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IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida



Craptacular! posted:

They used to be a defend your base / defend your push thing, but now you see them being used for team fights in the middle. Maybe itís just me, but it feels like teams consequently arenít buying as much in items now for mid-game teamfight buybacks.

yeah it owns, what's the problem?


Reality Sinner posted:

It's Craptacular

much like Tiny, never pass up a free volley

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Superrodan
Nov 27, 2007


Craptacular! posted:

They used to be a defend your base / defend your push thing, but now you see them being used for team fights in the middle. Maybe itís just me, but it feels like teams consequently arenít buying as much in items now for mid-game teamfight buybacks.

You stated something different about the game, but why do you consider that a bad thing? Mid-fight buybacks make fights more exciting and add more of a consequence for the next death, making the game more exciting and opening new opportunities.

BabyRyoga
May 21, 2001

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021


IcePhoenix posted:

they seem fine to me?

Buyback Dota has been pretty lovely not only this TI but last as well. I don't understand how they haven't been nerfed hard in the entire year between TIs, they are probably the dumbest thing in the entire game right now.

You shouldn't be able to completely feed an enemy team that has no buybacks, then just win the game because your team does. This happens so many times.

edit: a good change would be that your travels go on CD when you buyback.

Incoherence
May 22, 2004

POYO AND TEAR


Nahaz dropping the F-bomb in defense of SA Dota

boredsatellite
Dec 7, 2013



The dream... the dream was beautiful

Thanks for the fun and the laughs Infamous.

bean mom
Jan 30, 2009

Beach Empress



wow that was rude

Cabbit
Jul 19, 2001

Is that everything you have?



Incoherence posted:

Nahaz dropping the F-bomb in defense of SA Dota

Tonight, Nahaz rules.

Incoherence
May 22, 2004

POYO AND TEAR


BabyRyoga posted:

You shouldn't be able to completely feed an enemy team that has no buybacks, then just win the game because your team does. This happens so many times.
Nah. If you're doing the midgame-buyback thing, you're floating gold that could be items, and if your buyback gambit fails, you're losing even harder.

The big teamfight heroes are getting picked so much right now that having a way to negate the wombo-combo draft feels like it's even more important. That last game had a Void, Enigma, Tide, and Doom.

RealityWarCriminal
Aug 10, 2016

all war is crime
still cute tho


Are they playing vg/secret today?

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida



BabyRyoga posted:

Buyback Dota has been pretty lovely not only this TI but last as well. I don't understand how they haven't been nerfed hard in the entire year between TIs, they are probably the dumbest thing in the entire game right now.

You shouldn't be able to completely feed an enemy team that has no buybacks, then just win the game because your team does. This happens so many times.

edit: a good change would be that your travels go on CD when you buyback.

sounds like the team with no buybacks needs to git gud and not feed after they force out the other team using theirs

Super Rad
Feb 15, 2003
Sir Loin of Beef

Reality Sinner posted:

Are they playing vg/secret today?

That's tomorrow, just liquid/eg left today

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida



Super Rad posted:

That's tomorrow, just liquid/eg left today

AND the ARDM All-Star game

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida



Cabbit posted:

Nahaz rules.

https://clips.twitch.tv/TacitToughEchidnaTF2John

Arzachel
May 12, 2012


BabyRyoga posted:

You shouldn't be able to completely feed an enemy team that has no buybacks, then just win the game because your team does. This happens so many times.

:thunk:

BabyRyoga
May 21, 2001

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021


Incoherence posted:

Nah. If you're doing the midgame-buyback thing, you're floating gold that could be items, and if your buyback gambit fails, you're losing even harder.

The big teamfight heroes are getting picked so much right now that having a way to negate the wombo-combo draft feels like it's even more important. That last game had a Void, Enigma, Tide, and Doom.

I'm more talking about late game scenarios where the game is closed out by a team with buyback advantage taking a team fight they know they will lose on the enemy team's side of the map, but just buying back into it over a team that doesn't have buybacks to outlast and win. It just doesn't feel right.

