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TheRat
Aug 30, 2006



https://twitter.com/deathnekotifa/status/1275516651962679296

https://twitter.com/deathnekotifa/status/1275518134879842304

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Centzon Totochtin
Jan 2, 2009


Not surprised at all really

Centzon Totochtin
Jan 2, 2009


https://twitter.com/deathnekotifa/status/1275520159013203974?s=19

Peter "paying for no tacos" dager

mfcrocker
Jan 31, 2004





Hot Rope Guy

Zyori has more accusers https://twitter.com/Kipspul/status/1275526258210865157

Centzon Totochtin
Jan 2, 2009


Not sure who kixelated but he sounds like a real predator too

ATP_Power
Jun 12, 2010

This is what fascinates me most in existence: the peculiar necessity of imagining what is, in fact, real.




PPD being a shithead? If only there were some warning signs....

Sudden Loud Noise
Feb 18, 2007



Slacks loving rules and he's still completely right about Windranger.

Up Circle
Apr 3, 2008


ATP_Power posted:

PPD being a shithead? If only there were some warning signs....





"I will never pay for a woman's taco"

GOOD TIMES ON METH
Mar 17, 2006



Fun Shoe

I don't think the ppd stuff so far is nearly on the same level as all the other poo poo coming out but I have zero doubts that he would be a pretty poo poo boyfriend just based on his stream persona.

Now to watch as this post gracefully ages

Drunk Canuck
Jan 9, 2010

Robots ruin all the fun of a good adventure.


Emotional abuse is still extremely horrible behaviour.

SpiritOfLenin
Apr 29, 2013

be happy :3




GOOD TIMES ON METH posted:

I don't think the ppd stuff so far is nearly on the same level as all the other poo poo coming out but I have zero doubts that he would be a pretty poo poo boyfriend just based on his stream persona.

Now to watch as this post gracefully ages

I mean, it was bad enough that PPD's ex wanted to commit suicide so I would argue it is pretty loving bad (checked her twitter and she mentions having been suicidal for a time due to the relationship).

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

SpiritOfLenin posted:

I mean, it was bad enough that PPD's ex wanted to commit suicide so I would argue it is pretty loving bad (checked her twitter and she mentions having been suicidal for a time due to the relationship).

Yeah it might be a step below 'lucky not to be put on trial' but is very much in the zone of 'should disappear from dota and never ever come back'.

Tiger Millionaire
Jan 25, 2014

He'll eat your kids and fire your parents!


Manilla was 2016? And EGs TI win was 2015? There's something extra scummy there for PPD to use finances as a way to belittle his partner, over a 2$ taco

GOOD TIMES ON METH
Mar 17, 2006



Fun Shoe

Peter sucks that's fine, please don't confuse this with me defending him. I think 'boyfriend didn't buy me a taco' just doesn't really hit me very hard after reading stories of women being drugged and raped at Valve events or pressured into sex with members of the industry.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

tournament and event organizers need codes of conduct that explicitly specify that this stuff is not okay, and to not hire people who violate those standards. Without in anyway saying this behaviour is excusable, it's certainly predictable, and the lack of guidelines explicitly spelling out unacceptable behaviour (and penalties for breaking those boundaries) contributes to that.

(idk if not buying tacos for people makes it on to the code of conduct but I'm not a TO so i dont have to make these tough calls)

GOOD TIMES ON METH
Mar 17, 2006



Fun Shoe

I sort of think Pro Dota should just go away forever after everything over the past few days. There isn't anything that is going to fix this short of Valve running everything and being aggressive about stamping all this poo poo out and I have zero trust in them to do that

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



Refusing to buy your GF a $2 taco seems like some poo poo you'd read in a PUA book

Beef
Jul 26, 2004


awesmoe posted:

tournament and event organizers need codes of conduct that explicitly specify that this stuff is not okay, and to not hire people who violate those standards.

