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Mr. Locke
Jul 28, 2010


Heithinn Grasida posted:

How many super low offense teams are there that you could really stumble into? Hawkeye does at least reasonable damage in all his classes except maybe nightblade, which could use a buff. It might even be fine if max HP reduction worked properly on bosses. Kevin does good damage in every class, as does Angela. For Charlotte, only L/L doesnít really contribute much, the other classes are at least moderately competent damage dealers. Riesz and Duran in their light classes both lack damage, but I think that should be changed for Vanadys. That means to have a team with really poor damage output, youíd need to run something like Light Duran, Light/Light Charlotte and Light Riesz, which should be pretty obviously overlapping in roles. Youíd still be pretty much unkillable with that kind of party, though.

I think aside from Angela ending up really overpowered, if you nerfed or removed most of the broken chain abilities, removed the Beizer items, or at least made them into rare consumables, and nerfed or somehow limited healing items, the classes would end up reasonably well balanced.

From there you just have to make it so the strongest damage parties donít just kill everything before it can fight back. Even if you nerf damage dealers a lot (which would turn off a lot of people who just canít handle seeing numbers go down), I donít think you can accomplish that without buffing enemy stats in the late game.

The game just needs more ways to up the challenge besides numbers. Even for the first half of the game when most characters CAN'T just delete enemies from the field (IE, anyone not Angela post-Full Metal Haggar) you just don't take damage at all most fights because most enemies are easy to avoid and pack very obvious tells. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, just the cost of the game becoming a fairly straightforward action RPG. Juicing their stats wouldn't do much in that world because the only time I wasn't getting the No Damage XP bonus in like 95% of random fights was Wound Magic Angela since self-damage counts against that.

That said, giving enemies access to more interesting stuff without delving into old SFC SD3 fuckery like instant counterattacks could be cool. It's really weird that most enemies in the end game are usually limited to the same one or two easy-to-dodge spells and very slow melee attacks instead of anything picking up some new tricks compared to Chapter 2 enemies.. Some of the bosses get some fancy tricks but trash mobs never get more interesting outside the weird exception like the final stage shapeshifters, and that's probably the biggest thing that holds the moment to moment combat back.

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Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




I really like that you only take serious damage when you gently caress up dodging an attack, I just wish their attacks had more variety than the FF14-style "there's a circle that fills up and don't stand in it"

Crystalgate
Dec 26, 2012


Arkeus posted:

It feels like modding up enemy health would also help less offensive oriented party because it means their schitck would actually matter. Nightblade instant kill will be relevant, Duran's heals or Charlotte's would help, and Vanadys would probably look a bit better too?
Yes, but then battles risk taking too long to be fun instead. Maybe if you combined it with making less battles overall? I do suspect that would lead to another problem though.

Anyway, I have a question; does leaf/moon saber work with class strikes? If it does, leaf saber + class strike sounds like a good full MP restore.

Phantasium
Dec 27, 2012



https://twitter.com/shmuplations/st...295702143332354

quote:

óTurning now to the music, Iíve heard some interesting stories. Is it true Ishii asked for one of the songs to sound like a pro wrestlerís entrance theme?

Ishii: The first boss theme Shimomura created was different from what I was imagining. I wanted something with a bit more vigor and energy.

Shimomura: Being a fantasy game, I thought something wistful and nostalgic would help unify everything, so I was honestly a little baffled when Ishii told me to make it like wrestling music. (laughs)

Phantasium fucked around with this message at 16:00 on May 26, 2020

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

"No simple human characters" is an interesting idea and it's obvious on reflection, although I did not notice at the time.

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


That interview is really lovely, just like the game.

For damage purposes, what stat do Hawkeye's "diversion" skills use? If it's Luck, I'm starting to think I beefed it a bit going for Ninja Master Hawk and Star Lancer Riesz.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

BRING CORPRO



Poque posted:

That interview is really lovely, just like the game.

For damage purposes, what stat do Hawkeye's "diversion" skills use? If it's Luck, I'm starting to think I beefed it a bit going for Ninja Master Hawk and Star Lancer Riesz.

Intelligence. Respeccing stat points is kinda trivial though. Just go to Beiser and spend some cash at the Night Market.