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida



BabyRyoga posted:

I'm more talking about late game scenarios where the game is closed out by a team with buyback advantage taking a team fight they know they will lose on the enemy team's side of the map, but just buying back into it over a team that doesn't have buybacks to outlast and win. It just doesn't feel right.

sounds like the team with buybacks outplayed the team without and deserved to win

IncendiaC
Sep 25, 2011


oh drat they made a video about the GL guy who made the chinese recap comics. those were great

DisDisDis
Dec 21, 2013


lmao the hobby of a single man

BabyRyoga
May 21, 2001

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021


IcePhoenix posted:

sounds like the team with buybacks outplayed the team without and deserved to win

They very specifically don't outplay the enemy team, lol. That's why the whole mechanic feels weird to me.

You are rewarding sloppy play because a mechanic of the game that had been nerfed and nerfed for so long of the game's history suddenly got buffed, and you win a battle of attrition rather than directly outplaying your opponent.

boredsatellite
Dec 7, 2013



IncendiaC posted:

oh drat they made a video about the GL guy who made the chinese recap comics. those were great

Yeah this is cool

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida



BabyRyoga posted:

They very specifically don't outplay the enemy team, lol.

They have buybacks and their opponents don't, and won because of it. They outplayed them. If their opponents had buybacks then they wouldn't have lost.

RazzleDazzleHour
Mar 30, 2016



The weirdest thing about buybacks is that this is basically exactly how the system used to be around TI3/4(?) and everyone thought it was bullshit that one team would buy items and the losing team would just mass buyback into a lost fight and turn it around and get more out of the fight than they lost. This was the Spectre patch that mostly got this nerfed into the ground and made you unable to earn gold almost at all in a short period after a buyback. They've slowly been reverting this so now it's around back to how it used to be, where you almost don't want to be ahead because then your buybacks are way more expensive and if the losing team just mass buybacks a fight into you they'll come out of it with tons of EXP and even possibly more gold than they started with

BabyRyoga
May 21, 2001

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021


RazzleDazzleHour posted:

The weirdest thing about buybacks is that this is basically exactly how the system used to be around TI3/4(?) and everyone thought it was bullshit that one team would buy items and the losing team would just mass buyback into a lost fight and turn it around and get more out of the fight than they lost. This was the Spectre patch that mostly got this nerfed into the ground and made you unable to earn gold almost at all in a short period after a buyback. They've slowly been reverting this so now it's around back to how it used to be, where you almost don't want to be ahead because then your buybacks are way more expensive and if the losing team just mass buybacks a fight into you they'll come out of it with tons of EXP and even possibly more gold than they started with

This too.

From a spectator viewpoint, it's fun to have "buyback bullshit" in play because it makes for exciting, swingy games, but any buff to comeback mechanics ultimately cheapens the game as whole in the long run. I'd rather see mistakes punished than sloppy play rewarded. Both come out of buybacks, but more so the latter.

Craptacular!
Jul 9, 2001

Fuck the DH


Superrodan posted:

You stated something different about the game, but why do you consider that a bad thing? Mid-fight buybacks make fights more exciting and add more of a consequence for the next death, making the game more exciting and opening new opportunities.

From a spectator perspective itís really irritating to see DPS poured into someone and then they pop right back up. In my case, I watched Infamous focus everything on Tiny only for him to buy back immediately. There is a normal mechanic for that sort of thing, which is the Aegis, and it has itís own risks. The trade off of buyback as a cheap aegis is that teams are six slotted less and less often.

That said, someone was right when they said ďitís Craptacular.Ē I call for balance changes when things I donít like happen to teams I want to win.

Incoherence
May 22, 2004

POYO AND TEAR


BabyRyoga posted:

This too.

From a spectator viewpoint, it's fun to have "buyback bullshit" in play because it makes for exciting, swingy games, but any buff to comeback mechanics ultimately cheapens the game as whole in the long run. I'd rather see mistakes punished than sloppy play rewarded. Both come out of buybacks, but more so the latter.
It's not really a "comeback mechanic" per se. It's a resource, just like cooldowns and gold and experience, and it's a resource you can actually forgo by spending all your gold ahead of the fight (which comes with its own potential rewards). If, in this situation, both teams have buyback, then the fight can swing back the original direction as both teams buy back.

