Subaru, and how he has continued to smartly weaponise it's drawbacks.

Edit:

Eej posted:

I have no idea how you can see Emilia did anything wrong in that situation when from her perspective she was telling off a dude who was going in way too hard for her liking
Yeah she was totally right to react that way in that scene, Subaru totally blew his cool and really came off terribly there, though I also absolutely feel for him too.

Captain Invictus fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Apr 7, 2019

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


EponymousMrYar posted:

Counterpoint, the White Whale is a Big Deal(tm) and how much goes into taking it down emphasizes that. Considering how long it took to deal with Betelguese what happened was indeed a cliff notes version :v:

One of the three big magic beasts in the world if I remember.

MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Apr 7, 2019

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Conspiratiorist posted:

It's not a defense of Subaru; it's an analysis of Emilia.

I'm sorry you find uncomfortable to talk about a work beyond a surface reading of it :shrug:

I said I didn't want to talk about this, but I guess I lied.

Saying "actually, both sides were in the wrong" is generally only used when one side is clearly in the wrong you don't want to admit that. In this case, Subaru had just been acting like a jerk in public before yelling at her that she didn't appreciate everything he'd gone through for her. Things that A) she didn't know about because they mostly happened in different timelines, and B) she never asked for. She reacted by... telling him that. That she owes him nothing because he's the one who one-sidedly pushed his feelings onto her. And that's right. She was 100% right. And Subaru needed someone to tell him that. He's generally sympathetic character because of everything he goes through, and it's sort of understandable that he'd react the way he did, but Subaru was absolutely 100% wrong and Emilia was 100% right. It wasn't a "miscommunication" or anything.

Emilia later feels guilty for hurting his feelings because literally anyone anyone would feel guilty about hurting a friend's feelings, but that doesn't mean she was wrong. In fact, the idea that a woman is responsible for handling a man's feelings with kid gloves is pretty fundamentally sexist.

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


Captain Invictus posted:


The little animal-eared kids, I forget their names, their reaction to Betelgeuse just casually flying while in the fetal position is absolutely hilarious though.

The Pearlbaton Triplets. Mimi, Hetaro, and Tivey.

Also apparently it is plot point that Petelgeuse's name is spelt that way instead of Betelgeuse according to the author.

Sazabi
Feb 15, 2014

A-MA-ZON!!

Hope that royal selection process does something. Anything. Anything at all next season.
Also what's under Al's helmet?
And if Mimi will get more burger?
Do the other two triplets enjoy burgers just as much?
These are the real s2 questions we should be asking.

Beasteh
Feb 12, 2012

I'M QUESTIONING MY EXISTENCE AND THIS IDIOT JUST WANTS TO PEE OFF A WALL



Everyone enjoys burgers.

e: V V V V :ohno:

Beasteh fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Apr 7, 2019

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Eej posted:

I have no idea how you can see Emilia did anything wrong in that situation when from her perspective she was telling off a dude who was going in way too hard for her liking

Because it addressed nothing and solved nothing, and at this point they've been living together for IIRC almost two months now? Beyond being indebted to his actions she's grown quite fond of him, so Subaru isn't just some stranger, either. He's legitimately become one of the few people she considers a friend, so that's simply not her perspective.

Emilia's perspective is that there's this guy who really likes her, who in the short time they've known each other has a done a lot for her, and who is open about himself in the general but clearly has some complicated circumstances behind him because he's far from home with nowhere to go but the space her social circle opened up for him, and has evidently also suffered a lot, which he tries to hide behind a bright personality. And she grew to like him back - almost immediately - but from the beginning it troubled her just how far he seems willing to go for her, and after his latest round of seemingly reckless behavior she can't overlook it anymore and so she has to ask what prompted it.

And he admits he was just being reckless. Acting out of impulse, due to his feelings for her.

So she pushes: why does he feel this way about her? Why is he so quick to endanger himself so much for her? She's trying to understand, so she'll have him explain his circumstances and then maybe she'll get what are these feelings he has for her and where they're coming from... and the mistakes start here: she gets upset when the answers aren't forthcoming, and angry even at the notion the affection really isn't for her because he doesn't really understand her. Of course, this is important to Emilia since she's always been treated differently because of what she is, and was hoping to find in Subaru someone who'd see her without bias.