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


Captain Oblivious posted:

Intelligence. Respeccing stat points is kinda trivial though. Just go to Beiser and spend some cash at the Night Market.

Oh, I just meant that if they went off of Luck that none of Riesz's stat ups would be of any use for him. If her Mental Boost will work on him then I'm golden, since it'll also benefit Sage Charlotte.

Kyrosiris
May 24, 2006

You try to be happy when everyone is summoning you everywhere to "be their friend".



Yeah, Ninja Master Hawkeye is basically Angela With Debuffs.

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


It's super weird going from a playthrough where I controlled just a straight-up fighter/healer in Liege Duran to controlling my elemental diversion Hawk. I still run in and fight in basically every battle, but I can see how strong the moves are gonna be when I can AOE them (and go beyond 15 in any stat). I get the feeling that if I can do my level 38 class change early in the Benevodon cycle, I'm gonna wipe the floor with Earth/Wind/Water/Fire given I'll have Ninja Master Hawk's moves, Sage Charlotte's sabers, and Star Lancer Riesz's stat boosts.

Probably gonna go BOYS TRIP for my all-star NG+ run after this, controlling Warrior Monk Kevin and bringing along Rogue Hawkeye and Edelfrei Duran.

Mega64
May 23, 2008

~ it's our ~

~ final fantasy ~


(just don't ask them about "the after years")



Grimey Drawer

Dicks Out for Karl

Kyrosiris
May 24, 2006

You try to be happy when everyone is summoning you everywhere to "be their friend".



Poque posted:

It's super weird going from a playthrough where I controlled just a straight-up fighter/healer in Liege Duran to controlling my elemental diversion Hawk. I still run in and fight in basically every battle, but I can see how strong the moves are gonna be when I can AOE them (and go beyond 15 in any stat). I get the feeling that if I can do my level 38 class change early in the Benevodon cycle, I'm gonna wipe the floor with Earth/Wind/Water/Fire given I'll have Ninja Master Hawk's moves, Sage Charlotte's sabers, and Star Lancer Riesz's stat boosts.

Probably gonna go BOYS TRIP for my all-star NG+ run after this, controlling Warrior Monk Kevin and bringing along Rogue Hawkeye and Edelfrei Duran.

Frankly Dirt Diversion+ dickstomps anything that doesn't have the sense to be immune to Earth damage. It's awesome.

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


Love to hear it. After class change I'll respec and max out Luck and Int first, I think. Then whatever gives me skills I'm after.

Extremely annoying that the Tomato Man chain skill doesn't work on these moves though!

Archduke Frantz Fanon
Sep 7, 2004

Chinchillin Imperial Style

Love of mana and obsidian power make this game so easy. Can you get class 3 if you meet the requirements by the time of the normal first class change?

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



Out of curiosity what party would be the absolute most broken in terms of damage?

I figured it was all dark Kevin/Angela/Charlotte right?

Heithinn Grasida
Mar 27, 2005

...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...



ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

Out of curiosity what party would be the absolute most broken in terms of damage?

I figured it was all dark Kevin/Angela/Charlotte right?

I think youíd have to focus on either Kevin or Angela as your main damage dealer. Angela probably ends up stronger in the end game, but Kevin is better for at least the first 2/3s of the game and remains really strong up to the end.

For a Kevin team, you need Edelfrei ó Attack Saber 1 and 2 and possibly Flourish are just too good to give up ó so Fatal Fist (D/D Kevin), Edelfrei (D/L Duran) and Dragon Master (D/L Riesz), Fenris Knight (D/D Riesz), Ninja Master (D/L Hawkeye) or maybe even Nomad (L/L Hawkeye) are likely best.

For Angela, Magus, Liege, Dragon Master or Fenris Knight is probably the best damage. If you donít use night market items, you should take Star Lancer instead of Fenris Knight, since Star Lancer can both buff and debuff magic.

Personally I think Kevin feels stronger overall in spite of what people say, but I donít like pure casters and I havenít tried Magus.

Heithinn Grasida
Mar 27, 2005

...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...



Crap, wrong thread.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.