Teams don't mass-buyback into fights they're already winning because it's unnecessary resource usage unless, say, your building hitter dies and can extract a lot more value by buying back after the fight.

Incoherence fucked around with this message at 08:19 on Aug 23, 2019

Cabbit
Jul 19, 2001

Is that everything you have?



I maintain that not letting people buy back during the first ~40% of their death timer would fix most of the problems with buyback.

ElNarez
Nov 4, 2009


IcePhoenix posted:

They have buybacks and their opponents don't, and won because of it. They outplayed them. If their opponents had buybacks then they wouldn't have lost.

From another perspective, if you have the money for buybacks it's because you farmed the money for buybacks, and if you farmed the money for buybacks it's because you have the map control or the build or the skill to farm for the buyback. You're acting like comeback gold is something out of nothing, but that's not quite true.

bean mom
Jan 30, 2009

Beach Empress



i think the problem if there is one is that it feels like the buyback is way more valuable than another item

BabyRyoga
May 21, 2001

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2021


Incoherence posted:

It's not really a "comeback mechanic" per se. It's a resource, just like cooldowns and gold and experience, and it's a resource you can actually forego by spending all your gold ahead of the fight (which comes with its own potential rewards). If, in this situation, both teams have buyback, then the fight can swing back the original direction as both teams buy back.

Teams don't mass-buyback into fights they're already winning because it's unnecessary resource usage unless, say, your building hitter dies and can extract a lot more value by buying back after the fight.

The comeback mechanic part of it isn't the buyback, it's the extra gold and xp you gain from being in a losing position and getting kills.

ElNarez
Nov 4, 2009


BabyRyoga posted:

The comeback mechanic part of it isn't the buyback, it's the extra gold and xp you gain from being in a losing position and getting kills.

Yeah but that's what makes Dota so cool, you don't just win by virtue of being ahead, you have to then turn your gold advantage into kills and objectives. It's the whole game. It's why "objective-based gaming" is a thing. If you want a game where the rich get richer, start a Monopoly league.

Andrast
Apr 21, 2010




If buybacks have been "bad" this TI and the previous TI then my conclusion is that bad buyback mechanics result in amazing games of dota

like seriously, the games in TI8 and TI9 have been incredible

TheRat
Aug 30, 2006



Tinker :barf:

JollyBoyJohn
Feb 13, 2019




great post/name combo

Arzachel
May 12, 2012


Zyla posted:

i think the problem if there is one is that it feels like the buyback is way more valuable than another item

Buying an item usually isn't a massive gamble unless it's a Rapier :v:

If you buyback and the enemy team disengages, if you buyback but can't get to the fight quickly enough, if you buyback into a fight and then get picked off afterwards etc.

i say swears online
Mar 4, 2005

medio de fonte leporum surgo amariter





ugh

i've heard a lot of chat about "BM" and it's baffling

beastmaster? brewmaster? broodmother? no, every time it's used it doesn't involve those heroes

comedy option, blademail, superseding acronyms based on real heroes and even then when chat spams BM it usually doesn't involve the item

even worse, does it have to do with bowel movements

Cinara
Jul 15, 2007


bad manners, doing something that disrespects their opponent.

i say swears online
Mar 4, 2005

medio de fonte leporum surgo amariter





Cinara posted:

bad manners, doing something that disrespects their opponent.

how

how is that both the most middle-school and least-obvious choice. i love dota 2

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida



ElNarez posted:

From another perspective, if you have the money for buybacks it's because you farmed the money for buybacks, and if you farmed the money for buybacks it's because you have the map control or the build or the skill to farm for the buyback. You're acting like comeback gold is something out of nothing, but that's not quite true.

You say this is from another perspective but I can't figure out how it's not just straight up agreeing with me. e: maybe you quoted the wrong post because I never mentioned comeback gold?

i say swears online posted:

how

how is that both the most middle-school and least-obvious choice. i love dota 2

it's actually the most obvious choice you're just not used to it :v:

IcePhoenix fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Aug 23, 2019

boredsatellite
Dec 7, 2013



i'm surprised one can follow esports without knowing what BM means for so long

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Cinara
Jul 15, 2007


It doesn't originate from Dota2 at all.

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