But... what does Subaru actually know about Emilia? What does the audience know? About her past, about her goals? This is what I meant earlier with keeping her cards close, not playing ball - she's never given him anything to work with in that regard. Emilia is a smart and empathetic girl, so she can tell he's struggling to answer her, therefore when after demanding he explain himself she starts chastising him for not understanding the real her, that's a turn that ends up being both hypocritical and completely unfair.

Now, when Subaru snaps back and rudely demands that because she's indebted to him she should just accept it? Absolutely out of line, but it's ultimately Emilia who exercises her power and ends the discussion.

She declares that they'll put an end to those debts then, and rationalizing that by cutting him off then he'll be safer, free of the burden of trying to help her. He won't have to worry about her, and she won't have to worry about him. But again, that failed to address anything. That was her getting angry and giving herself an out.

In the end, tempers flared, they both got hurt and said things they shouldn't have and that they regretted immediately, and both are aware they should've known better. And it's something that ends up making true reconciliation hard even without all the horrorshow bullshit, because they both feel they were the ones who hosed up, but nevertheless can't stop feeling like they were somewhat justified anyway.

Clarste posted:

I said I didn't want to talk about this, but I guess I lied.

I don't much care for your "looks like you're a sexist" reading into my analysis.

You might not have noticed since Emilia is normally very level headed and caring, but during their exchange Subaru inadvertently hit on three nerves related to deep-seated insecurities of hers, and her reaction to that was anger, and that anger colored the responses that resulted in the discussion ending the way it did.

And you know what? As an outside observer, knowing what I do? I don't really blame her for reacting the way she did, and I actually think it'd be unfair to expect from Emilia the level of emotional maturity that'd have led to that discussion ending much more positively but, objectively speaking, just as Subaru could've done better by just shutting his drat mouth instead of trying to guilt trip a person who genuinely cares for him, Emilia could've also done better by either being more patient or being more honest about what was going on.

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Apr 7, 2019

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


I think Emilia was patient enough with Subaru considering she just embarrassed her in front of every one she's trying to impress to literally become queen and he has the status of kitchen aid at the time when he does acts up. She was right and he was being a fool. lol.

It solves him being possessive of her over a period of two weeks that comes off as overly complicated and with no clear motivation which can be creepy from a relationship standpoint. :sever:

There's a reason why Subaru needs to atone to everyone and Emilia doesn't have to do anything to atone or ask for forgiveness. (she didn't do anything wrong)

Brownieftw
Nov 23, 2011

Fluff master


Captain Invictus posted:



The little animal-eared kids, I forget their names, their reaction to Betelgeuse just casually flying while in the fetal position is absolutely hilarious though.

The cats are honestly the best part.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


The idea that Emilia is somehow at fault for not tiptoeing around Subaru's feelings is exactly what I'm saying is sexist. It's the double standard we have for women. Quite frankly he didn't deserve any respect at that exact moment, and Emilia should not be faulted for not being a literal saint who would forgive everything he ever does. Yes, she was starting to like him too over their short time together, but not so much as to forgive his asshat parade followed immediately by that outburst. Heck, even if they'd literally been married at that point I'd call that pretty reasonable grounds for a divorce.

Edit: They reconcile later entirely because Subaru has made steps to become a better person.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Apr 7, 2019

LostRook
Jun 7, 2013


Clarste posted:

The idea that Emilia is somehow at fault for not tiptoeing around Subaru's feelings is exactly what I'm saying is sexist. It's the double standard we have for women. Quite frankly he didn't deserve any respect at that exact moment, and Emilia should not be faulted for not being a literal saint who would forgive everything he ever does. Yes, she was starting to like him too over their short time together, but not so much as to forgive his asshat parade followed immediately by that outburst. Heck, even if they'd literally been married at that point I'd call that pretty reasonable grounds for a divorce.

Edit: They reconcile later entirely because Subaru has made steps to become a better person.

Toalpaz posted:

I think Emilia was patient enough with Subaru considering she just embarrassed her in front of every one she's trying to impress to literally become queen and he has the status of kitchen aid at the time when he does acts up. She was right and he was being a fool. lol.