Fun Shoe

So despite declaring I wasn't going to bother with platinum, I find myself only 2 trophies away so I'm going for it. Doing third playthru now and this remake has a lot of issues which bother me. The load times are obnoxious and numerous due to all of the backtracking. The worst offender is taking 15 minutes to switch classes for all three characters because of all the back n forth.

Too many of the character builds are technically viable but sort of unfun to play. As mentioned many times by others they were way too generous with healing items which makes support characters a hindrance because damage trumps all. Castable buffs are fine for bosses but useless for everything else, you're better off just picking builds with auras whenever possible.

Your buffs seemingly don't persist between fights which makes some character builds kind of useless outside of bosses because normal enemies don't last long even on hard. The game lacks any sort of challenge outside of a first playthru and 2 bosses, one of which is optional. This really needed some sort of challenge mode or something for your godmode characters in New Game Plus.

Anyways I'm going to finish out today with the platinum and I enjoyed my first playthru but I can't see myself ever going back to this. Which is fine, I got my moneys worth. Just a shame that they didn't get a bit more budget because they could've really fleshed this out a bit. I hope the fact that it sold decently will mean better things for future Square remakes.

MH Knights
Aug 4, 2007



Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:

Love of mana and obsidian power make this game so easy. Can you get class 3 if you meet the requirements by the time of the normal first class change?

You can if you have the class change items. I had over 50 ???? seeds when I started my first NG+ so that harpy boss got an unpleasant surprise.

Crystalgate
Dec 26, 2012


The Gunslinger posted:

Too many of the character builds are technically viable but sort of unfun to play. As mentioned many times by others they were way too generous with healing items which makes support characters a hindrance because damage trumps all. Castable buffs are fine for bosses but useless for everything else, you're better off just picking builds with auras whenever possible.

Your buffs seemingly don't persist between fights which makes some character builds kind of useless outside of bosses because normal enemies don't last long even on hard. The game lacks any sort of challenge outside of a first playthru and 2 bosses, one of which is optional. This really needed some sort of challenge mode or something for your godmode characters in New Game Plus.

I personally think that a lot of skills just aren't very suitable for an action game. Riesz buffs and debuffs in particular seem more suited for a game where you cannot avoid enemy attacks and need to get the numbers on your side instead. Having the buffs last between fights would make things better, but a lot of the skills just weren't designed for an action heavier game than Seiken Densetsu 3 originally was.

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


I wish you could pick and choose what carries forward in a NG+ - it'd be awesome to have selectors for levels/lucre/items/chains. Playing through as a way-overleveled god is boring as poo poo, but it'd be clutch to be able to carry forward any ??? seeds, Lucky Find II, and have a toggle for level grinding with Love of Mana. Also let me use costumes from the older files too, dammit! I'm worried about my Warrior Monk Kevin being carried away by a gust of wind in those enormous pants.

I'm halfway through the benevodons in under five hours since Kevin started at level 76.

Also I'm loving some of the dialogue I'm getting in my BOYS TRIP party, in the desert Hawk was lamenting having to travel with so many sweaty men.

ExcessBLarg!
Aug 31, 2001


In Secret of Mana is it worth grinding out weapon levels or not really if you don't regularly charge to high levels?

I know you're supposed to grind magic, but so far I've also been keeping all weapons up on all three party members, but after level 5 it's taking much longer to do that.

Blackbelt Bobman
Jul 17, 2004

I don't need friends! I've been
manipulatin' you since the start!
All so I can something,
something X-Blade!




Each character has weapons they specialize in and iirc gain levels quicker. You should really only level up a few weapons for each character.

Phantasium
Dec 27, 2012



the only reason to worry about those is for charge attacks but literally every time i bring up charge attacks i get the impression everyone hates using them and never bothers.

maybe the levels actually give you a bonus to damage, i've never looked it up and it's never been necessary imo.

but also i get away with maybe leveling one set of spells through a playthrough so i'm probably wrong.

Good Soldier Svejk
Jul 5, 2010

Great times call for great men


Nap Ghost

Is the Secret of Mana remake still widely considered to be garbage or is it worth trying out at a good price?

Melomane Mallet
Oct 11, 2012

I'm bad; I'm just not born that way.

