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Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




If it's a legitimate feminist rape, the comic has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.

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Cloacamazing!
Apr 18, 2018


Oh boy. That part. I forgot most things about this webcomic, but I do remember this.

The amount of justification for this rape that's piled on here is simply astounding. Melna is going to be killed, so Stonewater just HAS to claim her as his wife, but there are evil traditions in her clan so he HAS to have sex with her or she'll be killed, but she won't listen to him so he HAS to rape her, but he felt bad about it afterwards. And it'll only get worse. Spoiler: By the end of this storyline, everybody will have understood that Stonewater was in no way to blame for his actions, asked his forgiveness for their unreasonable anger and realize that he was, in fact, acting very heroically. He will also have very hurt feelings, so everybody will have to cheer him up and tell him how great he is. This is very important. No, Melna does not get that, why are you asking?

This whole "rape for good reasons" is something I've seen argued a lot - by rape apologists and/or rapists. "But what if a terrorist took an orphanage hostage and threatened to kill them all unless I rape this woman!" seems to be a favorite reply to statements like "Rape is always bad". The answer, by the way, is not to rape the woman, but leave the hostage negotiations up to the professionals. The actual answer is to stop fantasizing about poo poo like that, what the gently caress is wrong with you, Mookie? And even with the limitation Mookie added in, there were other ways than flat out raping Melna that could have gotten her through this.

As TLD has already pointed out, Team Rape Apology (Mookie's self inserts) are completely calm and rational and just want the chance for Stonewater to explain his side of the story. Team "You loving raped her!" is very angry and emotional and will lash out even at innocent people. It is very clear which is the right side. Insert calm and rational Hitler comic here.

And that's what I probably hate the most about this comic. It's definitely aimed at a younger audience who would not immediately question this story as represented. So you're basically taking this medium and using it to tell a bunch of teens "Rape can be cool and good under the right circumstances!" and they're going to believe it, because it's told through characters they've been taught are always right and good. And this is not okay.


Kavak posted:

If it's a legitimate feminist rape, the comic has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.
Terrible page snipe, good post

Cloacamazing! fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Dec 18, 2020

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Just... loving ew. I should have known it would, somehow, mange to be even worse than I could have imagined. Ugh.

Happy Landfill
Feb 26, 2011

But Nemo, I am Pagliacci

I am so, so glad I tapped out of reading DD long before this point. Jesus.

Bismuth
Jun 10, 2010

the belly button hungers

Hell Gem

Has he ever apologized for it or does he still to this day think this was a good thing to write?

Invisible Clergy
Sep 25, 2015

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces"

Malachi 2:3


Bismuth posted:

Has he ever apologized for it or does he still to this day think this was a good thing to write?

He has done the exact opposite of apologize for it and has consistently doubled down on it being a good idea. "People have written sexy thieves and sexy murderers, why not a sexy rapist? I'm clearly a genius for being the first person to have this idea," and he uses Stonewater as an example of writing flawed characters when he gives his lectures at cons about writing memorable heroes and villains. He has learned nothing from this or any other arc and as you can see from Legacy has gotten demonstrably worse over time.

Telarra
Oct 9, 2012



He got at least one letter from someone who said that it helped them in dealing with their own trauma, so he will think it was one of his great triumphs and never realize how hosed up it was til the day he dies.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Telarra posted:

He got at least one letter from someone who said that it helped them in dealing with their own trauma, so he will think it was one of his great triumphs and never realize how hosed up it was til the day he dies.

Great. :shepicide:

Invisible Clergy
Sep 25, 2015

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces"

Malachi 2:3


Telarra posted:

He got at least one letter from someone who said that it helped them in dealing with their own trauma, so he will think it was one of his great triumphs and never realize how hosed up it was til the day he dies.

Well, he said he did, anyway.

Pyrotoad
Oct 24, 2010




Illegal Hen

Invisible Clergy posted:

"People have written sexy thieves and sexy murderers, why not a sexy rapist? I'm clearly a genius for being the first person to have this idea,"

Perhaps the dumbest part of this whole thing is that the 'sexy rapist' trope actually does exist - there's an entire romance subgenre about that very subject, called the 'bodice ripper'.

