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TheRat
Aug 30, 2006



Nasgate posted:

That and the clownshoes poo poo like Ana body blocking notail to death.

That might be the best BM I've ever seen

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Sampatrick
Sep 26, 2012


Idk, it seems disingenuous to me when the people rooting for Kuku or Ceb to go home are the same people rooting for Mason to go to TI

scuz
Aug 29, 2003

You can't be angry ALL the time!






Fun Shoe

Sampatrick posted:

Idk, it seems disingenuous to me when the people rooting for Kuku or Ceb to go home are the same people rooting for Mason to go to TI
:hai:

All the players have some variety of brainworms, just let em play a video game for hundreds of thousands of dollars or boycott the whole ordeal if that's truly a concern.

Thom and the Heads
Oct 27, 2010

Farscape is actually pretty cool.


ahh sitting down to watch my EG boys play team secret - hope they manage to at least make it interesting. now to take a big sip of coffee

scuz
Aug 29, 2003

You can't be angry ALL the time!






Fun Shoe

Watching that series atm too and enjoying Trent on the mic, he's the best.

Its Rinaldo
Aug 13, 2010

CODS BINCH


Watching the Late Game and what happened to Wheat?

resistentialism
Aug 13, 2007



Its Rinaldo posted:

Watching the Late Game and what happened to Wheat?

https://twitter.com/djWHEAT/status/1162807472895270912

Its Rinaldo
Aug 13, 2010

CODS BINCH


:( oh man hope he's ok

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008



Sampatrick posted:

Idk, it seems disingenuous to me when the people rooting for Kuku or Ceb to go home are the same people rooting for Mason to go to TI

I believe in all players being able to be forgiven if they get any punishments. I think Mason is really funny, and heís definitely chilled out way more since his hosed up days circa 2014-2016, still his behavior back then was bad and Iím not defending it. I just think heís come a long way from that.

This is a new crop of racism that came through, and you had a lot of people arguing in bad faith about why Valve was in the wrong or how valve hosed up like Admiralbulldog just constantly saying complete nonsense and acting like a child on stream to his huge audience. The Kuku situation was awful and his punishment was justified, the Chinese though they stick together and they donít forget. When iceiceice dropped the n word in a super derogatory manor, it was not only really disappointing, but the communityís response was also really disappointing (a lot of people arguing that ďactually saying the n word casually is normal in SEA and itís not racist because itís not in the USĒ which is complete bullshit). Ceb argued initially that he was baited into his racist thing, and didnít really apologize. This set off the CIS community. The MC thing was unprompted but was given a very quick response/punishment because Liquid does not gently caress around.

TheRat
Aug 30, 2006



Mason was horrific at the last summit. So bad, in fact, that people wrote articles about how bad he was and how shameful it was for the summit to have hired him.

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008



TheRat posted:

Mason was horrific at the last summit. So bad, in fact, that people wrote articles about how bad he was and how shameful it was for the summit to have hired him.

Only one person wrote an article

E: to add to this, bulldog was even more embarrassing imo at official Valve events and then threw his own tantrums on his own stream.

TheRat
Aug 30, 2006



Oh that's all good then

TheRat
Aug 30, 2006



And yes, bulldog is a loving idiot I don't think anyone is saying otherwise

Jerk McJerkface
Jan 16, 2004

LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX LINUX



Soiled Meat

Nasgate posted:

Yeah, it's drat near impossible to prevent OG from getting a good team drafted. You pretty much have to give yourself the best draft you can and then play better. It's why OG games are so fun to watch. That and the clownshoes poo poo like Ana body blocking notail to death.

when was this

EorayMel
May 29, 2015


Every Gamer You Like Is Actually A Piece Of poo poo

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008


defending mason in tyool 2019

Dunite
Oct 12, 2013


EorayMel posted:

Every Gamer You Like Is Actually A Piece Of poo poo

Puppey???!!????

Or Insania?

Knowlue
Nov 11, 2012

I could eat a sea cucumber


Dunite posted:

Puppey???!!????

Or Insania?