It solves him being possessive of her over a period of two weeks that comes off as overly complicated and with no clear motivation which can be creepy from a relationship standpoint. :sever:

There's a reason why Subaru needs to atone to everyone and Emilia doesn't have to do anything to atone or ask for forgiveness. (she didn't do anything wrong)

When you're so afraid of sexism that you say someone is completely in the wrong for calling out racism.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


It kinda reminds me of a game I played recently and it left a similar vibe, storywise, but I think Emilia's decision in-story was definitely one that made sense. Like yeah, as the audience we know "Oh crap! This is going to bite everyone in the keister real bad!", but the characters don't know that, and I think the narrative made a good job of showing the moment in all its painful glory.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination


LostRook posted:

So is Satella the half-elf n-word?

LostRook posted:

When you're so afraid of sexism that you say someone is completely in the wrong for calling out racism.

:henget:

LostRook
Jun 7, 2013


I'm happy you are able to justify your prejudice.

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


Conspiratiorist posted:

Because it addressed nothing and solved nothing, and at this point they've been living together for IIRC almost two months now? Beyond being indebted to his actions she's grown quite fond of him, so Subaru isn't just some stranger, either. He's legitimately become one of the few people she considers a friend, so that's simply not her perspective.

Emilia's perspective is that there's this guy who really likes her, who in the short time they've known each other has a done a lot for her, and who is open about himself in the general but clearly has some complicated circumstances behind him because he's far from home with nowhere to go but the space her social circle opened up for him, and has evidently also suffered a lot, which he tries to hide behind a bright personality. And she grew to like him back - almost immediately - but from the beginning it troubled her just how far he seems willing to go for her, and after his latest round of seemingly reckless behavior she can't overlook it anymore and so she has to ask what prompted it.

And he admits he was just being reckless. Acting out of impulse, due to his feelings for her.

So she pushes: why does he feel this way about her? Why is he so quick to endanger himself so much for her? She's trying to understand, so she'll have him explain his circumstances and then maybe she'll get what are these feelings he has for her and where they're coming from... and the mistakes start here: she gets upset when the answers aren't forthcoming, and angry even at the notion the affection really isn't for her because he doesn't really understand her. Of course, this is important to Emilia since she's always been treated differently because of what she is, and was hoping to find in Subaru someone who'd see her without bias.

But... what does Subaru actually know about Emilia? What does the audience know? About her past, about her goals? This is what I meant earlier with keeping her cards close, not playing ball - she's never given him anything to work with in that regard. Emilia is a smart and empathetic girl, so she can tell he's struggling to answer her, therefore when after demanding he explain himself she starts chastising him for not understanding the real her, that's a turn that ends up being both hypocritical and completely unfair.

Now, when Subaru snaps back and rudely demands that because she's indebted to him she should just accept it? Absolutely out of line, but it's ultimately Emilia who exercises her power and ends the discussion.

She declares that they'll put an end to those debts then, and rationalizing that by cutting him off then he'll be safer, free of the burden of trying to help her. He won't have to worry about her, and she won't have to worry about him. But again, that failed to address anything. That was her getting angry and giving herself an out.

In the end, tempers flared, they both got hurt and said things they shouldn't have and that they regretted immediately, and both are aware they should've known better. And it's something that ends up making true reconciliation hard even without all the horrorshow bullshit, because they both feel they were the ones who hosed up, but nevertheless can't stop feeling like they were somewhat justified anyway.


I don't much care for your "looks like you're a sexist" reading into my analysis.

You might not have noticed since Emilia is normally very level headed and caring, but during their exchange Subaru inadvertently hit on three nerves related to deep-seated insecurities of hers, and her reaction to that was anger, and that anger colored the responses that resulted in the discussion ending the way it did.

And you know what? As an outside observer, knowing what I do? I don't really blame her for reacting the way she did, and I actually think it'd be unfair to expect from Emilia the level of emotional maturity that'd have led to that discussion ending much more positively but, objectively speaking, just as Subaru could've done better by just shutting his drat mouth instead of trying to guilt trip a person who genuinely cares for him, Emilia could've also done better by either being more patient or being more honest about what was going on.