Poque posted:

I wish you could pick and choose what carries forward in a NG+ - it'd be awesome to have selectors for levels/lucre/items/chains. Playing through as a way-overleveled god is boring as poo poo, but it'd be clutch to be able to carry forward any ??? seeds, Lucky Find II, and have a toggle for level grinding with Love of Mana. Also let me use costumes from the older files too, dammit! I'm worried about my Warrior Monk Kevin being carried away by a gust of wind in those enormous pants.

Maybe something like the Tales series Grade shop? Only similar thing i know of.

Phantasium
Dec 27, 2012



Good Soldier Svejk posted:

Is the Secret of Mana remake still widely considered to be garbage or is it worth trying out at a good price?

idk because i never thought it was garbage. the really bad bugs it had at launch should be gone at least (i never really tested it because i got the plat before they were done fixing it)

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

Down the Rabbit Hole.


Good Soldier Svejk posted:

Is the Secret of Mana remake still widely considered to be garbage or is it worth trying out at a good price?

If you don't have a Switch to play the original version with the Mana Collection, then yeah, it's worth trying out for a decent price. However, change the music in the options to the SNES soundtrack and never listen to the remixed versions because it's awful.

EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.


The combat in Trials isn't quite as involved enough to require a grade shop. The XP bonii are incentive enough to do well by themselves really. A bunch of toggles for what you want to carry over would do just fine.

ExcessBLarg! posted:

In Secret of Mana is it worth grinding out weapon levels or not really if you don't regularly charge to high levels?

I know you're supposed to grind magic, but so far I've also been keeping all weapons up on all three party members, but after level 5 it's taking much longer to do that.
It's only worth it on the Boy simply because he doesn't have any magic to grind (and he's decent at every weapon.) The only reason to get all 8 up to max is for the achievement in the remake.

sigher posted:

If you don't have a Switch to play the original version with the Mana Collection, then yeah, it's worth trying out for a decent price. However, change the music in the options to the SNES soundtrack and never listen to the remixed versions because it's awful.
Unless you like the remixes. I like some of the remixes

Blackbelt Bobman
Jul 17, 2004

I don't need friends! I've been
manipulatin' you since the start!
All so I can something,
something X-Blade!




Iíd recommend the remake over the original just because itís way less janky. They fixed most of the hitboxes so they make sense, attacks say ďmissĒ if the enemy evades/blocks it instead of it saying nothing, you can have a couple of shortcuts for spells, the voice acting is cute and the inn scenes that flesh out the story are fun. Itís fundamentally the same as the original, plus you can change the music back to the original if you donít like the new versions.

Mr. Locke
Jul 28, 2010


The SoM remake is Fine. It sucks because it's a wasted opportunity because Secret of Mana is one of those games that really, really, really could use a full-on update and gameplay-wise it's almost entirely a straight port (And most of the gameplay changes that do occur are oversights in the new engine.) But a lot of people were 'this is so much worse then the SNES version' and, really, the game a very, very close mechanical remake of the SNES version with a better soundtrack and sidegrade graphics and it turns out most people just forgot how Secret of Mana actually played.

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


Blackbelt Bobman posted:

Each character has weapons they specialize in and iirc gain levels quicker. You should really only level up a few weapons for each character.

Is this new in the remake? Cuz it's definitely not the case in the original

Blackbelt Bobman
Jul 17, 2004

I don't need friends! I've been
manipulatin' you since the start!
All so I can something,
something X-Blade!




Poque posted:

Is this new in the remake? Cuz it's definitely not the case in the original

I thought it was but maybe not? Like I thought that the Boy did better with the sword, Girl with the knuckles, Sprite with the bow and boomerang, etc

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


Blackbelt Bobman posted:

I thought it was but maybe not? Like I thought that the Boy did better with the sword, Girl with the knuckles, Sprite with the bow and boomerang, etc

I don't know damage formulas so it's possible that the sword/axe rely on strength (which would be better for the Boy) and others rely on different stats like agility, making them better for the others. But the leveling thing was equal across weapons and characters (at least in the original).

I really should play the remake for as much as I love the original. My biggest concern was that the mechanics that allow me to basically sleepwalk through the original would be changed just slightly enough to make it tough to play, but it sounds like it might be exactly my jam.