No, we need organizers to follow common norms, we're in a dark place if you have to make talent sign a "don't drug and rape women" CoC.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Beef posted:

No, we need organizers to follow common norms, we're in a dark place if you have to make talent sign a "don't drug and rape women" CoC.

the norms for tech conferences are to have codes of conduct
yes. we're in a dark place.
e: expecting people to behave better, and requiring that they behave better, can also mean supporting them to behave better (by giving them clarity about what better looks like)

awesmoe fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jun 23, 2020

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008



14. United States ppd Peter Dager $3,021,731.36

just btw

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



Beef posted:

No, we need organizers to follow common norms, we're in a dark place if you have to make talent sign a "don't drug and rape women" CoC.

For that specifically? No, but you do need to hold people to some kind of standard. Otherwise if a situation does crop up everyone ends up sitting on their hands
because there's no defined way of dealing with it.

Ragingsheep
Nov 7, 2009


awesmoe posted:

tournament and event organizers need codes of conduct that explicitly specify that this stuff is not okay, and to not hire people who violate those standards. Without in anyway saying this behaviour is excusable, it's certainly predictable, and the lack of guidelines explicitly spelling out unacceptable behaviour (and penalties for breaking those boundaries) contributes to that.

Do you really need a code of conduct which says " don't drug and sexually assault people"? Because if you do, I think you might has well just burn it all to the ground and give up.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Ragingsheep posted:

Do you really need a code of conduct which says " don't drug and sexually assault people"? Because if you do, I think you might has well just burn it all to the ground and give up.

so, no, not specifically that because that's illegal and would be covered by the appropriate laws
but if you have a code of conduct that specifies what appropriate behavior is, and where the borders are, then that supports people protecting themselves (and each other!) at that border - which, in turn, helps prevent rape culture

nikosoft
Dec 17, 2011

ghost in the shell, but somehow much worse

College Slice

Ragingsheep posted:

Do you really need a code of conduct which says " don't drug and sexually assault people"? Because if you do, I think you might has well just burn it all to the ground and give up.

Actually, yeah, you should have these in place. They should be required for cast and crew to read and agree to if they are going to work your event.

NtotheTC
Dec 31, 2007


Ragingsheep posted:

Do you really need a code of conduct which says " don't drug and sexually assault people"? Because if you do, I think you might has well just burn it all to the ground and give up.

Cmon man this is like the US border security when you step off the plane and they ask "are you planning to overthrow the US government?" they're not doing it to try and catch people out saying "yes" the point is to make it a loving slam dunk if you do do anything seditious. If you've signed a COC that specifically had stuff about proper conduct and behaviour in it then the second you inappropriately touch someone the organiser can go "bam, you're out. don't have to give a poo poo about the result of the criminal proceedings, don't have to wait-and-see, we can get rid of you right now and it's as easy as the click of a finger because you signed a contract and you're in breach of it"

Beef
Jul 26, 2004


TOOT BOOT posted:

For that specifically? No, but you do need to hold people to some kind of standard. Otherwise if a situation does crop up everyone ends up sitting on their hands
because there's no defined way of dealing with it.

You cannot properly codify "don't be a loving rear end" or "don't creep on people". If anything, it gives a free pass to have the same effect via other ways that are now, guess what, totally OK because it's not in the CoC!
Nebulous and broad CoCs are likely drafted by corporations partly as a whitewashing "look we're doing something", but seem to be more effective as a tool for getting rid of people on their shitlist. It's a lovely way to enforce social norms, something that _everyone_ should help enforce, all the time.

Beef
Jul 26, 2004


Is there anything stopping tournament organizers to already fire and ban people on the spot that grope women?

edit: or men. If it can happen to Terry, it can happen to any man.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...





Beef posted:

You cannot properly codify "don't be a loving rear end" or "don't creep on people". If anything, it gives a free pass to have the same effect via other ways that are now, guess what, totally OK because it's not in the CoC!
Nebulous and broad CoCs are likely drafted by corporations partly as a whitewashing "look we're doing something", but seem to be more effective as a tool for getting rid of people on their shitlist. It's a lovely way to enforce social norms, something that _everyone_ should help enforce, all the time.

yeah and the sheer lack of anything so far sure worked out for those women, huh

can't wait for the burden of not being abused by people to be placed on *looks at notes* the people being abused and ostensibly the ones doing it instead of the organization that oversees everyone

GOOD TIMES ON METH
Mar 17, 2006



Fun Shoe

Beef posted:

Is there anything stopping tournament organizers to already fire and ban people on the spot that grope women?