There's enough bad stuff about Puppey out there. Make your mind about it

TheRat
Aug 30, 2006



The President of Estonia certainly has his skeletons

Nasgate
Jun 7, 2011




Game 2 vs newbee

Its Rinaldo
Aug 13, 2010

CODS BINCH


EorayMel posted:

Every Gamer You Like Is Actually A Piece Of poo poo

Not Universe though :(?

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008



The puppey / midone interview honestly paints puppey as a psycho lmao

Knowlue
Nov 11, 2012

I could eat a sea cucumber


The REAL Goobusters posted:

The puppey / midone interview honestly paints puppey as a psycho lmao

Link?

Nasgate
Jun 7, 2011


EorayMel posted:

Every Gamer You Like Is Actually A Piece Of poo poo

I assume there's some dumb poo poo Big Daddy Notail has done. But I still adore the dude.

Sampatrick
Sep 26, 2012


The REAL Goobusters posted:

I believe in all players being able to be forgiven if they get any punishments. I think Mason is really funny, and he’s definitely chilled out way more since his hosed up days circa 2014-2016, still his behavior back then was bad and I’m not defending it. I just think he’s come a long way from that.

This is a new crop of racism that came through, and you had a lot of people arguing in bad faith about why Valve was in the wrong or how valve hosed up like Admiralbulldog just constantly saying complete nonsense and acting like a child on stream to his huge audience. The Kuku situation was awful and his punishment was justified, the Chinese though they stick together and they don’t forget. When iceiceice dropped the n word in a super derogatory manor, it was not only really disappointing, but the community’s response was also really disappointing (a lot of people arguing that “actually saying the n word casually is normal in SEA and it’s not racist because it’s not in the US” which is complete bullshit). Ceb argued initially that he was baited into his racist thing, and didn’t really apologize. This set off the CIS community. The MC thing was unprompted but was given a very quick response/punishment because Liquid does not gently caress around.

Is it really a new crop of racism or are people just calling other people out on the poo poo that they've been saying since DotA started? Anyway, I do agree with you that there should be a higher degree of professionalism expected from pro players but at the same time I do think it's also pretty common that people get trolled or have their games ruined by people and I can understand how that can cause someone to be toxic. Iceiceice's racist statement is specifically unlike what other pro players have said because it was entirely unprompted. Statements like iceiceice's should be punished severely but, although pub statements should probably be punished, idk if they should be punished super severely because there definitely are a lot of game ruiners in high MMR pubs and that poo poo suuuuucks.

Also, I really don't believe that Mason actually turned over a new leaf because you can still find him doing stuff like calling other players beaners last year. He's just better at hiding it now. Honestly he always comes across as a chud hiding his power level to me.

Sampatrick
Sep 26, 2012


Nasgate posted:

I assume there's some dumb poo poo Big Daddy Notail has done. But I still adore the dude.

He said some homophobic poo poo at a summit iirc

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010




Sampatrick posted:

Is it really a new crop of racism or are people just calling other people out on the poo poo that they've been saying since DotA started?

It's definitely stuff that has always been there

Kibner
Oct 21, 2008

#1 Pelican Fan


Nasgate posted:

Game 2 vs newbee

Even better is Ana using an emote and saying "my bad".

e:

Its Rinaldo
Aug 13, 2010

CODS BINCH


Wait my man Matu isn't on Liquid anymore???

Sampatrick
Sep 26, 2012


I still can't get over how bad that TNC game 2 draft was. There was absolutely no way for them to ever win the game; they just get split pushed into oblivion and they can't ever stop it.

Knowlue
Nov 11, 2012

I could eat a sea cucumber


Its Rinaldo posted:

Wait my man Matu isn't on Liquid anymore???

they kicked him a few weeks before the last major of the season

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



I think the monitoring of the scene is something that is incredibly complicated, and as such will probably never come to fruition without people doing the whistleblowing like what happened with Ceb. Valve have made it clear that they aren't going to lay down any concrete rules, so everything is going to have to be case-by-case, but even then I think that it's impossible to try and monitor this kind of stuff with any consistency.