Oh boy. You might want to take a step back. You're falling into exactly the same mindset that Subaru did and that Emilia specifically calls out at the end of their argument: you are creating a fictitious version of Emilia from the perspective of Subaru and arguing Subaru's side with that image in mind.

From Emilia's perspective, Subaru came into her life as a stranger who helped save her life for a reason that, as far as she knows, is entirely imagined. She helps him out in return by setting him up with her benefactor after he nearly dies in the processs, and while she certainly appreciates what he did for her she does not see them as friends at this point. But Subaru, on the other hand, is completely convinced of their friendship. Then, from Emilia's perspective, Subaru suddenly takes on pack of mabeasts threatening the nearby village and nearly dies once again. And while she certainly appreciates his heroism, once again she can't help but be cautious because there are so many unknowns regarding this stranger who's suddenly obsessed with her. That sense is exacerbated by the following events when Subaru becomes openly and fanatically obsessed with keeping her safe by her side to the point that he won't listen to anything she has to say and has started lashing out like a rabid dog at anyone who belittles her. It's at this point that she realizes that Subaru has deified her in his mind and that objectified version is what's driving his fanaticism. That coupled with his "fight" against Julius is what prompts her argument with him.

Personally, I think Emilia's handling of the argument is about as mature as anyone could have managed. Subaru was too broken to listen to reason and Emilia did not have the time or ability to talk him out of his sociopathic state. She politely but definitively backed out of their relationship and walked away.

It's certainly hard to blame Subaru for his broken state, but it does not excuse the fact that he turned into a peak Nice Guy for a while as a result. The entire second half was thematically about him learning to overcome his traumas and take back control of his mental state in preparation for him to apologize to Emilia for his mistakes. And he certainly comes around over the course of that arc. But there is no valid defense for Subaru's actions post arc 2, only excuses and explanations for how he got there.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Endorsed by:
Pentecoastal Elites!
fart_man_69!
Terminal autist!
Ruzihm!
Judakel!
Dixon Chisholm!
Nix Panicus!
Neurolimal!

ViggyNash posted:

It's certainly hard to blame Subaru for his broken state, but it does not excuse the fact that he turned into a peak Nice Guy for a while as a result. The entire second half was thematically about him learning to overcome his traumas and take back control of his mental state in preparation for him to apologize to Emilia for his mistakes. And he certainly comes around over the course of that arc. But there is no valid defense for Subaru's actions post arc 2, only excuses and explanations for how he got there.

There are also other reasons further elaborated in future content that make Conspiratiorist's evaluation of Emilia in this situation even less accurate, and IIRC he's one of the people who's read ahead?

But yeah, if anything Emilia is considerably nicer than you'd expect given her extremely bizarre perception of Subaru (likely at least partially due to her own poor self-esteem). She's only seeing the successful timelines, so she's not actually witnessing the excuse for his suffering and mental state (for the most part, though some things like getting stabbed or mauled by the mabeasts still end up in the "main timeline"). From her perspective Subaru is just very emotionally volatile and arbitrarily invested in her. Others are completely reasonable when they wonder if Subaru has ill intentions in Arc 2.

Only vaguely related, but I think part of why Re:Zero's romances don't do much for me is that both the love interests are in a position of emotional vulnerability and in need of "saving" to at least some extent. I've never found that particular form of romance very compelling, since it tends to lead to a dynamic between the protagonist and love interest that I don't really like. While Re:Zero does have this go both ways a bit with Rem (in that Subaru saves Rem and Rem also saves Subaru in turn), it's still a situation where Rem is very much hyperfocused on supporting Subaru (while Subaru still has a variety of goals unrelated to Rem). This is actually why I prefer Emilia to Rem; she has her own stuff going on even before Subaru's involvement. Though even then I'm not a fan of Subaru's romance with her (for several reasons, with one particularly big one standing out).

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

by Fluffdaddy


Sometimes I forget that whole deal with Emilia wrt her massive amounts of self-loathing. :(

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


ViggyNash posted:

Oh boy. You might want to take a step back. You're falling into exactly the same mindset that Subaru did and that Emilia specifically calls out at the end of their argument: you are creating a fictitious version of Emilia from the perspective of Subaru and arguing Subaru's side with that image in mind.