They're not loving kids though, so really what Mookie wrote - and wanted to write - was a sexy pedophile.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Pyrotoad posted:

Perhaps the dumbest part of this whole thing is that the 'sexy rapist' trope actually does exist - there's an entire romance subgenre about that very subject, called the 'bodice ripper'.

They're not loving kids though, so really what Mookie wrote - and wanted to write - was a sexy pedophile.

Bodice-rippers also do no go to absurd and disturbing lengths to make rape not just forgivable but morally justified and righteous.

Marin Karin
Jul 29, 2011

What are you, compared to my magnificence?


haha oh you silly hysterical women, please step aside while us men calmly and rationally discuss why rape is morally justifiable.

Invisible Clergy
Sep 25, 2015

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces"

Malachi 2:3


Kavak posted:

Bodice-rippers also do no go to absurd and disturbing lengths to make rape not just forgivable but morally justified and righteous.

There is also a noticeable dearth of highly-trained orc hymen inspectors sharpening their knives outside the princess's bedchamber in these.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:



Grimey Drawer

Yeah, that's... still just the worst thing.

Like maybe, Mookie, just maybe, you should realize that if you have to contrive that many outlandishly horrific circumstances to create a situation in which a rape is "justified", then maybe you aren't pulling this off. Like if you have to put your thumb on the scales that hard in making everyone who's still angry about it irrational and ignorant of The Truth, well, it ain't happenin'.

I'm not saying anything new here, there's nothing new to say, everyone can see this was a terrible idea that should not have been implemented.

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


Hold on, hold on. I thought his goal was heroic rapist, not sexy. You can have heroic thieves and heroic killers, so why not... But the number of contrivances he had to stack onto the scene to make it "work" shows he already knows why not.

Marin Karin
Jul 29, 2011

What are you, compared to my magnificence?


mookie's deep belief that anything good is impeccable and shining, combined with the flaws he refuses to acknowledge he has, makes the twist and turns his psyche produces genuinely fascinating. he has to make every thought he has something heroic to fit himself within his own sense of morality. he's ted from the ambition series.

super sweet best pal
Nov 18, 2009



It's appropriate that Mookie's using the kind of reasoning that cursed D&D with the Kender to give absolution in his D&D ripoff story.

Bismuth
Jun 10, 2010

the belly button hungers

Hell Gem

Invisible Clergy posted:

There is also a noticeable dearth of highly-trained orc hymen inspectors sharpening their knives outside the princess's bedchamber in these.

Hymen and/or cum inspectors. Honestly this is the grossest and worst part of the whole thing. He obviously saw a plot hole that would let the characters get out of it without going through with the deed so he had to add that last horrifying cherry on top to seal the deal.

egg tats
Apr 3, 2010


so I went looking through the internet archive for the blog posts, since I remember them being vile, and found


Mookie, January 30,2006 posted:

And finally, the flashback storyarc has officially come to a close, and it certainly drew a lot of attention around here. Some of you thought I handled the subject very tastefully. Some of you thought I came up short on the whole thing. Some of you thought I was trying to justify or even glorify rape. Some of you thought I was simply using the subject for the sake of controversy and attention. Some of you thought it was one of the best stories I'd written to date. Whatever your opinion of it, I thought I did the best I could and enjoyed putting a good orc in a very, very bad situation.

I was trying to find his post where he talks about wanting to have made a heroic rapist but I only found this gem which is basically a fistpump and a "nailed it"

this was also posted on the first day of the 2 week long redesign where the blog post was above the comic on the frontpage. because even mookie can't understand how someone would be going to his site for the comic he draws

Zerilan
Jan 11, 2008

I have to believe I can do this.







egg tats posted:

so I went looking through the internet archive for the blog posts, since I remember them being vile, and found


I was trying to find his post where he talks about wanting to have made a heroic rapist but I only found this gem which is basically a fistpump and a "nailed it"

this was also posted on the first day of the 2 week long redesign where the blog post was above the comic on the frontpage. because even mookie can't understand how someone would be going to his site for the comic he draws

The quote was from an interview on the keencast podcast.

Mookie - ep 12 of Keencast posted:

People who kill other people aren’t always viewed as villains, hitmen make sexy characters, you never read stories about a sexy rapist….so what I wanted to do was–it was an experiment for me–

TheHan
Oct 29, 2011

Grind, you poor fool!
Grind straight for the stars!