Mr. Locke
Jul 28, 2010


I don't believe characters had any weapon preferences in the original. All the weapons run off the same stat, which is highest on the Boy, then the Girl, then the Sprite, and they all gain weapon XP at the same rate. This generally means the Sprite and the Girl would generally prefer to be the ones with high-power weapons on the occasion high-defense enemies show up if they want to actually do damage with attacks, although the real answer is the strongest weapon goes on who's player controlled at the time because relying on the AI to attack is a non-starter.

I know in the way back everyone in the group called dibs on weapons, with the Hero getting the Sword and Axe cause he was a strong lad (and the Whip if he ever needed a ranged weapon,) the one of us playing the girl got the Spear and Javelin cause they had the coolest charge attacks and they would never attack without charging fully, and the Sprite got the Bow and Boomerang because he was fragile and his player was the youngest of us and tended to play scared. But mechanically there's little difference among the three characters when it comes to weapon wielding.

Phantasium
Dec 27, 2012



I got really lazy at some point in my playthroughs and just started giving Popoi and Purim the axe and the whip so I could use those weapons when they're required by just hitting select.

Poque posted:

My biggest concern was that the mechanics that allow me to basically sleepwalk through the original would be changed just slightly enough to make it tough to play, but it sounds like it might be exactly my jam.

Lol no, the game is even easier now. Your party members dutifully line up to attack in sequence since their AI is no longer garbage so that you can lockdown most enemies in the game, and the turns are faster and the spell shortcuts mean you can just have healing ready at a moments notice.

I remember a lot of people really salty about the beginning of the forest to get to Spiky Tiger because the Chobin Hoods could aim in 8 directions now but the rest of the game is trivial.

Shoenin
May 29, 2013

Everynight I wake up Screaming.
(and beating the dragon)

Heithinn Grasida posted:

Personally I think Kevin feels stronger overall in spite of what people say, but I donít like pure casters and I havenít tried Magus.

In terms of overall and just beating the game faster, Kevin is better at that. Speedruns seem to use the exact same team SFC speedruns do, except Riesz is Light now instead of Dark.
But T3 Angela is so stupidly ahead of everyone else that its much more noticeable, including Kevin. Melee just doesnt compare with how insane Magic can be endgame. But Kevin, Edelfrei and Dark Riesz try.

If you want your endgame team to just utterly smash anything, then yeah Angela is better. But if you want to smash poo poo throughout the game, Kevin is better for that.

Blackbelt Bobman posted:

I thought it was but maybe not? Like I thought that the Boy did better with the sword, Girl with the knuckles, Sprite with the bow and boomerang, etc

Dont think there was much if any difference with what weapons each used. The setup you described is what Square seems to push though.
Purim being a punchgirl is neat cute and hot so im totally ok with that descision.

Blackbelt Bobman
Jul 17, 2004

I don't need friends! I've been
manipulatin' you since the start!
All so I can something,
something X-Blade!




Phantasium posted:

I got really lazy at some point in my playthroughs and just started giving Popoi and Purim the axe and the whip so I could use those weapons when they're required by just hitting select.


Lol no, the game is even easier now. Your party members dutifully line up to attack in sequence since their AI is no longer garbage so that you can lockdown most enemies in the game, and the turns are faster and the spell shortcuts mean you can just have healing ready at a moments notice.

I remember a lot of people really salty about the beginning of the forest to get to Spiky Tiger because the Chobin Hoods could aim in 8 directions now but the rest of the game is trivial.

To be fair it is bullshit that they can shoot in 8 directions, that part is actually fairly difficult.

Dance Officer
May 4, 2017

It would be awesome if we could dance!


So, I realize this comes completely out of left field, but I've been playing Sword of Mana, have been dumping all of my level ups into sage, but none of my spells do more than 1 damage against bosses. Is this normal and sage just a terrible idea to pick up?

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Alxprit
Feb 7, 2015

A lady after my own Soul-Heart.

This is normal and the only reason to pick a magic focused class set is for the effect that makes healing light stronger. You can grind magic levels decently well by repeatedly using them on bosses if you want, or if you find the right rare elemental cyclops, power-leveling elements on them is absurdly quick. But I wouldn't worry about it, weapons are generally better in most cases excepting monsters that can't be hurt by them, especially after reforging them with various materials.

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