No, I have not, because all this time I've never argued for Subaru's actions. I've purposely avoided delving into the discussion on whether people have any sort of real responsibility towards those they care about, or the circumstances surrounding the situation at the palace.

There's just this weird and frankly very loaded default assumption going on that criticizing Emilia's response must be some kind of roundabout way to absolve Subaru of some culpability.

It's not. I'm judging Emilia's actions based on the context of her personal feelings and available information. Case in point, when Subaru finally apologizes to Emilia it has nothing to do with the points I've been discussing and is centered around coherently conveying his feelings and what he feels he did wrong. He's started to get an inkling of just how complicated the situation is (beyond the obvious), but he doesn't quite get it yet.

Ytlaya posted:

There are also other reasons further elaborated in future content that make Conspiratiorist's evaluation of Emilia in this situation even less accurate, and IIRC he's one of the people who's read ahead?

It's the opposite: reading the official material up to vol. 9 (when it surpasses the anime) and then further ahead when the Subaru/Emilia relationship actually becomes a story focus, made go back and look at their interactions throughout the story and try to recontextualize them, their fight in particular. Turns out it was all laid out there from the beginning, because of course it was. Re:Zero.

I mean, my initial reading of the events was that Subaru hosed up (with the understanding of why he'd react the way he did, but it was still wrong) and that was that. Emilia was just really sad but nevertheless handling the situation with a level-head. But then looking at it more carefully made me go "Oh... oh! So that's what's actually going on. Oh, this! Yeah, this is the moment she gets pissed."

It was mentioned earlier that the story places great emphasis on getting immersed in Subaru's perspective, and the fight works as a wake-up call for both him and the audience to get out of his head and start understanding other characters as people with their own goals and perspectives. This is true; the story arc is thematically built around it.

But wait, so why is Emilia then taken at face value here? The narrative tricks you by having her deliver a brutal takedown then immediately exit the stage, and distracting you with Subaru's self-loathing as the reminding impression of the exchange.

LostRook posted:

When you're so afraid of sexism that you say someone is completely in the wrong for calling out racism.

I've been sidestepping it because Subaru doesn't even attempt to justify himself when pressed for reasons, but yeah... there's some slight dissonance going on here.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Conspiratiorist posted:

I don't much care for your "looks like you're a sexist" reading into my analysis.

You might not have noticed since Emilia is normally very level headed and caring, but during their exchange Subaru inadvertently hit on three nerves related to deep-seated insecurities of hers, and her reaction to that was anger, and that anger colored the responses that resulted in the discussion ending the way it did.

And you know what? As an outside observer, knowing what I do? I don't really blame her for reacting the way she did, and I actually think it'd be unfair to expect from Emilia the level of emotional maturity that'd have led to that discussion ending much more positively but, objectively speaking, just as Subaru could've done better by just shutting his drat mouth instead of trying to guilt trip a person who genuinely cares for him, Emilia could've also done better by either being more patient or being more honest about what was going on.

I'm not sexist, I just hold women to a standard where they are only emotionally mature when they can control their anger and have infinite patience for men attempting to coerce them via guilt or other emotional manipulation.

Please take a step back and recognize this is an example of how people take female socialization for granted. The entire point of Nice Guys is that this kind of behaviour takes advantage of how women are expected to behave (Subaru is coming on really strong but he did all these great things for me so you know what even though I'm uncomfortable he's still a good guy so I have to look past the way he's being right now and accept how he feels for me). She was 1000% in the right and couldn't have done better because anything else would just be giving in to his behaviour. Whether she knew consciously or not the only way to put an end to Nice Guy behaviour is to give them a hard stop. Any kind of "trying to reason with them" or "accomodate their feelings" just gives them further opening in the future to continue their ways.

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Eej posted:

I'm not sexist, I just hold women to a standard where they are only emotionally mature when they can control their anger and have infinite patience for men attempting to coerce them via guilt or other emotional manipulation.

But that wasn't what got her angry - Subaru playing the debt card was actually the one part of the exchange she could understand and latch on, because she's a huge hypocrite who can't help the urge to be selfless yet contextualizes all relationships involving her as ordered give-and-take contracts.