People clowned on me for "defending" iceiceice but it's a more complicated situation than I think people give it credit for. Like, obviously he knew it was a bad word, but I'm not sure if he knew it was any worse than saying gently caress or something, which people say all the time. I used to work as an English tutor for ESL college students. One girl from Serbia said the n-word and I was like woah what the gently caress you can't say that, and her response was "chill the gently caress out, I'm just joking." And it wasn't like oh, she only felt comfortable saying that because you were a white person, there was a black guy there with us and she still said it with total confidence. Do you punish her exactly the same as someone from America who has a clearly different knowledge about the social acceptability of using that word? Same thing with n0tail saying stuff at the Summit - the things he says were so normal in America ten years ago that we needed to have television PSAs asking people to not say "that's so gay" as an insult. poo poo, I know lots of gay people that STILL call things "gay as gently caress."

Part of the fun of Dota is how there's so much personality in the players, and the most well-received events have always been poo poo like The Summit where the players were at the forefront. Up to this point, we've been in a no-rules scenario where anything goes. While I fundamentally agree with the Kuku punishment, the reason so many people disliked the situation is because Valve went from absolutely hands-off to suddenly enforcing non-existent rules, which I would have been okay with if they had proceeded to lay out some sort of groundwork for a code of behavior with correlating punishment guidelines (if you do x then y happens), but then they also didn't do that. Then, by creating no rules but also enforcing punishment on Ceb for his incident, they've essentially solidified the system of "no punishment unless someone raises a fuss on Reddit, then punish based on how mad people are," which is not how a functional Code of Conduct should work. The things Mason has said are way worse than what, say, Kuku has said, where's Mason's punishment? Mason isn't a pro player so they can't fine him, but if they banned Rawdota for eight years for being a game-ruiner and account buyer, why can't they punish Mason? The unfortunate reason is because not enough people have complained about it yet.

The core of the issue is what I mentioned above - laying down any sort of definitive conduct guide is only going to cause more problems because of how complicated the situation is. In a way, it makes the most sense to evaluate each situation case-by-case, but when the ones who decide which players should be evaluated for punishment is Reddit, which is functionally the case, that's a bad system. But, that's the system that Valve want. The other alternative they would have is to go the way of the Overwatch League, where players are totally under the control of Blizzard and saying something even negative about the game, much less racist, is punished. Players have stopped streaming because all their streams have to follow the incredibly stringent OWL code of conduct, to the point where it's not even fun for them. This isn't the system that Valve want because, like I said, Dota is unique in the way that it pushes player personalities to the forefront. While I disagree, I guess this is the system that Valve thinks will best help preserve that component of the scene will also placating the people who have called for action to be taken against these racist and hate-filled statements. I say placate because, honestly, I think Valve would not punish anybody if they thought there wouldn't be any financial repercussions.

Pamela Springstein
Aug 10, 2016

just wanted to be
a happy camper



lol VP. loving yikes.

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010




RazzleDazzleHour posted:

I think the monitoring of the scene is something that is incredibly complicated, and as such will probably never come to fruition without people doing the whistleblowing like what happened with Ceb. Valve have made it clear that they aren't going to lay down any concrete rules, so everything is going to have to be case-by-case, but even then I think that it's impossible to try and monitor this kind of stuff with any consistency.

People clowned on me for "defending" iceiceice but it's a more complicated situation than I think people give it credit for. Like, obviously he knew it was a bad word, but I'm not sure if he knew it was any worse than saying gently caress or something, which people say all the time. I used to work as an English tutor for ESL college students. One girl from Serbia said the n-word and I was like woah what the gently caress you can't say that, and her response was "chill the gently caress out, I'm just joking." And it wasn't like oh, she only felt comfortable saying that because you were a white person, there was a black guy there with us and she still said it with total confidence. Do you punish her exactly the same as someone from America who has a clearly different knowledge about the social acceptability of using that word? Same thing with n0tail saying stuff at the Summit - the things he says were so normal in America ten years ago that we needed to have television PSAs asking people to not say "that's so gay" as an insult. poo poo, I know lots of gay people that STILL call things "gay as gently caress."