Bismuth posted:

Has he ever apologized for it or does he still to this day think this was a good thing to write?

In an interview someone posted from after Deegan and right before Star Power Mookie does mention that he learned not to do this again. Like a lil liar he says it was just his way of showing and not telling, this just happened to be the worse thing he can think to show that Orc culture was terrible to women.

There was also a post where he did happily ever after art of Stonewater playing with his son for Patreon. Which seems like exactly the kind of poo poo someone who learned his lesson wouldn’t do.

GreenMetalSun
Oct 11, 2012


Pyrotoad posted:

Perhaps the dumbest part of this whole thing is that the 'sexy rapist' trope actually does exist - there's an entire romance subgenre about that very subject, called the 'bodice ripper'.

They're not loving kids though, so really what Mookie wrote - and wanted to write - was a sexy pedophile.

Not to defend romance novels, but for the most part, with novels like that, it's easy to tell that they're usually written with one of two audiences in mind:

1) Middle-aged Christian women who can't just admit they're horny, but OH NO! This bandit king/viking/pirate/sheik/native warrior* doesn't play by the rules of 'civilized' society.

*also usually includes medium to high levels of racism.

2) People with non-con kinks. Not my thing, but consenting adults can roleplay whatever, at least they're honest about it.

I have a thousand times more respect for romance novel writers than I do for Mookie trying to pretend this is high art.

GrossMurpel
Apr 8, 2011


This is all well and good but let's talk about the most important thing:
Surely if this is such a savage but honorable tribe, the others watching the fight should have torn the guy apart as soon as he tried to attack an innocent bystander.

Zerilan
Jan 11, 2008

I have to believe I can do this.







I think the thing that disgusts me the most of all of this that I don't think was mentioned: the first panel in the comic immediately after the "jazzhands"

the ripped clothing

the poses

Mookie is the loving worst and that he gets even the slightest amount of money and praise for continuing a series with THIS in it is a loving crime against art and decency

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

What is Dungeons and Dragons?


GrossMurpel posted:

This is all well and good but let's talk about the most important thing:
Surely if this is such a savage but honorable tribe, the others watching the fight should have torn the guy apart as soon as he tried to attack an innocent bystander.

"Ah but you see women and girls are property so it would be like attacking someone's lamp, which isn't against the rules!" :pseudo:

Soup du Jour
Sep 8, 2011

I always knew I'd die with a headache.



I’m going to sidestep all the truly heinous poo poo here and instead just laugh at the concept of cum inspectors, which I had completely forgotten were part of this

GreenMetalSun
Oct 11, 2012


Who What Now posted:

"Ah but you see women and girls are property so it would be like attacking someone's lamp, which isn't against the rules!" :pseudo:

Wait a second, why would you even your bring your wife and underage daughter to the RapeClan Meeting run by RapeClan on the RapeClan territory where anyone is allowed to rape women if they murder their husbands and also they sanction the rape of female children?

Would it not have been feminist enough for him to say, 'idk honey, maybe sit this one out? and maybe lets not bring our daughter?'

Wasn't he one of the great tribal chiefs of his generation? I get that he couldn't bring an army onto someone else's lands, but wouldn't he have had at least a few bodyguards/warriors to look after his kid?

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



It also is very strange that, like, they go to the effort of throwing up all these traditional roadblocks but then immediately stop caring the moment she is officially his wife rather than still looking for excuses to kill her, which is clearly the thing they wanted to do.

Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




Mors Rattus posted:

It also is very strange that, like, they go to the effort of throwing up all these traditional roadblocks but then immediately stop caring the moment she is officially his wife rather than still looking for excuses to kill her, which is clearly the thing they wanted to do.

The noble savage is a creature of honor.



And also rape.

Cloacamazing!
Apr 18, 2018


GreenMetalSun posted:

Wait a second, why would you even your bring your wife and underage daughter to the RapeClan Meeting run by RapeClan on the RapeClan territory where anyone is allowed to rape women if they murder their husbands and also they sanction the rape of female children?

Would it not have been feminist enough for him to say, 'idk honey, maybe sit this one out? and maybe lets not bring our daughter?'

Wasn't he one of the great tribal chiefs of his generation? I get that he couldn't bring an army onto someone else's lands, but wouldn't he have had at least a few bodyguards/warriors to look after his kid?