Legitimately, one of the ways in which she could've done better is by telling Subaru to cut the bullshit, and lay down on him just how much he was loving with her and had been for the past several weeks. She can still tell him to gently caress off and never see her again afterwards. That'd have made her feel better by taking it off her chest, and allowed Subaru to get clue instead of having to slowly and haphazardly work out over the course of weeks afterwards just what Emilia's deal is.


Oh, that's absolutely a great way to rephrase it.
VVVV

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Apr 7, 2019

ninjewtsu
Oct 9, 2012



I think this conversation would feel a lot less gross if you leaned more into the "emilia's actions are a reflection of her personality and personal traumas, and a much more significant character moment than just a generic rejection of subaru being crazy" part and dropped the "emilia could've done better and should've been more mature in handling that situation" part

EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.


Wark Say posted:

It kinda reminds me of a game I played recently and it left a similar vibe, storywise, but I think Emilia's decision in-story was definitely one that made sense. Like yeah, as the audience we know "Oh crap! This is going to bite everyone in the keister real bad!", but the characters don't know that, and I think the narrative made a good job of showing the moment in all its painful glory.

Like the only mistake that Emilia made in that scene is that communication is a 2 way street and she's not exactly sending down as much traffic down her lane as she's asking for from Subaru but that's natural. And somewhat ameliorated by Subaru having taken the trust between them for granted and abusing it too much by that point.
To me what makes that scene great is that you can basically break it down to Subaru doing the standard dumb relationship thing and slapping Emilia up on a pedestal. Then interacting with Emilia on a Pedestal instead of actually getting to know her (hence the whole 'that version that lives within you' bit) only in this case, that 'Emilia within him' wasn't just his fantasy, but also amalgamated from the Emilia's he's spent time with in previous resets.

And even with all those resets he still didn't know as much about her as he should have with how he was acting. There were clues he could have picked up on but didn't, (understandable with all of the stress dying and coming back put on him) and he took things for granted. And much like when he's done that before, it bit him in the butt.

It's another part of what makes his power interesting (and sucky.)

ninjewtsu posted:

I think this conversation would feel a lot less gross if you leaned more into the "emilia's actions are a reflection of her personality and personal traumas, and a much more significant character moment than just a generic rejection of subaru being crazy" part and dropped the "emilia could've done better and should've been more mature in handling that situation" part

Mistakes were made. That's good storytelling and character building because people make mistakes. Often really, really dumb ones. It's humanizing.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

Endorsed by:
Pentecoastal Elites!
fart_man_69!
Terminal autist!
Ruzihm!
Judakel!
Dixon Chisholm!
Nix Panicus!
Neurolimal!

Conspiratiorist posted:

It's the opposite: reading the official material up to vol. 9 (when it surpasses the anime) and then further ahead when the Subaru/Emilia relationship actually becomes a story focus, made go back and look at their interactions throughout the story and try to recontextualize them, their fight in particular. Turns out it was all laid out there from the beginning, because of course it was. Re:Zero.

I mean, my initial reading of the events was that Subaru hosed up (with the understanding of why he'd react the way he did, but it was still wrong) and that was that. Emilia was just really sad but nevertheless handling the situation with a level-head. But then looking at it more carefully made me go "Oh... oh! So that's what's actually going on. Oh, this! Yeah, this is the moment she gets pissed."

It was mentioned earlier that the story places great emphasis on getting immersed in Subaru's perspective, and the fight works as a wake-up call for both him and the audience to get out of his head and start understanding other characters as people with their own goals and perspectives. This is true; the story arc is thematically built around it.

But wait, so why is Emilia then taken at face value here? The narrative tricks you by having her deliver a brutal takedown then immediately exit the stage, and distracting you with Subaru's self-loathing as the reminding impression of the exchange.

I'm pretty sure you're missing the thing I was intending to allude to, but I don't want even indirectly hint at future content in this thread (and you don't have PMs).

Grouchio
Aug 31, 2014

*The Entire John Galt Speech*


*Nevermind*

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Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


MonsterEnvy posted:

I would say more the Sauron then Satan equivalent.

The evil Dark Lord who meanced the whole world, but is currently largely dormant, though their servants are still causing trouble.

I mean... Sauron basically is Satan, right down to being a fallen being of light.

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