Part of the fun of Dota is how there's so much personality in the players, and the most well-received events have always been poo poo like The Summit where the players were at the forefront. Up to this point, we've been in a no-rules scenario where anything goes. While I fundamentally agree with the Kuku punishment, the reason so many people disliked the situation is because Valve went from absolutely hands-off to suddenly enforcing non-existent rules, which I would have been okay with if they had proceeded to lay out some sort of groundwork for a code of behavior with correlating punishment guidelines (if you do x then y happens), but then they also didn't do that. Then, by creating no rules but also enforcing punishment on Ceb for his incident, they've essentially solidified the system of "no punishment unless someone raises a fuss on Reddit, then punish based on how mad people are," which is not how a functional Code of Conduct should work. The things Mason has said are way worse than what, say, Kuku has said, where's Mason's punishment? Mason isn't a pro player so they can't fine him, but if they banned Rawdota for eight years for being a game-ruiner and account buyer, why can't they punish Mason? The unfortunate reason is because not enough people have complained about it yet.

The core of the issue is what I mentioned above - laying down any sort of definitive conduct guide is only going to cause more problems because of how complicated the situation is. In a way, it makes the most sense to evaluate each situation case-by-case, but when the ones who decide which players should be evaluated for punishment is Reddit, which is functionally the case, that's a bad system. But, that's the system that Valve want. The other alternative they would have is to go the way of the Overwatch League, where players are totally under the control of Blizzard and saying something even negative about the game, much less racist, is punished. Players have stopped streaming because all their streams have to follow the incredibly stringent OWL code of conduct, to the point where it's not even fun for them. This isn't the system that Valve want because, like I said, Dota is unique in the way that it pushes player personalities to the forefront. While I disagree, I guess this is the system that Valve thinks will best help preserve that component of the scene will also placating the people who have called for action to be taken against these racist and hate-filled statements. I say placate because, honestly, I think Valve would not punish anybody if they thought there wouldn't be any financial repercussions.

Valve doesn't want to do anything because it would require effort

maybe if they could get an algorithm to do it

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



Andrast posted:

That's not a system Valve wants because it would require effort

Yeah that's mostly what I meant when I say they would not punish anyone if they could. Not that they didn't want to restrict freedom of speech or whatever, but because they couldn't automate it and they don't want to do the work

case in point: Steam store. Game called Rape Day gets banned for "not following community guidelines," meanwhile games with rape on steam are everywhere but no one is writing Kotaku articles about them so they're fine

Centzon Totochtin
Jan 2, 2009


Mason cheated at the nugget eating contest at the most recent summit

He is persona non grata

GOOD TIMES ON METH
Mar 17, 2006



Fun Shoe

Fly was the MvP of that game 3, dude was always in position saving people and solo covering the map with vision without getting picked a thousand times. He died twice against a Weaver/Slark/Mirana ult team that was heavily ahead, which is actually nuts

VP needs to blow up their roster

Sudden Loud Noise
Feb 18, 2007




I've written like 5 different drafts of ideas on how to fix all the vitrol and racism and deleted all of them because 30 seconds of thinking reveals giant holes in my ideas.

The major sponsors pulling out because of bad press is probably the only thing that could result in actual attempt at change. And that would result in either the community dying, or hopefully improving slightly (har it's the same thing.)

GOOD TIMES ON METH
Mar 17, 2006



Fun Shoe

Also I feel bad for Tims and other TNC players for like getting booed all the way back to their hotel BUT maybe don't play with racists

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RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



Sudden Loud Noise posted:

The major sponsors pulling out because of bad press is probably the only thing that could result in actual attempt at change. And that would result in either the community dying, or hopefully improving slightly (har it's the same thing.)

Sponsors pulling out would probably only hurt teams because that means less guaranteed salary through team sponsorships, meanwhile Valve's bottom line doesn't change at all because TI earns them a hundred million dollars every year

GOOD TIMES ON METH posted:

Also I feel bad for Tims and other TNC players for like getting booed all the way back to their hotel BUT maybe don't play with racists

I would not be surprised if they were boo'd back to the hotel even if Kuku weren't on the team. The rampant racism toward SEA from China is a significant contributor to the reason Kuku did the thing he did. That doesn't justify it of course, but mobs of Americans didn't follow Sunbhie back to his hotel after all the US TIs. Russains didn't follow Ceb back to his hotel. There's more to something like that happening

RazzleDazzleHour fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Aug 21, 2019

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