If they are signed to contracts without those stipulations then yeah, it might not be open and shut

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Beef posted:

You cannot properly codify "don't be a loving rear end" or "don't creep on people". If anything, it gives a free pass to have the same effect via other ways that are now, guess what, totally OK because it's not in the CoC!
Nebulous and broad CoCs are likely drafted by corporations partly as a whitewashing "look we're doing something", but seem to be more effective as a tool for getting rid of people on their shitlist. It's a lovely way to enforce social norms, something that _everyone_ should help enforce, all the time.

https://theleaddeveloper.com/code-of-conduct
its hard to make a good one but its not like impossible

e: https://www.webstock.org.nz/19/code-of-conduct/

awesmoe fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jun 23, 2020

nikosoft
Dec 17, 2011

ghost in the shell, but somehow much worse

College Slice

Beef posted:

You cannot properly codify "don't be a loving rear end" or "don't creep on people". If anything, it gives a free pass to have the same effect via other ways that are now, guess what, totally OK because it's not in the CoC!
Nebulous and broad CoCs are likely drafted by corporations partly as a whitewashing "look we're doing something", but seem to be more effective as a tool for getting rid of people on their shitlist. It's a lovely way to enforce social norms, something that _everyone_ should help enforce, all the time.

You can and should codify your expectations for these events, even if it's only to reinforce what should be common sense and a social norm. Taking the step to communicate policies is really important when it comes to their effectiveness. It's not just for CYA after the fact, there's actual, provable value in being up front about expectations.

NtotheTC
Dec 31, 2007


Beef posted:

You cannot properly codify "don't be a loving rear end" or "don't creep on people".

Of course you can? every conference I've ever attended has had a code of conduct that easily covered all of this and other forms of bigotry and abuse.

Beef
Jul 26, 2004


I'm still wrapping my head around the fact that basic common norms need to be committed to paper and signed to be enforced.

Beef
Jul 26, 2004



I actually like this one, it doesn't try to exhaustively itemize everything and:

quote:

To quote the folks from Kiwicon, the “inventive genius of random assholes” is limitless.

awesmoe
Nov 30, 2005



Pillbug

Beef posted:

I'm still wrapping my head around the fact that basic common norms need to be committed to paper and signed to be enforced.
good codes of conduct document enforcement policies and how to report violations. they support victims.
e:
as I understand it a huge part of the problem is that victims dont feel supported and or validated - they know how they feel in the moment but they dont know whether they're right in feeling that way. A code of conduct spells out that, yup, what happened is not okay and you should tell us so we can do something about it.
this shows other potential perpetrators that no, that borderline poo poo has consequences and they shouldnt do it

awesmoe fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jun 23, 2020

Alchenar
Apr 9, 2008

I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by

NtotheTC posted:

Of course you can? every conference I've ever attended has had a code of conduct that easily covered all of this and other forms of bigotry and abuse.

Yeah the whole point is when you arent trying to uphold a criminal legal standard of codification you can just write 'dont be a dick also that's within my discretion to define' because everyone in reality knows what's acceptable and what isnt.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...





i'm still wrapping my head around you not understanding the basics of legality when it comes to corporations and how it's not some magical world where everyone holds hands and sings about how the world can be a better place as long as we strive for it

TheRat
Aug 30, 2006



https://twitter.com/TheWonderCow/status/1275216099823554560

Ragingsheep
Nov 7, 2009


Yeah fair enough on the codification thing.

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Ojetor
Aug 4, 2010

Return of the Sensei



It's less about contractual obligations and more to have a document everyone can reference that strictly regulates what is appropriate and not. Said document should also state who's in charge of overseeing this and enforcing it. Obviously you don't need to write down "don't rape people", as that's a literal crime. It's still good practice to have guidelines about what is acceptable behavior and set down a process to remediate issues if they pop up. It gives victims some additional security that they will be heard and action will be taken.

Not sure why this appears to be huge news for everyone, most conferences/conventions/big events have a CoC to deal with this poo poo.

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