I think they lived with RapeClan and the guy was feminist enough to be the only person in the entire RapeClan to treat his wife and daughter like people, but it never occurred to him that maybe leaving RapeClan would be the best thing to do for them.

GreenMetalSun
Oct 11, 2012


Cloacamazing! posted:

I think they lived with RapeClan and the guy was feminist enough to be the only person in the entire RapeClan to treat his wife and daughter like people, but it never occurred to him that maybe leaving RapeClan would be the best thing to do for them.

Okay, I see it now. I initially read it as some big meeting of chiefs with the rest of the orc leaders shrugging and being like, 'Welp, nothing we can do.'

Who What Now
Sep 10, 2006

What is Dungeons and Dragons?


Soup du Jour posted:

I’m going to sidestep all the truly heinous poo poo here and instead just laugh at the concept of cum inspectors, which I had completely forgotten were part of this

Mordja
Apr 26, 2014



Hell Gem

Seeing jazzhands again fills me with a warm sense of nostalgia.

Rotten Red Rod
Mar 5, 2002



Christ, the plot descriptions I've read don't do it justice, the actual thing with all the context is SO much worse.

Twelve by Pies
May 4, 2012

Again a very likpatous story


Stonewater isn't part of the Doma clan so why the hell would he have to follow their marriage laws? If it's because "They're in Doma territory and have to follow their laws" then how does he have the right to claim Melna as his wife, wouldn't they just be able to say "Sorry we don't recognize your claim since you're in our territory"? Why is Stonewater's dad, who's right loving there, not doing anything?

Beelzebufo
Mar 5, 2015

Frog puns are toadally awesome




Mors Rattus posted:

It also is very strange that, like, they go to the effort of throwing up all these traditional roadblocks but then immediately stop caring the moment she is officially his wife rather than still looking for excuses to kill her, which is clearly the thing they wanted to do.

In particular, the hymen/cum checking seems like an easy place to just fudge it. For the events to play out the way they do, apparently the Doma have an actual way to accurately check for sex, despite the hymen thing being mostly a myth in reality. I remember at the time people defending it by invoking the hymen idea, but this isn't a virginity check, it's literally the opposite, which is even more bullshit.

Riot Bus
Jan 8, 2020


I'm not a penis haver so I'm not overly familiar with their wiles, but wouldn't it be kind of hard to get it up in this situation? Like, presuming that Stonewater found nothing erotic about the situation. Especially if they are saying that the orcs checked for cum residue somehow.

Also it's weird to say that she "wasn't their problem anymore" when really she never had to be their problem at all. If they were really going to be so hands-off about it, why not just let Stonewater take her? That'd be the fastest way to get her out of their hair.

Also Mookie's tone of "well I had fun putting Stonewater in this situation and that's what counts" is a bit offputting.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018



The Little Death posted:

In particular, the hymen/cum checking seems like an easy place to just fudge it. For the events to play out the way they do, apparently the Doma have an actual way to accurately check for sex, despite the hymen thing being mostly a myth in reality. I remember at the time people defending it by invoking the hymen idea, but this isn't a virginity check, it's literally the opposite, which is even more bullshit.

Yeah. The idea of people abusing local traditions to try to kill someone is, like...yeah, that is a real thing that happens. Worldwide, cross-culturally.

People don't just give up the moment someone jumps through the first hoop they set. If they want to kill her, there's almost certainly a bunch of different methods they can go for to try and legitimize their attempt. For example: 'welp, you obviously could not control her and she struck you, which is against the law! we're gonna have to hunt her down, no, no, no need to thanks us.'

But nah they're just like 'welp, beep boop, tradition satisfied, urge to murder child gone'

e: and like it is very clear that the reason they are like this is that Mookie is satisfied now that he has contrived the situation to have a rape happen.

Billy Gnosis
May 18, 2006

Now is the time for us to gather together and celebrate those things that we like and think are fun.


Mors Rattus posted:


e: and like it is very clear that the reason they are like this is that Mookie is satisfied now that he has contrived the situation to have a rape happen.

Correction, it's because there is something called the refractory period.

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Kavak
Aug 23, 2009




A more logical scenario (I know I'm abusing that word) would be to make their goal not to kill Melna but to see the chieftain and his ideals humiliated after his death, and Stonewater was forced into it for whatever reason.

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